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If your Foetus is diagnosed with down syndrome do you Abort?
Ignas is getting his first baby, we had a heavy discussion about this.
He decided with his wife to not take an abortion. They took a scan last week, the child is fine.
It is possible to diagnose down syndrome at the first eccolog (scan) by looking at the shape of the spine.
To diagnose other malfunctions one needs to analyse the fluids which can cause miscarriage.
If you know that your future child is diagnosed with down syndrome would you abort it?
I say yes
but when the moment comes i have no clue what i would decide.
arguments i have heard for pro abortion
- unable to take care of itself
- does not develop
- will not reflect you :huh:
- first 6 years are fine then the difference shows
- survival of fittest
anti abortion views i have heard
- depends on the level
- life is life
- what is normal?
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Re: If your Foetus is diagnosed with down syndrome do you Abort?
Depends on the gestational age , if it's <20 weeks abort because the child neurological pain pathways are not developed yet and will feel no pain, >20 weeks you are killing a feeling human , do not abort .
That's what they taught us in med school.
I voted no clue .
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Re: If your Foetus is diagnosed with down syndrome do you Abort?
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Re: If your Foetus is diagnosed with down syndrome do you Abort?
Are we about to bark around the "when does life begin" tree again.
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Re: If your Foetus is diagnosed with down syndrome do you Abort?
To answer your question Kev, it begins when the baby begins forming on yon ladie's belly.
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Re: If your Foetus is diagnosed with down syndrome do you Abort?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
VillageShaman
To answer your question Kev, it begins when the baby begins forming on yon ladie's belly.
Do you mean to say life begins at conception.
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Re: If your Foetus is diagnosed with down syndrome do you Abort?
this world is a pain in the butt for even normal people .. i wouldnt want that child to go through all the inevitable mental trauma that the society he will be bought upon will inflict on him/her ... its a sick sick world ....
abort and help him/her
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Re: If your Foetus is diagnosed with down syndrome do you Abort?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
anoneemuse
this world is a pain in the butt for even normal people .. i wouldnt want that child to go through all the inevitable mental trauma that the society he will be bought upon will inflict on him/her ... its a sick sick world ....
abort and help him/her
Do you have Down Syndrome?
How can you presume to know what it's like?
I have known numerous people so afflicted, and never got the idea from any of them that they would rather be dead.
The very idea that a life ought to be predicated on an uninterested observer's sense of it's worth is mighty offensive.
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Re: If your Foetus is diagnosed with down syndrome do you Abort?
It is not fair to anyone to bring a baby to this wolrd that is going to suffer so much. When the parents die what is next for the baby? living in a group home where they treat people like animals, yes I know I have seeing it first hand, I work with people with those conditions and it is not nice, it only create jobs, but people like that fall under the cracks.
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Re: If your Foetus is diagnosed with down syndrome do you Abort?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
pentomato
It is not fair to anyone to bring a baby to this wolrd that is going to suffer so much. When the parents die what is next for the baby? living in a group home where they treat people like animals, yes I know I have seeing it first hand, I work with people with those conditions and it is not nice, it only create jobs, but people like that fall under the cracks.
Fair?
By whose standards?
There are many people who live better lives than you or I; to which of them would you extend the authority to end your life because you are a "burden to others"?
It sounds like you've discovered the solution to African poverty. :dabs:
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Re: If your Foetus is diagnosed with down syndrome do you Abort?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
j2k4
Quote:
Originally Posted by
anoneemuse
this world is a pain in the butt for even normal people .. i wouldnt want that child to go through all the inevitable mental trauma that the society he will be bought upon will inflict on him/her ... its a sick sick world ....
abort and help him/her
Do you have Down Syndrome?
How can you presume to know what it's like?
I have known numerous people so afflicted, and never got the idea from any of them that they would rather be dead.
The very idea that a life ought to be predicated on an uninterested observer's sense of it's worth is mighty offensive.
everything i know now isnt what i have experienced in my own life .. so does it really matter if i have down syndrome or not to comment on what people with down syndrome might go through ?
its common sense + reading on the subject.. (oh dont go there :lol:, you might want to define reality too then )
i donno if you support mercy killing or not .. i see this in the same sense ...
