Ontologically, prove or at least make a case that GOD can exists, burden of proof I would say lies most heavily on people of faith.
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Ontologically, prove or at least make a case that GOD can exists, burden of proof I would say lies most heavily on people of faith.
How could one do that without being ontological? :huh:
Well a lot of the discussion of God gets to the point where religion is brought up, unnecessarily, although they play a central role in the belief of God today, religion has no merits on the origins or God, or the possibility of God even existing. For instance, if you ever argue with a deist or a theist they all believe in a personal God. Not only do they know a God exists, they know which one is the right one, from a potentially infinite list as long as the human species. This gives them reason to deny the opposing argument in an attempt to defend "their God". Everyone in the world is an atheist, everyone can name a God that they do not believe in (Zeus, Ra, Osiris, etc.), with this in mind when arguing the existence of God, theists often make the case to advance the superiority of their God.
In brief, discussion with God in terms of intelligent design, justification of rationality and morality, and the design of the universe.
The very nature of faith is the concept that proof is not required.
Ask yourself this, what is the point of a God whose existence is proven?
I'll leave that to the theist, my argument has no bearing on that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbarossa
And why is faith such a good thing, the concept that something to be held true without evidence is a very primitive way of thinking that belongs to the barbaric side of human history.
Do you have proof that everything you see is made of atoms and molecules?
Or do you have faith that the physicists know what they're talking about
That is just over-simplifying a situation, evidence is available to be proven if challenged, cannot say the same thing about God.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbarossa
Explain how light can be a particle and a wave at the same time.
Explain how the universe came from nothing.
Science doesn't have all the answers.
They have, but the answers have tiny holes in them. They're 99%.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbarossa
You have to trust the devices that were used to get the answers and the 1% gets lost somewhere in between.
Show me a single piece of non-circumstantial evidence disprove the existence of God, and then I will make my decision on this.
The theory of evolution is just that.. you know just a theory. Scientists themselves have argued against this theory, that it violates natural laws, such as the second law on thermodynamics and so on.
God is a spiritual being, not a physical one.You obviously can't use natural laws to prove a spiritual being.You use natural laws to prove physical objects and God is above these laws.Since He created everything, He can bend natural laws at His will..which account for events, situations, miracles, etc. which science cannot explain.
We see God's creation all around us. His creation is a manifestation and proof that there must be someone responsible for all these things. In science class, we studied about the universal physical constants like gravitational constant. These constants are so perfect that if it's a little lower or higher, our world will be in chaos. What's the probability that accident and randomity has brought about our orderly world? I won't leave all the explanation to "chance". The perfect explanation for everything is the existence of God. :yes:
if you are the type that believes your computer would have self upgraded its OS from windows 98 to windows 7 then my bad but otherwise go read on the DNA double helix then come and explain as to how chaos could have come up with such order.
The truth is God has put a God-shaped hole in the heart of every human being.His plan is for man to find and worship Him. History shows that mankind has acknowledged an all-powerful supernatural being since time immemorial. You can find ancient people worshipping the moon, sun, stars, calf, snakes, their ancestors, or any other thing. Nobody taught them about God. Their natural instinct told them there is someone great out there...and that someone is God. Now, it's up to the individual to acknowledge or reject the existence of God,its a faith thing you aren't supposed to be swayed by evidence.
Also did you know that blackholes, as accepted as they are by scientists as being fact are yet to be proven by solid evidence?just goes to show how naive you are to put your trust in such people.
If you didn't know,in essence you are saying you are just meat as you have no soul.
Plus i think it should tell you something that everything on this planet has an opposite(all explained in less than 1000 words in genesis).
Like how do you explain evil and good.(your sushi and mollusc ancestors know something?)I mean these two forces ought to have come from somewhere,right?and please don't tell me you think that evil and good are also a myth :P
I want to call you an idiot,but i'll wait and see if you have any strong evidence to disprove the existence of God.
imo i think people like you are just guys who have a problem with religious folks.
I don't think you made your case to say that GOD exists, so far you haven't prove anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by sez
Don't tell me the bible was written by god, because that is crap, most books of the new testament, people wrote them houndred of years after "Jesus" died, so you are going to have to make a better job proving anyone wrong.
Calling somebody an idiot for not believing in God, that makes you a religious intolerant and we have lots of those in this world, not more needed. It is about respecting everybodies believes.
Can you prove to me that god doesn't exist?
