Now were redcoats
After you finish reading that read this article about how many of the charges the Declaration of Independence made against the tyrant King George also apply to the Bush Adminstration.
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Now were redcoats
After you finish reading that read this article about how many of the charges the Declaration of Independence made against the tyrant King George also apply to the Bush Adminstration.
If we (the USA) are the "redcoats" and the as yet unnamed terrorists are the upstart rebel colonists, then what part does SH and the B'aath Party play in this little analogy?
Throughout the centuries there have been so many Great Powers, who have practised exactly the same methodology in killing, terrorizing and trying to control the planet:Quote:
Originally posted by clocker@4 September 2003 - 07:31
After you finish reading that read this article about how many of the charges the Declaration of Independence made against the tyrant King George also apply to the Bush Adminstration.
Athens, Roman Empire, .... , U.K. and finally U.S.A.
They fall and they rise...
britain is still there though :huh:
Nah... Watch carefuly, Britain is not there.
Britain is here, but its nothing like it used to be, the empires colonies gradually regained their old power back, although I only know the basics on this paticular subject
We have no real empire, but in a lot of ways, thats a good thing.
My point exactlyQuote:
Originally posted by RGX@4 September 2003 - 20:08
Britain is here, but its nothing like it used to be, the empires colonies gradually regained their old power back, although I only know the basics on this paticular subject
We have no real empire, but in a lot of ways, thats a good thing.
listen, yeah, britain will remain through out. yes we were once a great power but we took over countries with the some what vain outlook of trying to base them on our society, we bred them up and got them going and then they all rebelled against us eg. northern ireland.Quote:
Originally posted by sabbath@4 September 2003 - 12:13
Nah... Watch carefuly, Britain is not there.
at the end of the day i can see iraq turning into americza's northern ireland,. you're there trying to show them the benfits and what do they do apart from blow you up and attack you?
at least you have the beneift of your friends trying to help you, unlike britain and the great american support of the IRA.
Irish Republican Army (IRA)
a.k.a. Provisional Irish Republican Army (PIRA), the Provos
Description
Terrorist group formed in 1969 as clandestine armed wing of Sinn Fein, a legal political movement dedicated to removing British forces from Northern Ireland and unifying Ireland. Has a Marxist orientation. Organized into small, tightly knit cells under the leadership of the Army Council.
Activities
Bombings, assassinations, kidnappings, punishment beatings, extortion, smuggling, and robberies. Targets have included senior British Government officials, British military and police in Northern Ireland, and Northern Ireland Loyalist paramilitary groups. Bombing campaigns have been conducted against train and subway stations and shopping areas on mainland Britain, as well as against British and Royal Ulster Constabulary targets in Northern Ireland, and a British military facility on the European Continent. The IRA has been observing a cease-fire since July 1997 and previously observed a cease-fire from 1 September 1994 to February 1996.
Strength
Largely unchanged--several hundred members, plus several thousand sympathizers--despite the defection of some members to the dissident splinter groups.
Location/Area of Operation
Northern Ireland, Irish Republic, Great Britain, Europe.
External Aid
Has in the past received aid from a variety of groups and countries and considerable training and arms from Libya and the PLO. Is suspected of receiving funds, arms, and other terrorist-related materiel from sympathizers in the United States. Similarities in operations suggest links to the ETA.
Quote:
Originally posted by danb+4 September 2003 - 21:19--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (danb @ 4 September 2003 - 21:19)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-sabbath@4 September 2003 - 12:13
Nah... Watch carefuly, Britain is not there.
at least you have the beneift of your friends trying to help you, unlike britain and the great american support of the IRA.[/b][/quote]
What are you talking about?
If you mean that the IRA launders money through the US via motivated individuals, that is far different from "great American support" of the IRA.
Please explain yourself.
To Americans, IRA means "individual retirement account".
Back on topic, I found the comparison (to redcoats) superficial, but that aside I found the article a worthwhile read.
In not saying I agree with the author on all counts, but he definitely makes an effort to be balanced.
Compare his style with that of the Gilliard article (linked on same page).
Partridge:
Gilliards take on same issue:Quote:
In Iraq today, friend and foe look alike. If the American soldier hesitates, the fedayeen will take the first shot, and another American casualty will be added to the list. But if he shoots first, his target may be a twelve-year old boy on the roof, a photographer lifting his camera, or a family rushing to get home before the curfew. More dead innocent Iraqis. More rage against the invaders. All to the advantage of the resistance.
orQuote:
US troops are so trigger happy and so poorly trained, they shoot civilians without pause. A cameraman shooting US troops was gunned down. Whole families have been blown away by US troops.
