Yet Another Of My...

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09-12-2003, 06:47 AM
3rd gen noob

ok, this is yet another of my stupid ideas
feel free to call me stupid or to flame me or whatever
however, i was thinking (sounds dangerous) about the whole riaa vs 'us' thing going on just now...

i think pretty much everyone on the forum realises that it's copyright infringement to upload copyrighted music (and download for that matter)

however, would it be illegal to upload/download encrypted versions of mp3 tracks
if users were to use an encryption program (something along the lines of pgp), then allow them to be shared, would this constitute breach of copyright?

obviously on the other end, the other user would have a decryption programme to decrypt the track...

ok, now tell me i'm stupid
09-12-2003, 06:51 AM
toddiscool

I think that no matter what the medium it is still copywright infingment.

I do not really see how encrypting it makes it less illegal, since the encrypted package still contains the same end product.
09-12-2003, 06:54 AM
3rd gen noob

well, you're not actually transferring the original data
you are transferring encrypted data which requires a third party application to decrypt
09-12-2003, 06:56 AM
toddiscool

If i sent you a copied cd in a box, you would need a third pary knife to cut open the tape.

^sorry sarcasm is not my strong suite, but the idea is the same, it does not matter what the packing is, same end product. An mp3 is not the format that record labels distrute in. So that is the same thing. It is the song that is Copywrighted not the file, or CD.
09-12-2003, 06:57 AM
3rd gen noob

i did warn you it was a stupid idea
09-12-2003, 07:02 AM
toddiscool

I have had worse ideas. As far as encryption goes, in theory if we set up a "group" of people who knew about it, we could label things in our own code, because all the they need is a filename to sue correct? so encrypted or not, does not make a diffrence. But if we had a lanuguage all are own then we could share encrypted files like crazy.

Quote:

I have had worse ideas

There is just came up with one to make you feel better.
I am about to unleash my own stupid Idea in gameworld, so can repay me soon.
09-12-2003, 07:06 AM
3rd gen noob

ok, answer me this:
if i encrypt an mp3 with the best encryption available to the public (last time i checked it was 128 bit, but it's probably 256 now...) and sent it to someone in the same country as me over a p2p network or through an ftp server etc, would authorities be able to either decrypt the file in a reasonable amount of time, or to prove the file was indeed a copyright protected file?
09-12-2003, 07:10 AM
toddiscool

Well you have just oficially jumped out of knowledge feild. (small feild) but I would say that yes they can. I mean the kind of encryption that we would use, would be as easy to decrypt as it was to encrypt for someone with the source file, and a knowledge.

The point would be weather it was worth it for them to decrypt.
The point that I was making is that, the filename on it would be enough would it not, for the all mighty to take action. That is why I talked about "our own language" for filenames.
09-12-2003, 07:12 AM
3rd gen noob

i don't like it when someone calls me stupid, then can't even spell

also, don't you think that if you were gonna encrypt a file, you'd at least change the filename...

edit: also, if i make up an mp3 of my band (i don't have one really) then change the name to eminem.mp3, it doesn't make the file illegal to download
filenames mean nothing to the law
09-12-2003, 07:14 AM
Rip The Jacker

Quote:

Originally posted by toddiscool@11 September 2003 - 22:56
If i sent you a copied cd in a box, you would need a third pary knife to cut open the tape.

^sorry sarcasm is not my strong suite

I found it funny :lol:

EDIT: 800 posts! W00t!
09-12-2003, 07:15 AM
asmithz

NO matter what you do if your distributing it its illegal. As long as the other person can see use i mean.
09-12-2003, 07:16 AM
toddiscool

Wow, wtf are you on. When did I call you stupid?
I was under the impression that you and I were having a nice theoreticall conversation about encryption over p2p's. All while I clearly stated that it was way out of my knowlege base.

I do not know what you are reading. If you wanna argue with someone about trivialness, that is not what I am here for, sorry.
09-12-2003, 07:17 AM
3rd gen noob

Quote:

Originally posted by toddiscool@12 September 2003 - 07:16
Wow, wtf are you on. When did I call you stupid?
I was under the impression that you and I were having a nice theoreticall conversation about encryption over p2p's. All while I clearly stated that it was way out of my knowlege base.

I do not know what you are reading. If you wanna argue with someone about trivialness, that is not what I am here for, sorry.