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Re: If your Foetus is diagnosed with down syndrome do you Abort?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
anoneemuse
[
everything i know now isnt what i have experienced in my own life ..
So, then.
How would you know if what you thought was wrong.
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Re: If your Foetus is diagnosed with down syndrome do you Abort?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
j2k4
Quote:
Originally Posted by
anoneemuse
[
everything i know now isnt what i have experienced in my own life ..
So, then.
How would you know if what you thought was wrong.
you are now actually making me believe that you had down syndrome , otherwise how could you know much about it .. right ? :O
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Re: If your Foetus is diagnosed with down syndrome do you Abort?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
j2k4
Quote:
Originally Posted by
pentomato
It is not fair to anyone to bring a baby to this wolrd that is going to suffer so much. When the parents die what is next for the baby? living in a group home where they treat people like animals, yes I know I have seeing it first hand, I work with people with those conditions and it is not nice, it only create jobs, but people like that fall under the cracks.
Fair?
By whose standards?
There are many people who live better lives than you or I; to which of them would you extend the authority to end
your life because you are a "burden to others"?
It sounds like you've discovered the solution to African poverty. :dabs:
I think China is finding the solution to poverty by limiting the size of families. Let's face it, someone has to do something.:(
As for the topic I would not comment unless I had the individual facts before me. Who is to say that they wont find a cure for all these congenital conditions. Subject to research approval.:)
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Re: If your Foetus is diagnosed with down syndrome do you Abort?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
anoneemuse
Quote:
Originally Posted by
j2k4
So, then.
How would you know if what you thought was wrong.
you are now actually making me believe that you had down syndrome , otherwise how could you know much about it .. right ? :O
Not at all.
Just pointing out the effrontery of your presumptive view, which is that some lives aren't worth living.
Who are you to say.
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Re: If your Foetus is diagnosed with down syndrome do you Abort?
I say yes,but depends on the age of foetus.Until 24 weeks of gestational age,you have permission to do abortion if the child is at danger.After 24 weeks later,at most of countries it is forbidden.
Anyway,I dont want to have a baby who has Down Syndrome.But this does not mean that all Down Syndrome babies dont desever to live.
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Re: If your Foetus is diagnosed with down syndrome do you Abort?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
100%
- unable to take care of itself
Doesn't have to be true. The level of cognition and ability does, as I understand it, differ.
It's probable that the child will never be able to be as independent as someone considered normal, but then again there are plenty people who don't have Down's syndrome and still can't manage to take care of themselves.
Quote:
- does not develop
In the same way, or as far, as you or I have.
Doesn't mean he or she can't grow up to have a tremendously enjoyable life.
Quote:
- will not reflect you :huh:
Won't look like you or I, won't function like us, and won't be able to do everything we do.
But who cares? How often does a child turn out to be everything his or her parents might have wished?
And what's so fantastic about being just like us?
Quote:
- first 6 years are fine then the difference shows
I guess.
Quote:
- survival of fittest
If we start eliminating people on the basis of some percieved ideal of fitness we'll probably end up in a pretty boring world.
Besides, our societies are fairly enlightened ones, with social safety nets and whatnot. We don't live like animals, so shouldn't have to be bound by natural laws that don't have to apply the same way, anymore. The more advanced the civilisation, the more subjective what's fit to exist, I reckon.
And to round things up I'd like to point out that happiness often seems to be inversely proportional to intelligence. In some ways, I reckon that people with reduced mental capabilities, if you can call it that, may lead much better lives, as far as happiness and sense of fulfillment is concerned.
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Re: If your Foetus is diagnosed with down syndrome do you Abort?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Snee
Doesn't have to be true. The level of cognition and ability does, as I understand it, differ.
It's probable that the child will never be able to be as independent as someone considered normal, but then again there are plenty people who don't have Down's syndrome and still can't manage to take care of themselves.
Quote:
- does not develop
In the same way, or as far, as you or I have.
Doesn't mean he or she can't grow up to have a tremendously enjoyable life.