Quote:
We often shoot recklessly among civilians as well. The desire to go home is obvious, but when troopers kill a child because they freak when Iraqis fire guns in celebration, that's a failure of training.
Gilliard may have some legimate points, but his sensationalistic style and obvious bias really turns off the neutral reader. You wonder how much he is twisting the truth to fit his convictions. He, yes, he actually used the word "freaked".
Anyway, I did a little research on the guy and it confirmed my impression from reading his article.
My point in bringing up Gilliard is that many intentionalty inflammatory articles, such as his, are posted here to specifically irritate Americans. It puts the burdonsome task of rebuttal on the forum members. The poster knows that this take time and effort, and all he had to do was post the link. It is like calling someone a "racist", then leaving the room, offering no further explanation. Cheap shots.
I just wanted to say that although I am not totally in bed with the author in his article about "Redcoats", I found his effort to consider both sides refreshing.
HOBBES I think DANB means the collection cans going round the bars of the USA, especially New York and Boston collecting money for both factions in Northern Ireland. Ostensibly these collections are to aid the suffering in NI. In fact it is used to purchase arms and explosives. So I think it is worth remembering when we think of 9/11 to remember also the death created by such collections.
My point exactly [/b][/quote]Quote:
Originally posted by sabbath+4 September 2003 - 20:12--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (sabbath @ 4 September 2003 - 20:12)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-RGX@4 September 2003 - 20:08
Britain is here, but its nothing like it used to be, the empires colonies gradually regained their old power back, although I only know the basics on this paticular subject
We have no real empire, but in a lot of ways, thats a good thing.
Did you get something strange here?
I.R.A.: Irish Republic Army (for the liberation of Ireland), muslim terrorists.
Terrorists, yeah, not fightin' honorably, of course (9/11 was a disgrace for human kind),
yet, I think the Great Powers had something to do with the creation of these groups.
Exactly my point, he is distorting reality to further his cause.Quote:
Originally posted by bigboab@4 September 2003 - 21:50
HOBBES I think DANB means the collection cans going round the bars of the USA, especially New York and Boston collecting money for both factions in Northern Ireland. Ostensibly these collections are to aid the suffering in NI. In fact it is used to purchase arms and explosives. So I think it is worth remembering when we think of 9/11 to remember also the death created by such collections.
From DanB
"at least you have the beneift of your friends trying to help you, unlike britain and the great american support of the IRA."
This line acknowledges that Britain is supporting America via troops and money in the war against Iraq. The British government is offering the support, not the British people via taking up collections in the pub.
He is implying that while Britain is helping us, we are undermining them, in regard to the IRA. Logic would indicate that he is referring to our government. That the American government is lending money and military aid to the IRA.
It is an apples and oranges comparison. One is a governmental act, the other is an act committed by motivated individuals. I think that when people give to a charity, they take it on faith that the money will be spent as advertised. It will be a sad day when people stop helping others because they feel that charities are nothing but money laundering scams.
A small fraction of motivated Americans may support the IRA, but this in no way reflects the mentality of the American population as a whole, nor the policy of our government.
Thus I find the phrase "great American support" to be offensive and misleading.
Exactly my point, he is distorting reality to further his cause.Quote:
Originally posted by hobbes+4 September 2003 - 22:55--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (hobbes @ 4 September 2003 - 22:55)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-bigboab@4 September 2003 - 21:50
HOBBES I think DANB means the collection cans going round the bars of the USA, especially New York and Boston collecting money for both factions in Northern Ireland. Ostensibly these collections are to aid the suffering in NI. In fact it is used to purchase arms and explosives. So I think it is worth remembering when we think of 9/11 to remember also the death created by such collections.
From DanB
"at least you have the beneift of your friends trying to help you, unlike britain and the great american support of the IRA."
This line acknowledges that Britain is supporting America via troops and money in the war against Iraq. The British government is offering the support, not the British people via taking up collections in the pub.
He is implying that while Britain is helping us, we are undermining them, in regard to the IRA. Logic would indicate that he is referring to our government. That the American government is lending money and military aid to the IRA.
It is an apples and oranges comparison. One is a governmental act, the other is an act committed by motivated individuals. I think that when people give to a charity, they take it on faith that the money will be spent as advertised. It will be a sad day when people stop helping others because they feel that charities are nothing but money laundering scams.