You have that the wrong way around.Quote:
Originally Posted by tmacThat is just over-simplifying a situation, evidence is available to be proven if challenged, cannot say the same thing about God.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbarossa
A Hypothesis/Theory gains weight by not being proven false, not by being proven correct. It's virtually impossible to prove something is 100% fact.
The Theory of Evolution, for example, is still a Theory.. Granted, It's stood the test of time and is a very Strong Theory, but its still a Theory.
On a level playing field then any "God" does not have to be proven, "his" or "her" or "its" existence is valid until disproven.
The problem I have with all of this is that I don't believe the subject of "God" is valid for any type of Scientific Analysis.
It's the same arguement I use with Creationism in Science Classes.. Its not that I dont think people should be taught Religion, it's just that its not Science... and should therefore be restricted to Religious classes.
So you want prove? I could ask you, if God is such a great god, why do so many kids suffer so much, why the people that say they are servants of god, abuse so much and they get away with for years and years, ans justice is never serve?Quote:
Originally Posted by knivesreturns
You prove me that GOD exists, come on try.
GOD is an imaginary idol than men created to control a bunch of people.
God is what some people need, when they don't any hope at all.
Look at the middle east, there is a god there?
Look at Ireland, Christinas against Christinas for so many years.
Look at Spain, so many people killed in the inquisition.
Look at the midle east, do I need to say more?
Look at the united States congress. When the republicans were in power, they would say that GOD spoke to them, well, god must be an asswhole then. They were against abortion and killing kids in Iraq and afganistan, it is amazing how religion brainwashes people and nobody seems to understand anything about it.
I am tired of people saying, god is misterious, of course he is...
Gos is a debt collector now. Mister ious.:cry:Quote:
Originally Posted by pentomatoSo you want prove? I could ask you, if God is such a great god, why do so many kids suffer so much, why the people that say they are servants of god, abuse so much and they get away with for years and years, ans justice is never serve?Quote:
Originally Posted by knivesreturns
You prove me that GOD exists, come on try.
GOD is an imaginary idol than men created to control a bunch of people.
God is what some people need, when they don't any hope at all.
Look at the middle east, there is a god there?
Look at Ireland, Christinas against Christinas for so many years.
Look at Spain, so many people killed in the inquisition.
Look at the midle east, do I need to say more?
Look at the united States congress. When the republicans were in power, they would say that GOD spoke to them, well, god must be an asswhole then. They were against abortion and killing kids in Iraq and afganistan, it is amazing how religion brainwashes people and nobody seems to understand anything about it.
I am tired of people saying, god is misterious, of course he is...
I'm preaching doubt, the burden of proof is on the theist and deistbecuase you already know the answer, its in the book. Asking me how I not know how the universe came about is an impossibility.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbarossa
Tell me what tools are readily available to you and not me where you can substantiate a God theory to the degree of accuracy evolution and atomic theories....God has not stood the test of time, the list of "Gods" that have been retired are in the thousands; now I'm expected to make a case for this one God that hinges on the fact that I have to believe in it without any sort of reconcile proof? PUHLEASEQuote:
Originally Posted by Rat FacedYou have that the wrong way around.Quote:
Originally Posted by tmac
A Hypothesis/Theory gains weight by not being proven false, not by being proven correct. It's virtually impossible to prove something is 100% fact.
The Theory of Evolution, for example, is still a Theory.. Granted, It's stood the test of time and is a very Strong Theory, but its still a Theory.
On a level playing field then any "God" does not have to be proven, "his" or "her" or "its" existence is valid until disproven.
The problem I have with all of this is that I don't believe the subject of "God" is valid for any type of Scientific Analysis.
It's the same arguement I use with Creationism in Science Classes.. Its not that I dont think people should be taught Religion, it's just that its not Science... and should therefore be restricted to Religious classes.
When did man first find out about God? How many people were present when this knowledge was obtained?
Quote:
Originally Posted by sez
I can't not disprove God, I don't have a book that tells me the origins of the universe, you have to tell me how the earth was arisen in 7 days, I don't have to disprove that, because I would just laugh. You know how it went, I don't think science understands or ever will understand where the origins of life and the universe came from. But I'd assume it would take >7 days to develop.
Okay you went from God going from a spiritual being (not a physical one) to one who "has put a God-shaped hole in the heart of every human being" and to one whose "plan is for man to find and worship Him". Okay two points I want to make here then I'll try to attack your design argument. First of all that last sentence sounds a lot like servility, the desire to be an abject slave. Your first sentence sounds a lot like God has a plan for all of us. Tell that to the people who died in the Holocaust, I mean if God is so powerful then why does he let evil exist, why not just kill the devil.