"Well you have just oficially jumped out of knowledge feild. (small feild)"

what did this mean?

also, i don't really care about this issue, as i'm in the uk
09-12-2003, 07:20 AM
toddiscool

Oh ok sorry I see my typo, I meant my knowledg feild, I know little about encryption si what i meant. I see the typo and how it could be misinterpreted. I totally appologize.

Quote:

also, i don't really care about this issue, as i'm in the uk

Neither do I, I am in canada. I was just offering opinion on idea.
09-12-2003, 07:21 AM
3rd gen noob

Quote:

Originally posted by toddiscool@12 September 2003 - 07:20
Oh ok sorry I see my typo, I meant my knowledg feild, I know little about encryption si what i meant. I see the typo and how it could be misinterpreted. I totally appologize.

i'm sorry too. i shouldn't have reacted like that
i just had an idea and wanted some views on it
09-12-2003, 07:29 AM
exeus

a bit off topic what im about to ask but i think you are the ppl to answer it for me to me for someone to take you to court for stealling digital stuff wouldnt they have to download the "entire" file from "you" cos to me just haveing a file named whatever or only getting a part of a file from you does not prove you have the file does it????
09-12-2003, 07:31 AM
3rd gen noob

if you share any part of copyrighted material you are in breech of copyright

i know this is against my theory...but my idea was more about how long it'd take to decrypt...
09-12-2003, 07:33 AM
toddiscool

In theory yes under american laws, but also in theorie a judge needs to approve a supena (sp? i know there is a "b" there somewhere). Laws are being bent very far on this one. Anywasy this has been addressed with no clear answer.
09-12-2003, 07:38 AM
exeus

encryption can take hours days weeks months years to break it all depends on the amount of cpu power you are willing to put into it but for them i would say it would take a few weeks for them to break it
09-12-2003, 10:14 AM
MUSLEMAN

Quote:

Originally posted by exeus@12 September 2003 - 03:38
encryption can take hours days weeks months years to break it all depends on the amount of cpu power you are willing to put into it but for them i would say it would take a few weeks for them to break it

once you have the source code for the program that is doing the encryption, its easy to break those codes as you kinda have the key to them, if i'm wrong please excuse me, but that is how i understood it
09-12-2003, 10:19 AM
pol

i quite like the idea, although i never really d/l music, but i suppose misnamers would have a field day
09-12-2003, 10:21 AM
MUSLEMAN

Quote:

Originally posted by pol@12 September 2003 - 06:19
i quite like the idea, although i never really d/l music, but i suppose misnamers would have a field day

i would have to agree with you on that it would be fun has hell, but wait people are doing right now on klite and its hell :lol:
09-12-2003, 10:28 AM
pol

Quote:

i would have to agree with you on that it would be fun has hell, but wait people are doing right now on klite and its hell

why are you a misnamer ?? :o :P :P

what i meant was it would be hard if not impossible to preview your d/l's
09-12-2003, 10:55 AM
MUSLEMAN

Quote:

Originally posted by pol@12 September 2003 - 06:28

Quote:

i would have to agree with you on that it would be fun has hell, but wait people are doing right now on klite and its hell

why are you a misnamer ?? :o :P :P

what i meant was it would be hard if not impossible to preview your d/l's

why would it be hard to preview your downloads?? and i'm not a misnamer, i was saying its going on right now and its hell :lol: and as fc put it when you use a :P make sure you follow with :lol: other wise it means you are serious :P :lol:
09-12-2003, 11:03 AM
exeus

Quote:

Originally posted by MUSLEMAN+12 September 2003 - 10:14--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (MUSLEMAN @ 12 September 2003 - 10:14)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-exeus@12 September 2003 - 03:38
encryption can take hours days weeks months years to break it all depends on the amount of cpu power you are willing to put into it but for them i would say it would take a few weeks for them to break it

once you have the source code for the program that is doing the encryption, its easy to break those codes as you kinda have the key to them, if i'm wrong please excuse me, but that is how i understood it [/b][/quote]
i know it makes it easyer but by how much i do not know for sure as it has been ages since i have had anything to do with encryption but the main prob is it only takes one person to pass their key on knowingly or othewise and it is all over
09-12-2003, 11:06 AM
pol

well i dont know sh*t about encryption (was it that obvious :D ) but i thought that having such a level encryption would make it difficult to preview
09-12-2003, 11:16 AM
MUSLEMAN