A small fraction of motivated Americans may support the IRA, but this in no way reflects the mentality of the American population as a whole, nor the policy of our government.
Thus I find the phrase "great American support" to be offensive and misleading. [/b][/quote]
ok i admit maybe great was a bit of an exaggeration or a blooper on my part or maybe i meant to type great britain BUT i think British people as wll as the British government are supporting the americans.
as for me implying that the US government were supporting the ira, well thats a biy shady but it was very public knowledge and the collections only stopped after 9/11.
it was an event that changed the world and i mean no disrespect at all when i say its a shame that it had to happen to you guys before you the penny dropped about the collections bigboab has mentioned.
There is more than one paramilitary organisation in N Ireland.
Danb's post on the subject was the tritest, most blinkered view I've heard in ages. And that takes some doing as I live in Belfast. The acts of the IRA (who incidentally were not formed in 1969 but much much earlier) were, ofcourse, atrocious but they were, for the vast part, performed in N Ireland on our own people.
It was not until the offensive was taken earnestly to the mainland that the British public began to realise the gravity of our situation. This is no justification. There is no grey area with murder.
These schisms arise out of frustration and despair and if that old chestnut about coming here to help us out gets dredged up one more time I think I will vomit.
Remember Bloody Sunday. The Saville Inquiry continues.
You bred no-one up. You tortured and subjugated your precious colony for 800 years.
Chalice, I've always found your posts to be fair and informed. This is a bit over the top mate, and I think you know that. Northern Ireland has been in a state of civil war now for decades, a CIVIL war.Quote:
You bred no-one up. You tortured and subjugated your precious colony for 800 years.
Relatives of mine, catholics, were living in the first street burned down by protestant loyalists in 1969 when the present crisis started. They came to live with us in England, having lost everything they owned. I tell you this to show I'm not knocking Irish catholics. But come on man, you know as well as i do that the IRA has more to do with a Mafia than a freedom fighting force. Just as the British government has used the North of Ireland as a training ground for the SAS. Don't point fingers of blame here, remember why Ulster refused to join the South in 1922? Remember the protestant families burned alive in their homes by catholics?
We have a ceasefire now, a lasting peace is on it's way. Within 10 years, I predict, Ireland will be united. I don't want you to take your quote down mate, but at least acknowledge the effort people have put in over the years to address the issues that none of us were responsible for starting.
Billy, I thought I was being quite fair in response to what was a bigoted, sweeping simplification.
I am the first to acknowledge the Civil war here.
With colonisation comes responsibilty. To say that this conflict started in 1969 is trite and an insult to the suffering this country has endured.
I've made myself clear in other posts as far as harbouring no ill-will to any reasonable person. Did Danb think this wouldn't get a rise out of an Irishman?
Our memory of oppression streches back longer than thirty years.
Here is a timeline of Irish history. Pay particular attention to Slavery and The Great Famine.
I realise there are many horrible casualties on all sides.
And likewise there are many decent people who see the bigger picture (like yourself Billy). The IRA has meandered into gangsterhood and so more splinters lodge deeper in Ulster daily.
Thanx mate, didn't mean to sound rude or anything, and I am aware of how long the problems in Ireland have been going on. My point is, other generations were responsible for these things, our generation has the responsibility to clean up the mess. The conditions for ordinary people in the rest of Britain hundreds of years ago were also shocking. The oppressors of Ireland treated the rest of us like shit too. And the fucked thing is, their ancestors are still living in their stately homes now, living off the wealth stolen from the rest of us.
I love the Irish, always have, I worked with them for years after I left school, I know they want peace, and I want it for them.
Rikk.
B)
Red Coats? British People? I Don't Wear A Red Coat Lol :D
You'd be well fed at my house, mate. :)Quote:
Originally posted by Billy_Dean@9 September 2003 - 13:05
Thanx mate, didn't mean to sound rude or anything, and I am aware of how long the problems in Ireland have been going on. My point is, other generations were responsible for these things, our generation has the responsibility to clean up the mess. The conditions for ordinary people in the rest of Britain hundreds of years ago were also shocking. The oppressors of Ireland treated the rest of us like shit too. And the fucked thing is, their ancestors are still living in their stately homes now, living off the wealth stolen from the rest of us.
I love the Irish, always have, I worked with them for years after I left school, I know they want peace, and I want it for them.
Rikk.
B)
Thanx Chalice, and the same goes for you mate.
Rikk.
B)