Quote:
- will not reflect you :huh:
Won't look like you or I, won't function like us, and won't be able to do everything we do.
But who cares? How often does a child turn out to be everything his or her parents might have wished?
And what's so fantastic about being just like us?
Quote:
- first 6 years are fine then the difference shows
I guess.
Quote:
- survival of fittest
If we start eliminating people on the basis of some percieved ideal of fitness we'll probably end up in a pretty boring world.
Besides, our societies are fairly enlightened ones, with social safety nets and whatnot. We don't live like animals, so shouldn't have to be bound by natural laws that don't have to apply the same way, anymore. The more advanced the civilisation, the more subjective what's fit to exist, I reckon.
And to round things up I'd like to point out that happiness often seems to be inversely proportional to intelligence. In some ways, I reckon that people with reduced mental capabilities, if you can call it that, may lead much better lives, as far as happiness and sense of fulfillment is concerned.
There was me thinking I had depression. Thanks Snny. I'll send you some pills.:whistling
Looking at what happens to disabled people in some parts of India tends to make you think twice. Almost everyone, me included, judge these events with their own societies values in mind. Would we change our minds if we include third world conditions?
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Re: If your Foetus is diagnosed with down syndrome do you Abort?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
anjelik
I say yes,but depends on the age of foetus.Until 24 weeks of gestational age,you have permission to do abortion if the child is at danger.After 24 weeks later,at most of countries it is forbidden.
Anyway,I dont want to have a baby who has Down Syndrome.But this does not mean that all Down Syndrome babies dont desever to live.
24 weeks, eh?
Where did they come up with that.
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Re: If your Foetus is diagnosed with down syndrome do you Abort?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
anoneemuse
this world is a pain in the butt for even normal people .. i wouldnt want that child to go through all the inevitable mental trauma that the society he will be bought upon will inflict on him/her ... its a sick sick world ....
abort and help him/her
My head nearly imploded when I read that last line.
Abort and help him/her.
How's about helping him/her by letting them live in this world and experience the joy it can bring...and how about helping him/her by loving him/her because him/her is a human being of your creation.
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Re: If your Foetus is diagnosed with down syndrome do you Abort?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Snee
Doesn't have to be true. The level of cognition and ability does, as I understand it, differ.
It's probable that the child will never be able to be as independent as someone considered normal, but then again there are plenty people who don't have Down's syndrome and still can't manage to take care of themselves.
Quote:
- does not develop
In the same way, or as far, as you or I have.
Doesn't mean he or she can't grow up to have a tremendously enjoyable life.
Quote:
- will not reflect you :huh:
Won't look like you or I, won't function like us, and won't be able to do everything we do.
But who cares? How often does a child turn out to be everything his or her parents might have wished?
And what's so fantastic about being just like us?
Quote:
- first 6 years are fine then the difference shows
I guess.
Quote:
- survival of fittest
If we start eliminating people on the basis of some percieved ideal of fitness we'll probably end up in a pretty boring world.
Besides, our societies are fairly enlightened ones, with social safety nets and whatnot. We don't live like animals, so shouldn't have to be bound by natural laws that don't have to apply the same way, anymore. The more advanced the civilisation, the more subjective what's fit to exist, I reckon.
And to round things up I'd like to point out that happiness often seems to be inversely proportional to intelligence. In some ways, I reckon that people with reduced mental capabilities, if you can call it that, may lead much better lives, as far as happiness and sense of fulfillment is concerned.
Just to echo Snee on the survival of the fittest point. Genetic variation and variety is necessary to a healthy human species. Just look around.
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Re: If your Foetus is diagnosed with down syndrome do you Abort?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Snee
And to round things up I'd like to point out that happiness often seems to be inversely proportional to intelligence. In some ways, I reckon that people with reduced mental capabilities, if you can call it that, may lead much better lives, as far as happiness and sense of fulfillment is concerned.
i totally agree on that one . ignorance is bliss :mellow:
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Re: If your Foetus is diagnosed with down syndrome do you Abort?
I voted no clue as this decision is very individualized. As for my current rationale, don't abort the baby. Who am I to judge how satisfied the baby will be without giving it a chance?