"Also did you know that black holes, as accepted as they are by scientists as being fact are yet to be proven by solid evidence?just goes to show how naive you are to put your trust in such people."
Black holes are just areas of intense gravitational pull, we know they exist because we can see stars around them have their gravitational properties disturbed, immensely.
"Like how do you explain evil and good.(your sushi and mollusc ancestors know something?)I mean these two forces ought to have come from somewhere,right?"Morality has nothing to do with whether we believe in God or not, human nature is imprinted in every human we are still wired to think for survival at all times.
Science doesn't have all the answers, percisley. But to fall back on a divine power to prove these questions is VERY unoriginal in terms of history. Science needs time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbarossa
It is stupid to believe that god exists, when so many people believe in so many things.
Those that believe in god, anyone, please make your case, just don't come up with random stuff, remember we don't believe, you do, and if you believe in god, just prove your point, saying that the world was created is not enough, I think you need more than that.
I know I have blood in my veins, but do you know that god exists, why?
That's not what he's doing, he's saying that everything isn't neatly laid out for us to know, and that modern science does not, as of yet, have the means to quantify every facet of reality. That's all.Quote:
Originally Posted by tmacScience doesn't have all the answers, percisley. But to fall back on a divine power to prove these questions is VERY unoriginal in terms of history. Science needs time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbarossa
We cannot prove or disprove the existance of any god with what facts we currently have, therefore your arguments are pointless.
There's really no difference between "you can't prove there is a God, so there is none", and "you can't prove there isn't a God, so there is one", from a purely objective standpoint. It's just beliefs.
The former, when aggressively argued in favour of, is generally subscribed to by a bunch of smug twats who think they're using moar logic, though, whereas the latter generally features complete loons. And there's enough morons on each side. See above.
Trolling about religion is always a few easy laughs for the unimaginative, though. Bit desperate, but there you go.
Oh k..i see your point!Quote:
Originally Posted by pentomato
Oops,now i don't see it at all..Quote:
Originally Posted by pentomato
Quote:
Originally Posted by sezOh k..i see your point!
Oops,now i don't see it at all..Quote:
Originally Posted by pentomato
You still didn't convince me or anyone else, that god exists.
You should read through my posts again, never did I say I believe that there is no God, I'm preaching doubt where the other side tends to say "I know what happened and here is how it went".Quote:
Originally Posted by SneeThat's not what he's doing, he's saying that everything isn't neatly laid out for us to know, and that modern science does not, as of yet, have the means to quantify every facet of reality. That's all.Quote:
Originally Posted by tmac
We cannot prove or disprove the existance of any god with what facts we currently have, therefore your arguments are pointless.
There's really no difference between "you can't prove there is a God, so there is none", and "you can't prove there isn't a God, so there is one", from a purely objective standpoint. It's just beliefs.
The former, when aggressively argued in favour of, is generally subscribed to by a bunch of smug twats who think they're using moar logic, though, whereas the latter generally features complete loons. And there's enough morons on each side. See above.
Trolling about religion is always a few easy laughs for the unimaginative, though. Bit desperate, but there you go.
And I really don't think there's anything wrong talking about God as long as it is kept ontological and not hey your religion sucks mine better. Clearly, you haven't been exposed to the array to arguments that can be constructive for both sides.
Yes, because claiming that the burden of proof leans heavily towards one side based on a fairly flimsy argument about some scripture or other, which most certainly does not apply to all religious people, everywhere, does in no way show a bias :rolleyes:
Other than that, you clearly didn't read my post, since I didn't state anywhere that you believe one thing or another.
You do, however, make blanket statements about the religious.
When you do find some, feel free to share, btw.Quote:
Originally Posted by tmac
On the issue of morality...Quote:
Originally Posted by SneeYes, because claiming that the burden of proof leans heavily towards one side based on a fairly flimsy argument about some scripture or other, which most certainly does not apply to all religious people, everywhere, does in no way show a bias :rolleyes:
Other than that, you clearly didn't read my post, since I didn't state anywhere that you believe one thing or another.
You do, however, make blanket statements about the religious.
When you do find some, feel free to share, btw.Quote:
Originally Posted by tmac
Can you think, or name a moral action or statement a believer can do that a non-believer cannot?
I dare say you cannot.
Now name a wicked action that only a believer would undertake?
Suicide bombing, circumcision, etc.
I find it insulting that many people who believe in God to question another person's morality or claim they cannot be moral without a supernatural.