Quote:

Originally posted by pol@12 September 2003 - 07:06
well i dont know sh*t about encryption (was it that obvious :D ) but i thought that having such a level encryption would make it difficult to preview

oh well with out the source code good luck but since you would encrypte it and then send it to me i would need to take the encryption off and if we can do it then so can anybody else if we are talking about sharing around the globe :lol:
09-12-2003, 11:41 AM
ilw

It depends on how the encryption is applied, in the Fasttrack sense the encryption is a single key that everyone has and uses, so of course the key is easy to copy and use. With decently implemented encryption, everyone has their own key and a public key and then the receiver has another key, anyway it gets complicated, but the long and the short of it is that encryption is pretty secure. I'm sure the intelligence services do research into cracking the keys, but even they would probably have to really want the encrypted information. If its the riaa your worrying about, they can't do anything.
Read up about waste if u really want to see how encryption could be implemented. Waste isn't that great though maybe if it had carried on being developed it would have been a major p2p app.
09-12-2003, 11:45 AM
monica_green_22

I hate to contribute to an idea dubbed "stupid", but I believe it has some merit, however limited, even in theory.

So here goes:

We use a hybrid public key/private key encryption protocol with algorithms that we all know and trust to be secure, lets say we use public keys with 4096-bit DH/DSS, and use these to generate session keys for a private key cipher like AES (Rijndael 256-bit).

We also use a secure key server which will handle the creation, and distribution of keys, and will also be responsible for revoking keys.

This is very secure and only people with the appropriate private keys can decrypt the data if its encrypted, however, anyone can encrypt data using only the public keys, which we can give away. Also, anyone can distribute the encrypted data, without being able to decrypt it.

So now, theoretically, all we need to do is trust someone enough to to give them the private keys for certain files. These can be exchaged for levels of "trust".

We can then use this system to allow anyone to download anything they want, they just wont be able to decrpyt it unless they are trusted by some centralised or distributed authority (this function can be distributed, and may consist of peers).

Perhaps this stretches the term "peer", but people could then set-up "trust" levels, and peers would be judged based on those. Anyone using a file downloaded using this method to prosecute someone would have their trust levels dropped and their keys revoked, and would therefore have to undergo the length process of building up trust. Those files would also then become impossible to decrypt for new downloaders unless someone encrypts them again with a different key.

People could earn trust in a number of ways, like contributing more material to the library of copyrighted material already available, or something like that.

Hmm, maybe this is better restricted to the socpe of a theoretical implementation :)

Monica
09-12-2003, 01:04 PM
MUSLEMAN

great theory but it will never happen, to much involvement :( :lol:
09-13-2003, 03:13 AM
3rd gen noob

great post, monica
this was pretty much exactly what i was thinking of
though, as has been said, apathy rules and so it's a little far-fetched...
09-13-2003, 03:42 AM
clocker

3GN,

I'm sure that, as we type, technically competent folks are working on solutions to the current p2p problems that probably include encryption and identity masking.

If you look at the Questions/Problems section of the forum and figure that, for every one person who posts there are probably 10 who can't even figure out how, then you see the problem.

The FT network was a success because it was relatively easy to access.

Make it more secure and anonymous and probably 75-85% of current users will not be able to figure out how to use it.
09-20-2003, 12:00 AM
RealitY

Quote:

Originally posted by exeus@12 September 2003 - 08:29
a bit off topic what im about to ask but i think you are the ppl to answer it for me to me for someone to take you to court for stealling digital stuff wouldnt they have to download the "entire" file from "you" cos to me just haveing a file named whatever or only getting a part of a file from you does not prove you have the file does it????

Actually it does on Fast Track since you must have the entire file in order to share it.
So the question is if on networks that have partial sharing such as eMule, it could not be proven one has the entire file. Unless it was dl in full from the one source, highly unlikely. Then the question is if it can be still proven to be illegal when only a few bytes have been dl from someone. Is it illegal to own 30k of copyright song then...

@3rd
The idea of an encrypted mp3 seems no different that one in rar format really, same end file. Encryption may only be good for hiding stuff from your ISP. Filetopia has very good encryption built into their program, but the user you upload to is decrypting the file, thus you would have to trust anyone on the other end. Only benifit of sucha program is that those inbetween can't see the file. The same goes for Waste, you must trust everyone you supply a key, no better than a password protected ftp really.