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Re: If your Foetus is diagnosed with down syndrome do you Abort?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Frizz
I voted no clue as this decision is very individualized. As for my current rationale, don't abort the baby. Who am I to judge how satisfied the baby will be without giving it a chance?
Problem being, the practice of individualism (and whatever compels it) is where problems arise.
The casting off of any constraint save absolute viability relieves us of any responsibility, you see.
Some of us like that, I guess...:huh:
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Re: If your Foetus is diagnosed with down syndrome do you Abort?
In the old days you simply got pregnant and had the baby, now you can analyse the blood, the liquid in the sack and do digital scans and even 3d scans.
In some way i think if you are going to get a present you should be happy with what you get. Being able to see into the future has its perks and its vices.
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Re: If your Foetus is diagnosed with down syndrome do you Abort?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
anoneemuse
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Snee
And to round things up I'd like to point out that happiness often seems to be inversely proportional to intelligence. In some ways, I reckon that people with reduced mental capabilities, if you can call it that, may lead much better lives, as far as happiness and sense of fulfillment is concerned.
i totally agree on that one . ignorance is bliss :mellow:
In other words they don't know whether they should be happy or not.
I think happiness has absolutely nothing to do with being intelligent or being unintelligent. It is a subjective thing as to each of our individual perceptions of reality at any given moment. Just as you may be happy right now I'm sure someone could convince you that you're really unhappy..given enough skill that is. How do you know you are happy?
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Re: If your Foetus is diagnosed with down syndrome do you Abort?
The few Down syndrome people I'v met seemed so alive and happy , eager to please . Wish my perfect children had inherited those qualities now that their older .
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Re: If your Foetus is diagnosed with down syndrome do you Abort?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
j2k4
Quote:
Originally Posted by
pentomato
It is not fair to anyone to bring a baby to this wolrd that is going to suffer so much. When the parents die what is next for the baby? living in a group home where they treat people like animals, yes I know I have seeing it first hand, I work with people with those conditions and it is not nice, it only create jobs, but people like that fall under the cracks.
Fair?
By whose standards?
There are many people who live better lives than you or I; to which of them would you extend the authority to end
your life because you are a "burden to others"?
It sounds like you've discovered the solution to African poverty. :dabs:
The solution to African poverty?
What about the solution to to the american poverty?
If you are poor, you can make it better, if you are mentally retarded, your life will always be hell, there is nothing you can do about it.
Don't talk to me about standards, I work with people with mental retardation and their life has not sense.
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Re: If your Foetus is diagnosed with down syndrome do you Abort?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Frizz
I voted no clue as this decision is very individualized. As for my current rationale, don't abort the baby. Who am I to judge how satisfied the baby will be without giving it a chance?
And do you think it is fair, those babies will be abondone and abused?
Those people end up in group homes where workers treat them like dirt, go to day programs where nobody gives a crap about them.
How satisfied will be a person that has no control over his/her life, where everything is been done for them, people that don't have any kind of freedom?
I don't think it is fair to bring a person like that to this world, when you know their life is going to be hell, how responsible is that?
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Re: If your Foetus is diagnosed with down syndrome do you Abort?
^^ The poster above makes some interesting points.
To answer the immediate question my opinion is... it depends/if it's not me, it's none of my business/if it is me, then I would make that decision at the time - with the baby's father, and we would have to look at what the baby needs, what we can give, and most importantly, what the Society we are in is able to give this child/youth/adult when the time comes (sometimes sooner than we want - as the fates so determine) that we or his/her family are not able to/unable to/not around to care anymore.
One measure of a Society is how it treats it's most vulnerable citizens. It is reckless to not consider to the extent that laws, services, mores/values are in place to provide daily ethical treatment of its handicapped members. Harsh and responsible answers must be considered to such things as: Are our group home/daily living services well staffed and managed enough to a reasonable extent that parents have some comfort that if something happens to them/their child/youth/adult who is handicapped and requires daily living assistance for the rest of his/her life will not be abused, shuffled around, mismanaged, forgotten. Are there enough services available to the child to allow him/her to flourish in nurturing schools, access to health care, family access to respite and other in-home services as needed.