Light is not a particle and a wave at the same time, however it has properties of particles AND waves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbarossa
I think it was Zeus or medusa, they made it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbarossa
:blink:Quote:
Originally Posted by tmacOn the issue of morality...Quote:
Originally Posted by Snee
Can you think, or name a moral action or statement a believer can do that a non-believer cannot?
I dare say you cannot.
Now name a wicked action that only a believer would undertake?
Suicide bombing, circumcision, etc.
Circumcision is a fairly common practice even outside religion, but. It's sometimes considered to be more hygienic, for one thing. Female circumcision is generally a bad thing, though. It's, however, not limited to the religious. It can be due to a really bad turn of spousal abuse, among other things, and it's generally about power, religion is just one excuse.
Suicide bombings are less usual than circumcisions, outside of religion, but have been known to happen. Plenty of mentally ill people to go around, don't need religion to blow yourself up, really.
Religion is just a popular excuse to commit atrocities, other known reasons include ethnicity, hay-those-guys-have-more-stuff-than-us, money, mental illness, nationalism, jealousy, fighting terrorism, and so on, and so forth.
People don't need religion to be bad. And anything someone religious can do, can be done by someone who isn't. And you don't need to believe to use religion as an excuse, either.
Religion can also be a reason to not hurt people. Turn the other cheek and all of that. There's plenty of people who behave better, because they have religion.
One has to wonder what any of that has to do with your original argument, though. Or indeed why you think that's an answer to my post.
How very, very interesting. Is that why you made a thread attacking religion?Quote:
I find it insulting that many people who believe in God to question another person's morality or claim they cannot be moral without a supernatural.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snee:blink:Quote:
Originally Posted by tmac
Circumcision is a fairly common practice even outside religion, but. It's sometimes considered to be more hygienic, for one thing. Female circumcision is generally a bad thing, though. It's, however, not limited to the religious. It can be due to a really bad turn of spousal abuse, among other things, and it's generally about power, religion is just one excuse.
Suicide bombings are less usual than circumcisions, outside of religion, but have been known to happen. Plenty of mentally ill people to go around, don't need religion to blow yourself up, really.
Religion is just a popular excuse to commit atrocities, other known reasons include ethnicity, hay-those-guys-have-more-stuff-than-us, money, mental illness, nationalism, jealousy, fighting terrorism, and so on, and so forth.
People don't need religion to be bad. And anything someone religious can do, can be done by someone who isn't. And you don't need to believe to use religion as an excuse, either.
Religion can also be a reason to not hurt people. Turn the other cheek and all of that. There's plenty of people who behave better, because they have religion.
One has to wonder what any of that has to do with your original argument, though. Or indeed why you think that's an answer to my post.
How very, very interesting. Is that why you made a thread attacking religion?Quote:
I find it insulting that many people who believe in God to question another person's morality or claim they cannot be moral without a supernatural.
He didn't attack religion in this thread, but you are attacking his ideas.
If you don't have any arguements to prove that god exists, then don't attack who put his existence in doubt.
Look at the numbers cheif, the suicide bombing community is exclusively religious. It is because they believe they are ordained by God to carry out their wicked acts and that they have the approval of the supernatural.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snee:blink:Quote:
Originally Posted by tmac
Circumcision is a fairly common practice even outside religion, but. It's sometimes considered to be more hygienic, for one thing. Female circumcision is generally a bad thing, though. It's, however, not limited to the religious. It can be due to a really bad turn of spousal abuse, among other things, and it's generally about power, religion is just one excuse.
Suicide bombings are less usual than circumcisions, outside of religion, but have been known to happen. Plenty of mentally ill people to go around, don't need religion to blow yourself up, really.
Religion is just a popular excuse to commit atrocities, other known reasons include ethnicity, hay-those-guys-have-more-stuff-than-us, money, mental illness, nationalism, jealousy, fighting terrorism, and so on, and so forth.
People don't need religion to be bad. And anything someone religious can do, can be done by someone who isn't. And you don't need to believe to use religion as an excuse, either.
Religion can also be a reason to not hurt people. Turn the other cheek and all of that. There's plenty of people who behave better, because they have religion.
One has to wonder what any of that has to do with your original argument, though. Or indeed why you think that's an answer to my post.
How very, very interesting. Is that why you made a thread attacking religion?Quote:
I find it insulting that many people who believe in God to question another person's morality or claim they cannot be moral without a supernatural.
Also you asked me to point out an argument that could be constructive, but all you did was try to poke holes in mine rather then find another explanation to the original question of morality.
