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What do you think of the situation in Ireland? North and South.
Will they be united again? Should they?
What about the IRA, do you agree with the British government negotiating with them?
Do you think the ceasefire will hold? Should Sinn Fein be allowed in government before a total IRA handover of weapons?
:huh:
I believe in Self Determination, not only for Ulster but for Gibralter.
Both peoples may be getting sold down the river and deceived by the UK Government..........
If the PEOPLE of Ulster wish be reunited with Eire, they should be.
If the PEOPLE wish to remian a part of the United Kingdom, again...this should be allowed.
If the PEOPLE of Gibralter wish to remain British, they should be (and BTW, the percentage of Gibraltarians that wish to remain British is a LOT higher than those of Northern Ireland)
I also believe that all parties on both sides have the right to sell their arguments to the people......but any violence by either side (remember that IRA is not the only terrorist organisation) should be hit on hard.
Maybe they should have a referendum every 10 years or so....
I think it would be much better if the various organisations actually believed in what they claim they are fighting for (as they did originally).....these days they appear to be more concerned with racketeering and organised crime, than in the future of Ireland.
They are, in effect, more like the Mafia than a political organisation these days.
However, what makes you think they will have a say?
Ulster and Gibralter.....
I agree in this case plebiscite seems the only really fair way to decide,
To be honest, a referendum, however nice that would appear, would fulfill no purpose.
Northern Ireland has always been about political swing and gain.
The whole province has been gerrymandered into a joke. Goalpost shift nearly every election. And let me tell you, elections are a belly-laugh.
Stormont has been suspended yet again.
Sinn Fein (the erstwhile, alledgedly) politcal wing of the PIRA is gaining seats in the South as well as the North.
The reason Northern Ireland doesn't need a referendum is that no-one would be able to decide on the actual syntax of the proposal. I mean it.
The census tells us all we need to know as far as political prophecy.
I'll post more as this thread grows.
What is the protestant \ catholic split in the North now Chalice? Population wise.
B)
Sod Diplomacy........the Question is simple.
Do you wish to be:
a/ Part of Eire
b/ Part of the United Kingdom
c/ Fully Independant from both
The boundaries........whole of Ulster, sod the political maps.
Anything else can be looked at AFTER the basic question.
If nothing else, it shows the world that the people are voting on it...
I think the cost of running a Referendum every decade or so is minimal to the International Political arena...
How can IRA justify its existance? How can UDF justify its existance? How can UK justify its policies? etc etc etc
Billy, the census has shown a dramatic increase in the Catholic population.
Where it stood 10 years ago it was about 70/30 in favour of the Protestant community. Now its more like 54/46.
Ratfaced. As I said, that would be nice.
However, how do you hope to achieve this any time soon when the Republic of Ireland has given up her constitutional claim on Ulster?
The problem I see there RF is that the split in Ulster is along basically religious grounds, which is why I asked Chalice that question.
What's the point of a referendum if the answer is a foregon conclusion based on which side has the most voters?
And what about asking the rest of Britain if they want Ulster to remain within the United Kingdom?
I also have a problem with asking three questions, or giving three choices to the same question.
B)
I believe the Republic's giving up of their constitutional claim was a good idea.
I see it as a way of isolating the people of Ulster from outside interference in their affairs, and allows them to make decisions on their own.
Do you believe the formation of Ulster as an independent entity under EU law would be a good first step towards integration?
B)
I agree with the constitutional claim being dropped as a positive step. I also believe that this is more of an issue for the people of England and the people living in the North than it is for the people living in the South.
Put bluntly I think they have come to the conclusion that it really isn't worth the bother of fighting any more. They have a good stable economy, working well within the EU framework. They appear to have a relativity happy populace, who enjoy a good standard of living.
They may have looked at the situation in places like Germany and thought, wait a minute, do we really want to re-unite after this time. The English caused this problem when they partitioned the country, in such an obviously biased way. Let them deal with it.
I agree that you really can't blame Eire for making a decent life for her citizens.