I know I can love any child of mine. I have two already. But my life is not a guarantee. Our role as parents is to raise our children to an age of independence with enough built-in values and common sense to at least give more back to the world more than that what it gives, and not leave a trail of broken hearts and minds during the journey; because the natural order of things is that parents die before their children, and our progeny is left to manage the world on their own - independent of our daily care.
Parents of disabled children know damn well that they have a tough decision ahead of them - one that requires them to think beyond the love that they can give, and consider also that little corner of the world they are bringing their child in to has to offer as well.
With that said, some countries do a magnificent job of caring for its citizens from cradle to grave - with a few exceptions along the way - and as a result, the decision to bring a high-needs child into the world gives these parents one less worry to consider in their decision. On the other hand, there are some countries that have so many different levels of treatment, rights and privileges that even the healthiest and able-bodied find it a chore to get through in one piece.
Bottom line... it depends. My answer then is.. no clue.
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Re: If your Foetus is diagnosed with down syndrome do you Abort?
Good post.:)
I hope that in the future, with improved genetic knowledge, they will be able to warn people before conception. That would make everyones answer to this question having to be viewed from a different prospective.
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Re: If your Foetus is diagnosed with down syndrome do you Abort?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
pentomato
Quote:
Originally Posted by
j2k4
Fair?
By whose standards?
There are many people who live better lives than you or I; to which of them would you extend the authority to end your life because you are a "burden to others"?
It sounds like you've discovered the solution to African poverty. :dabs:
The solution to African poverty?
What about the solution to to the american poverty?
If you are poor, you can make it better, if you are mentally retarded, your life will always be hell, there is nothing you can do about it.
Don't talk to me about standards, I work with people with mental retardation and their life has not sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
pentomato
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Frizz
I voted no clue as this decision is very individualized. As for my current rationale, don't abort the baby. Who am I to judge how satisfied the baby will be without giving it a chance?
And do you think it is fair, those babies will be abondone and abused?
Those people end up in group homes where workers treat them like dirt, go to day programs where nobody gives a crap about them.
How satisfied will be a person that has no control over his/her life, where everything is been done for them, people that don't have any kind of freedom?
I don't think it is fair to bring a person like that to this world, when you know their life is going to be hell, how responsible is that?
Hell?
Compared to what?
So you think mentally/emotionally impaired people aren't equipped to properly appreciate life (as you define it) and so should be killed in the womb.
Way back when, I supervised three community-based ventures to accomodate an effort aimed at bringing many of these people out of state institutions and into group homes housing between six and twelve residents.
My work varied from writing policy to working directly with these people, whose disabilities ranged from severe to almost debilitating.
I and those I worked with dedicated ourselves to improving the lives of these people, and we observed the progress they made and the joy they experienced.
If you mean to say that you work in the field, and hold the attitude you do, perhaps you'd better look for another line of work.
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Re: If your Foetus is diagnosed with down syndrome do you Abort?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
j2k4
Quote:
Originally Posted by
pentomato
The solution to African poverty?
What about the solution to to the american poverty?
If you are poor, you can make it better, if you are mentally retarded, your life will always be hell, there is nothing you can do about it.
Don't talk to me about standards, I work with people with mental retardation and their life has not sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
pentomato
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Frizz
I voted no clue as this decision is very individualized. As for my current rationale, don't abort the baby. Who am I to judge how satisfied the baby will be without giving it a chance?
And do you think it is fair, those babies will be abondone and abused?
Those people end up in group homes where workers treat them like dirt, go to day programs where nobody gives a crap about them.
How satisfied will be a person that has no control over his/her life, where everything is been done for them, people that don't have any kind of freedom?
I don't think it is fair to bring a person like that to this world, when you know their life is going to be hell, how responsible is that?
Hell?
Compared to what?
So you think mentally/emotionally impaired people aren't equipped to properly appreciate life (as
you define it) and so should be killed in the womb.
Way back when, I supervised three community-based ventures to accomodate an effort aimed at bringing many of these people out of state institutions and into group homes housing between six and twelve residents.