So, what you're saying here is that your best argument as to why God doesn't exist, or why the burden of proof rests more heavily on the religious (I'm not really sure what you're trying to accomplish at this point, starting to wonder if you know), is that religious people sometimes do bad stuff?
For your next trick, will you be attempting to prove the world is round by noting the sky is blue?
Also :lol: at "the suicide bombing community".
Also, last I looked, when someone is wrong in a debate or discussion, a good counter argument is pointing out how they are wrong. This may be a problem for you, if you can't actually come up with something that doesn't stand up to be scrutinised, but c'est la vie.
EDit: Just to be clear on this, again, religion is just one excuse to do bad stuff. And whether there is a God or not has no bearing on what a small group of religious people sometimes do. That's like trying to prove there are no countries, by noting that nationalists sometimes do ethnic cleansings.
I could tell you you're an idiot, again, but we all know this.Quote:
Originally Posted by pentomato
What I recommend is that you go back to school, for five years or so, focusing on reading-comprehension. Once you've learned english, I'm sure you'll be able to contribute to the discussion, at least a little bit.
No, the best way to counter an argument is to counter with an idea that is better fitted to the question itself, something you have yet to do...I'm beginning to think I'll have to make your point for you before you will.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snee
So again; Am I to believe that a believer and non-believer are different in terms of morality?
Please, discuss.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tmac
You seem to be arguing that any and all claims of morality/immorality are (or can be) made only under religious auspices.Quote:
Originally Posted by tmac
I find the premise a bit iffy.
This is all a bit removed from your original question as well, the formulation of which might have also mentioned Allah, Buddha, et al, in order to give the impression you aren't merely picking on Christians.
Iffy, iffy, iffy.
Right. So what you're saying here is that you can't defend your initial position, so you changed focus, and now that I've poked holes in it, that was cheating, so you're just going to ignore that, and keep repeating yourself. Clevar.Quote:
Originally Posted by tmacNo, the best way to counter an argument is to counter with an idea that is better fitted to the question itself, something you have yet to do...I'm beginning to think I'll have to make your point for you before you will.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snee
So again; Am I to believe that a believer and non-believer are different in terms of morality?
Please, discuss.
---
Barbie made a good case as to why you can't discount the possibility that there is a God. Since you asked someone to make a good case for why there can be a God, the thread should just about have been done then. Everything after that is just chaff, really.
Since you didn't get it, I carried it onwards, mainly by pointing out that your other assertion...
...is flawed, by saying that each position is equally valid since we don't know anything for certain.Quote:
burden of proof I would say lies most heavily on people of faith
And now you're lost in the woods, going on about morality. Which isn't working out too well for you at that.
Again, wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by tmacTell me what tools are readily available to you and not me where you can substantiate a God theory to the degree of accuracy evolution and atomic theories....God has not stood the test of time, the list of "Gods" that have been retired are in the thousands; now I'm expected to make a case for this one God that hinges on the fact that I have to believe in it without any sort of reconcile proof? PUHLEASEQuote:
Originally Posted by Rat Faced
Name one "God", "Goddess" or "It" that is worshiped now or ever has been in the past, been proven not to exist. There are still Heathens that believe in Oden and Thor etc, still Pagans that believe in the Earth Goddess, and probably still people that worship the Sun, Moon, Fire etc etc etc under varying names and in different ways.
Just because someone does not believe does not invalidate a "God". Just as when Darwin published "origin of the Species" and no-one believed in evolution, did not invalidate his Theory.
Scientific Method requires things to be disproven, not proven.
If I stated I believed "God" was a Fire Elemental, that is valid until disproven.. It doesn't matter what other beliefs I held, they are all valid until disproven. Additionally just because it's proven that one belief is incorrect does not invalidate the entire premis.
A Theory in Science is often shown to be incorrect in part and then built upon without the entire premis failing.
Again, you need to have a level playing field.
In a religion the basic belief is a "God(s)", everything else is trappings.. just look at Christians, Jews and Muslims which all believe in the same God. Not just 3 religions, but these religions also having many factions with differing beliefs.
Even if other parts of a faith are shown to be incorrect, it does not detract from the basic belief. If I could prove something as fundemental as Jesus never having existed, that "God" has followers that does not require Jesus to have lived.
I would not have not disproven the Christian "God", just one of the trappings.
He can't, he's been BANNED.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rat Faced
Hahahahaha.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tmac
Your statement is incorrect to begin with....the very essence of faith is the lack of proof.