Yet what goes up must come down. Eire has been riding a nice economical crest and this in no way harms the entirety of the island. The Celtic Tiger is being seen to be waning, though and ,as I said, Sinn Fein gains southern ground every year.
If Sinn Fein do become a wieldable political force in the south, how long can that constitutional ammendment remain ammended?
I see a strange event unfolding in Europe which may help. Britain is a union of countries and states. The British government is a central government. Yet this role is gradually being made redundant by the EU. Each country in Britain now deals, in some ways, directly with the EU. Is there going to come a time when a central government, or even a Britain, no longer exists?Quote:
If Sinn Fein do become a wieldable political force in the south, how long can that constitutional ammendment remain ammended?
I think you'll find the Irish voted for partition Clocko. As I've said many times, Ireland has been engaged in a civil war for decades, 800 years, one poster put it. That Britain caused it is neither here nor there. This is now, WE have to clean it up, not the perpetrators, they're all dead. And I don't think many Irish people would take you up on your offer of letting the English sort it out.Quote:
The English caused this problem when they partitioned the country, in such an obviously biased way. Let them deal with it.
B)
I think any referendum of the UK would result in Ulster not belonging to the UK any longer.....despite what the people of Northern Ireland wanted.
This would be wrong, as the UK is responsible, and should face up to its responsibilities.
If the Union does break up, can we re-define the Borders again?
The North of England would probably rather be ruled by Edinburgh than London....we have a lot more in common with the Scots than the South of England.
Even the old Borders would do.....Hadrians Wall
(Im North of that, i can live with it ;) )
Please accept my apologies in advance Billy_Dean.
Like a lot of people here I have been through these arguements so many times that there is no point any more. I cannot be bothered discussing this situation, because in my experience the sides are so entrenched that the arguement is pointless. Neither side listens anyway.
My position is very clear, the North of Ireland was split in such a way as to ensure Protestant domination. The Catholics who were unfortunate enough to live there were second class citizens. They had virtually no human rights. The English Government supported this position and formed Police forces to enforce it. The Provisional IRA re-formed as a direct result of this and fought to protect the catholic community from the very Police who should have been doing it. They had not been active since the second world war. The Loyalist paramilitary then fought against the IRA and the whole thing just escalated and became convoluted and confused from there.There is no need to look 800 years into history. The modern problems are from the middle of the last century.
Now the organisations work together in drug trafficking, money laundering, racketeering and so forth. They are basically just gangster organisations and when profit is available they are happy to work together.
Someone will no doubt take an entirely different view, that is the way these things go. Both sides can read the same history and see entirely different reasons and motives.
BTW who is Clocko ?
I have no disagreement with you there JPaul, only to add that a referendum in the early 20's asked each county of Ireland to vote on seperation from Britain, or not. Protestants, who were being persecuted over the years had drifted north for the protection afforded them by being in the majority. These counties voted to remain part of Britain.
The treatment of catholics you speak of is certainly true. My point is, that this is a civil war, both sides are right and both sides are wrong. All that now has to be put aside. The last thing Ireland needs right now is a British imposed solution.
As for the borders in England RF, I believe that may well happen one day, maybe not an amalgamation with Scotland, but at least a regional government. If that's what the people want, anything's possible.
B)
I think it's about time all the countries of the so-called "UK" became separate states inside of the EU. The false structure of a United Kingdom seems pretty irrelevent in the modern World order.Quote:
Originally posted by Rat Faced@14 September 2003 - 20:22
I think any referendum of the UK would result in Ulster not belonging to the UK any longer.....despite what the people of Northern Ireland wanted.
Then at least the people who whinge about being governed from Westminster can whinge about being governed from Brussels instead.
You're not going to please all the people all the time, that's what democracy is all about.. ;)
Would that all that they did was whinge.Quote:
Originally posted by barbarossa@15 September 2003 - 10:55
Then at least the people who whinge about being governed from Westminster can whinge about being governed from Brussels instead.
You're not going to please all the people all the time, that's what democracy is all about.. ;)
There is no democracy in Northern Ireland and that's what Northern Ireland is all about.