My work varied from writing policy to working directly with these people, whose disabilities ranged from severe to almost debilitating.
I and those I worked with dedicated ourselves to improving the lives of these people, and we observed the progress they made and the joy they experienced.
If you mean to say that you work in the field, and hold the attitude you do, perhaps you'd better look for another line of work.
Killing what in the womb? A malignant tumor is alive to, should we leave it alone because of a few alive cells? Who are you to play GOD?
Mentally/emotionally people feel, love like you and I, but they can't defend theirselves in the real world.
These people haven't made any progress, you call progress to 12 people living in a house, knowing they might be abused?
Living in a house for them, it is the samething that not living at all, the only difference between a hospital and those group homes is that jobs are been created now.
I hate it when you see a person that has been tied up for hours, (something illegal) when their lunch is a few pieces of bread and they don't have a way to fight for their rights, when they are been push around, when their wrists are burn from those ropes they use on them in those houses, when they are been physically hurt and they can't talk.
And you are telling me we have made progress with these people? Get down from your cloud, because the only progress here is job creation, these peoples rights are worst than have ever been.
And the feeling of talking to an investigator to end this people suffering is amazing, it is worthwhile.
Don't you preach to me about their living conditions, you have done a terrible job if you worked in this field, you forgot that they not only don't know their rights, but they can't understand and assimilate what's going on with them and why, and the saddest part is, they can't fight back.
So your reasoning to bring somebody to this world, to suffer and be abuse in theory is beautiful, but in reality people like you create the abuse they have to endure in the course of their lives and all for what? Abort or not your reasoning doesn't make any sense, change jobs because you haven't help these people at all.
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Re: If your Foetus is diagnosed with down syndrome do you Abort?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
pentomato
Quote:
Originally Posted by
j2k4
Quote:
Originally Posted by
pentomato
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Frizz
I voted no clue as this decision is very individualized. As for my current rationale, don't abort the baby. Who am I to judge how satisfied the baby will be without giving it a chance?
And do you think it is fair, those babies will be abondone and abused?
Those people end up in group homes where workers treat them like dirt, go to day programs where nobody gives a crap about them.
How satisfied will be a person that has no control over his/her life, where everything is been done for them, people that don't have any kind of freedom?
I don't think it is fair to bring a person like that to this world, when you know their life is going to be hell, how responsible is that?
Hell?
Compared to what?
So you think mentally/emotionally impaired people aren't equipped to properly appreciate life (as
you define it) and so should be killed in the womb.
Way back when, I supervised three community-based ventures to accomodate an effort aimed at bringing many of these people out of state institutions and into group homes housing between six and twelve residents.
My work varied from writing policy to working directly with these people, whose disabilities ranged from severe to almost debilitating.
I and those I worked with dedicated ourselves to improving the lives of these people, and we observed the progress they made and the joy they experienced.
If you mean to say that you work in the field, and hold the attitude you do, perhaps you'd better look for another line of work.
Killing what in the womb? A malignant tumor is alive to, should we leave it alone because of a few alive cells? Who are you to play GOD?
Mentally/emotionally people feel, love like you and I, but they can't defend theirselves in the real world.
These people haven't made any progress, you call progress to 12 people living in a house, knowing they might be abused?
Living in a house for them, it is the samething that not living at all, the only difference between a hospital and those group homes is that jobs are been created now.
I hate it when you see a person that has been tied up for hours, (something illegal) when their lunch is a few pieces of bread and they don't have a way to fight for their rights, when they are been push around, when their wrists are burn from those ropes they use on them in those houses, when they are been physically hurt and they can't talk.
And you are telling me we have made progress with these people? Get down from your cloud, because the only progress here is job creation, these peoples rights are worst than have ever been.
And the feeling of talking to an investigator to end this people suffering is amazing, it is worthwhile.
Don't you preach to me about their living conditions, you have done a terrible job if you worked in this field, you forgot that they not only don't know their rights, but they can't understand and assimilate what's going on with them and why, and the saddest part is, they can't fight back.
So your reasoning to bring somebody to this world, to suffer and be abuse in theory is beautiful, but in reality people like you create the abuse they have to endure in the course of their lives and all for what? Abort or not your reasoning doesn't make any sense, change jobs because you haven't help these people at all.