Chalice
What is the situation there now regarding, the Assembly?Quote:
There is no democracy in Northern Ireland and that's what Northern Ireland is all about.
B)
At present, Billy, the Northern Ireland Assembly at Stormont is in a state of suspension. This is the fourth heavily-pregnant pause since the genesis of The Good Friday Agreement.
The Ulster Unionist Party (UUP) are (debatably) in disarray. Distracted my internal gripes and egoism. David Trimble teeters on the brink of obsolescence; heckled down to a whisper by his own party. Shades of Thatcher's toppling cannot be ignored.
The Democratic Unionist Party (DUP, created by Ian Paisley et al and perpetuated by Ian Paisley Jnr) seem to be widening their foothold in Portadown. The parades have passed off relatively peacefully this year (and by that I don't mean without violence). The DUP is to be seen gleefully toldyousoing.
Sinn Fein will not accept the "re-vamped" and "re-alligned" police force; stating it's just another Westminster facade and so discouraging any Nationalist/Catholic warming to it.
The SDLP, the priciple party of the Catholic community, in the absence of any sign of devolution or democratic process, are inevitably losing subscribers and the hard line can be seen to rise in the ghettoes (I use that term loosely).
The remaining parties, PUP, IUP, The Workers Party and an alphabet soup of others just offload their votes when the border suits them.
This is a big can of worms, Billy and that was the simpest way I could put it at a push.
I will eventually post my own views on NI in this thread but I warn you, its not pretty.
I look forward to your views Chalice, please don't keep us in suspenders for too long.
B)
I think if I was living in Northern Ireland I would gladly vote for an United Ireland. At the rate the UK is going down the hill there is no future being part of it.
To lighten things up a bit. I like the idea of the Welsh assembly:-
It starts of with prayers, then a nice policeman comes along and talks about road safety. :D
From my living room window, as I write, I can see, slash-daubed in white on the gable wall of the opposite house, the acronym "FTPIRA". Fissured across that in red is an imposing "FTH HOODS WILL BE SHOT". The former describes copulation with a paramilitary organisation. The latter represents much the same thing, this time the recipients being adolescent car thieves. From my bedroom window, at night, I can hear, like some insane cockerel, the staccato screech of tyre on tarmacadam. I see, emerge from streetlight to streetlight, short, spiky hurling-bats crutching tall men. From my bathroom window, as I wash my hands at the sink, I can see the parish priest's new house, suitably dimensioned and very nice indeed too, thank you very much. Adjacent to that is the church. Behind it is the primary school, named after an Irish Christian martyr who earned a particularly excrutiating beatification.
As I scan the headlines in my morning newspaper (less a rag, more a chamois), I meet, "Police criticised over UDR murder probe"; a sixteen year old bone of contention.
"Assembly poll 'in November'"; renewed speculation that the assembly elections could be called in November. Well, the SDLP and Sinn Fein are calling for it anyway.
"Loyalists warn children"; children as young as eight have been singled out by loyalist paramilitaries in South Belfast's Village area with leaflets warning of the consequences of "anti-social activities".
Inside the Holy Cross Primary School debacle rages anew and the rest of the paper is smattered with a new spate of death threats on varying levels of both institutions. All of this is so familiar as to be overlooked. I nestle myself in the sports pages.
As a prerequisite to fair employment in this city, you are asked to endorse your religious persuasion (just to ensure everyone is treated equally, you understand). To educate your children, you must either stuff them into archaic pigeon-holes or isolate them with gaelaige, hobby-horse romanticism. Integrated schools smack of tokenism and pedestal their charges while celebrating the gulf between them. To hold conversation is to modify the fervour of your convictions to accomodate the farrago of taboos which vary from mind to mind. Political correctness is a sublime, sacrosanct imperative. Don't tell me to take the moral high ground with my childrens' education. How lofty. I have no choice. I'm not going anywhere soon, not on my budget. My kids are neither brainwashed nor redeemed nor hardwired nor rootless. They are realistic and encouraged by my partner and myself to respect and explore all beliefs be they similar to or diverse from their own.
Politicians, here, are either verbose or demonstrative. They resort, having failed in penetrating their counterparts' sensibilities, to muck-slinging and personal jibes with their bully-boys standing arms-crossed in the recesses. Other ephemeral parties fizzle in to ignite fuses and whimper out again. How sad it is when noble discourse descends to school-yard ejaculation.
I forsee no future for Northern Ireland.
Paramilitarism, nicely funded now by contrabands, armed-robbery and protection rackets will proliferate and harden. The Nationalist people will never endorse the police force because their wounds are still fresh and are reopened with each new allegation of collusion. Children will never be taught independantly of politics or religion. Both communities will become further entrenched in petty squabbles and syntax. More innocents will die. Mistrust will be sprung like traps in the minds of each new generation and there is no going back. I'm sure Britannia is feeling the onus of this old ball and chain. Well, it's heavier than she thinks and grows with each frigid day.
I expect nothing from Ireland. I am grateful to have lived and learned.
I will instill the same gratitude in my children.
Romantic Ireland's dead and gone.
All's changed, changed utterly.
I'm really sorry for the way you feel Chalice, and I apologise if anything I've said has upset you, it wasn't my intention.
It's been a long time since I've been to Belfast, 1975 in fact, in those days there wasn't much to see except utter devastation. Driving out of the docks, brimming with army and police, with the gate shutting behind me, I felt a fear I had never experienced before. Left alone to drive through empty streets, with what appeared to be every single building destroyed or damaged. It beggars imagination to think what it must have been like to live through that.
My query is this, and again, I have no wish to offend, why do you still live there? The whole of Europe is your home now. Is it just money that keeps you there?
:huh:
I like the North of Ireland, I think it is a lovely place, a lot of it is reminiscent of the west coast of Scotland. I really like the area around the Giants Causeway, Bushmills that sort of thing.
I have also spent a bit of time in and about Bangor, again I really like the area. I have stayed in Belfast a few times and never really felt any problem with it. However I have to say I have never been there during the "marching season", so I really don't know what it's like during the tense times. I have obviously been in Glasgow when the marches are going on and quite frankly that's bad enough.
I would reiterate your views and congratulate you in genuinely non sectarian thread on what is for many an emotive issue.Quote:
Originally posted by chalice@19 September 2003 - 13:29
I forsee no future for Northern Ireland.
Paramilitarism, nicely funded now by contrabands, armed-robbery and protection rackets will proliferate and harden. The Nationalist people will never endorse the police force because their wounds are still fresh and are reopened with each new allegation of collusion. Children will never be taught independantly of politics or religion. Both communities will become further entrenched in petty squabbles and syntax. More innocents will die. Mistrust will be sprung like traps in the minds of each new generation and there is no going back. I'm sure Britannia is feeling the onus of this old ball and chain. Well, it's heavier than she thinks and grows with each frigid day.
Poor us and poor them, man will always kill man, wars will come and go but the innately wicked nature of mankind has stood steadfast throughout history. Since the peace process crime has rose, and to me I feel this shows the true nature of the widely published minority that live here, thuggery masked in patriotism and moral high ground now once again becomes thuggery. I feel we, or any country (France, Columbia) will never rid itself of these type of people however that does not stop us the majority living in peace and I have been touched many times by the kindness from the “the other side the fence”.
I have no point to make nor any comfort to give on this matter, for a point can not be made from the pointless and the wrathful can not be comforted, but I am glad that the tribalism illustrated in Northern Ireland has not stopped us all from being individuals and as individuals, and only as this, can we leave this behind.
To seek a resolution awakens the problem to walk with your neighbour require no resolution
I know i'm repeating myself, but the only way the Irish problem will be resolved is when they kick religeon into touch and join the 21st century. when i was a teenager (1956ish) and got a girlfriend the first question my mother asked was '' Is she a mick'' (catholic). that attitude died with her. my 8 children wouldnt know a catholic from a protestant from a muslim, and thats how it should be.