So, then, as you say, better to kill them, right?
Tell me - why shouldn't they be killed postpartum?
Why shouldn't (by your own reasoning) mentally and emotionally impaired people be put out of their (your) misery?
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Re: If your Foetus is diagnosed with down syndrome do you Abort?
Oh, and tell Ignas the cool part of the internets wishes him luck on the whole baby thing, Zed.
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Re: If your Foetus is diagnosed with down syndrome do you Abort?
Ignas's kid is going to be a boy. Release date june.
The reason i asked this question is simply because i would like to read your thoughts on this, because....
2 weeks ago my wife and i went to do the scan, the embryo had not developed past 6 weeks. (no blood circulation(no vida) My wife was in her 11th week of pregnancy. The embryo was removed surgically.
Glad it happened early. But still all the mental and emotional preparation with a pregnancy and this to happen is absolutely tragic.
I will not delve on the emotional after effects of having a miscarriage.
But reading about everything that can go wrong in a pregnancy is not good for anything. Just causes worry. Problem is that they have found out so many things that can "prepare" you to have the perfectly developed child, for both men and women, the consequence is that you might end up blaming yourself...
anyway
It basically means more sex.
& Makes us love 50% even more.
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Re: If your Foetus is diagnosed with down syndrome do you Abort?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Snee
Oh, and tell Ignas the cool part of the internets wishes him luck on the whole baby thing, Zed.
My best wishes as well, and my sincerest apologies for going without thought in the direction this thread went.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
15%
Ignas's kid is going to be a boy. Release date june.
The reason i asked this question is simply because i would like to read your thoughts on this, because....
2 weeks ago my wife and i went to do the scan, the embryo had not developed past 6 weeks. (no blood circulation(no vida) My wife was in her 11th week of pregnancy. The embryo was removed surgically.
Glad it happened early. But still all the mental and emotional preparation with a pregnancy and this to happen is absolutely tragic.
I will not delve on the emotional after effects of having a miscarriage.
But reading about everything that can go wrong in a pregnancy is not good for anything. Just causes worry. Problem is that they have found out so many things that can "prepare" you to have the perfectly developed child, for both men and women, the consequence is that you might end up blaming yourself...
anyway
It basically means more sex.
& Makes us love 50% even more.
So sorry for your loss.
Never had to go though that; I think I'd have feared for my sanity.
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Re: If your Foetus is diagnosed with down syndrome do you Abort?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
j2k4
Quote:
Originally Posted by
pentomato
Quote:
Originally Posted by
j2k4
And do you think it is fair, those babies will be abondone and abused?
Those people end up in group homes where workers treat them like dirt, go to day programs where nobody gives a crap about them.
How satisfied will be a person that has no control over his/her life, where everything is been done for them, people that don't have any kind of freedom?
I don't think it is fair to bring a person like that to this world, when you know their life is going to be hell, how responsible is that?
Hell?
Compared to what?
So you think mentally/emotionally impaired people aren't equipped to properly appreciate life (as
you define it) and so should be killed in the womb.
Way back when, I supervised three community-based ventures to accomodate an effort aimed at bringing many of these people out of state institutions and into group homes housing between six and twelve residents.
My work varied from writing policy to working directly with these people, whose disabilities ranged from severe to almost debilitating.
I and those I worked with dedicated ourselves to improving the lives of these people, and we observed the progress they made and the joy they experienced.
If you mean to say that you work in the field, and hold the attitude you do, perhaps you'd better look for another line of work.
Killing what in the womb? A malignant tumor is alive to, should we leave it alone because of a few alive cells? Who are you to play GOD?
Mentally/emotionally people feel, love like you and I, but they can't defend theirselves in the real world.
These people haven't made any progress, you call progress to 12 people living in a house, knowing they might be abused?
Living in a house for them, it is the samething that not living at all, the only difference between a hospital and those group homes is that jobs are been created now.