I dont know about Gibraltar i think thats economy related. billyfridge Brit
I did pretty fucking well there within the innocent realms of pre-spellcheck. :happy:Quote:
Originally Posted by chalice
What's changed? Very little. True story.
My kids are older, as am I, as is my country.
Fewer murders, more crime, more teenage pregnancies, more disease, less sick jokes, more immigrants (which just goes to display how much worse the rest of the world must be).
We achieved a faux autonomy while not really achieving anything worth a fuck except not actively killing each other.
Recognised politicians have dithered outside constructive engagement 90% of the time, while being paid upwards of 70K per year- at your expense- British tax payers, btw.
Even Ian Paisley knew when to quit.
:eyebrows:
Bumped this thread and made that post last night out of little else than nostalgia.
Awoke this morning to hear that SAS troops have been re-deployed to N Ireland to assist the police force with the dissident Republican threat- perceived by some to be increasing.
How's about that, then?
So much for British withdrawal.
Half a dozen, to work undercover, ain't it?
Why don't they just use some of the 1000 MI5 thats spying on the rest of us?
At least they're your MI5.
How would you like it if a crack team of foreign (Iraqi, say) deadly security experts were infiltrating your homeland?
I take it 'half a dozen' was a euphemism, like. At least, I hope it was.
I do see that point of view, but..
Frankly, if they break my door down, i'd prefer for them to be foreign.. at least then its not my side fucking my life up :(
However you do see the irony of the situation. Ulster is quieter than its been for decades and the security forces are stretched to the limit and beyond... lets re-start the troubles.
Genious, even for Brown.
That's precisely it, RF.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rat Faced
This move was kept secret from the policing board until a couple of days ago. As if we didn't already have enough trust issues between ourselves.
All this will achieve will be a garnering of support for the dissidents.
Spirit of '69 all over again.
Edit: Seconds after posting the above I heard on the news of an attack on a N Ireland army base where 2 soldiers were shot dead and 4 others injured including 2 pizza delivery men. These were the first soldiers to be killed in Ulster since 1997.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7930995.stm
:frusty: Coincidence? I think not.
Living in the south of Ireland, and very south of the border means Im not involved too much in it.
IM a catholic, and believe that the whole country should be united as one again, but that uin turn will lead to different problems. I notice the original posters ignorance of the UVF also, placing all the blame on the IRA. It just so ahppens that there is an equally violent unionist organisation too. the IRA may have bombed the wrong people time and time again, but the more evidence that comes out agout the likes of the omagh bombings the more it points towards a hoax, that they were set up by the PSNI, and that is disturbing to think.
I always look at the IRA and the UVF in this way,
are you a freedom fighter or a terrorist?>
it all depends on what you believe. In my case I would say the IRA are Freedom fighters, and the UVF are terrorists, but others will say the opposite.
I think this is best left to politics, but not the politicians that are there now, its time for some fresh blood in stormont to get the ball rolling properly to find the best solution.
They're both terrorist organisations.
I can think of a time that the IRA were Freedom Fighters, but not since Catholics received equal voting rights to Protestants.
In a Democracy, the Majority gets its way.
I have absolutely no problem with letting Ulster go and Eire being one country, however it has to be the decision of the people there.
And no, I am not naive enough to think that there is no more sectarianism in Northern Ireland. However its the franchise that changes things, not Bombs.
I didnt read this whole thread, I wasnt talking about you either Rat faced.
I was talking about the guy who started this thread and is now banned, in his post he focused on the IRA.
Although a nationalist (my whole family are from the north, catholics so it runs in our blood and what im brought up with) I dont agree with the latest killings, and I think this is the silly crap that is holding back what is best for the people of NI
The south eh? how far south? County Kerry? dingle? lolQuote:
Originally Posted by no_bother
I had a girlfriend from Tralee....sigh
Living in dublin, originally from waterford (south east)Quote:
Originally Posted by Col. SkillzThe south eh? how far south? County Kerry? dingle? lolQuote:
Originally Posted by no_bother
I had a girlfriend from Tralee....sigh