I hate it when you see a person that has been tied up for hours, (something illegal) when their lunch is a few pieces of bread and they don't have a way to fight for their rights, when they are been push around, when their wrists are burn from those ropes they use on them in those houses, when they are been physically hurt and they can't talk.
And you are telling me we have made progress with these people? Get down from your cloud, because the only progress here is job creation, these peoples rights are worst than have ever been.
And the feeling of talking to an investigator to end this people suffering is amazing, it is worthwhile.
Don't you preach to me about their living conditions, you have done a terrible job if you worked in this field, you forgot that they not only don't know their rights, but they can't understand and assimilate what's going on with them and why, and the saddest part is, they can't fight back.
So your reasoning to bring somebody to this world, to suffer and be abuse in theory is beautiful, but in reality people like you create the abuse they have to endure in the course of their lives and all for what? Abort or not your reasoning doesn't make any sense, change jobs because you haven't help these people at all.
So, then, as you say, better to kill them, right?
Tell me - why shouldn't they be killed postpartum?
Why shouldn't (by your own reasoning) mentally and emotionally impaired people be put out of their (your) misery?[/quote]
That way we woudln'd have a mentally retarded president in the White House again, eight years is enough.
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Re: If your Foetus is diagnosed with down syndrome do you Abort?
Why is that whenever i go to the kindergarten to pick up my kid, and i see the one girl with Down i instantly feel pity?
Is that wrong?
Yes it is.
Could be a form of racist elitism. das uber mensk we are. We feel pity on those who do not have what we have, whether physically, socially, emotionally, financially. Sad form of judgement.
Our Judging of others is the issue here.
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Re: If your Foetus is diagnosed with down syndrome do you Abort?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
pentomato
Quote:
Originally Posted by
j2k4
Quote:
Originally Posted by
pentomato
Hell?
Compared to what?
So you think mentally/emotionally impaired people aren't equipped to properly appreciate life (as you define it) and so should be killed in the womb.
Way back when, I supervised three community-based ventures to accomodate an effort aimed at bringing many of these people out of state institutions and into group homes housing between six and twelve residents.
My work varied from writing policy to working directly with these people, whose disabilities ranged from severe to almost debilitating.
I and those I worked with dedicated ourselves to improving the lives of these people, and we observed the progress they made and the joy they experienced.
If you mean to say that you work in the field, and hold the attitude you do, perhaps you'd better look for another line of work.
Killing what in the womb? A malignant tumor is alive to, should we leave it alone because of a few alive cells? Who are you to play GOD?
Mentally/emotionally people feel, love like you and I, but they can't defend theirselves in the real world.
These people haven't made any progress, you call progress to 12 people living in a house, knowing they might be abused?
Living in a house for them, it is the samething that not living at all, the only difference between a hospital and those group homes is that jobs are been created now.
I hate it when you see a person that has been tied up for hours, (something illegal) when their lunch is a few pieces of bread and they don't have a way to fight for their rights, when they are been push around, when their wrists are burn from those ropes they use on them in those houses, when they are been physically hurt and they can't talk.
And you are telling me we have made progress with these people? Get down from your cloud, because the only progress here is job creation, these peoples rights are worst than have ever been.
And the feeling of talking to an investigator to end this people suffering is amazing, it is worthwhile.
Don't you preach to me about their living conditions, you have done a terrible job if you worked in this field, you forgot that they not only don't know their rights, but they can't understand and assimilate what's going on with them and why, and the saddest part is, they can't fight back.
So your reasoning to bring somebody to this world, to suffer and be abuse in theory is beautiful, but in reality people like you create the abuse they have to endure in the course of their lives and all for what? Abort or not your reasoning doesn't make any sense, change jobs because you haven't help these people at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
j2k4
So, then, as you say, better to kill them, right?
Tell me - why shouldn't they be killed postpartum?
Why shouldn't (by your own reasoning) mentally and emotionally impaired people be put out of their (your) misery?
That way we woudln'd have a mentally retarded president in the White House again, eight years is enough.
This is how your post should look.
Learn how to edit properly, dumbfuck.
You're not allowed to mix your unrelenting and unremitting idiocy with my postage.
If you can't do better than that, get your narrow ass back to the lounge. :mellow:
