Are some people just defective?

A lot of the "old timers" around here have gotten skeptical about people who have "made mistakes" in the past and the ability of those people to start acting like "good" members of the community.

In other threads, I have tried to defend these people and the possibility of redemption (at least in terms of this community). I am still not ready to abandon people who have made mistakes, I probably never will. If I can help someone be a better member of the community, then I will certainly do my best. All I need is some shred of proof that they are truly making an effort. I don't even expect great results- if my efforts were to help, say, 1 in 5 people I think it would be worth the effort. Maybe I am a nOOb, an idealist, or maybe just a fool...:)

Anyway, I would not be here if I did not believe I could ultimately do some good. I like this community, its people and its rewards. Other than an insatiable desire for thought-provoking conversation and good friends, my needs have been met. Seriously- I grab True Blood every Sunday. It was available on 3 of my trackers at the same time! About an hour later, the HD version was available. Most other media is distributed in the same manner.

There seems to be an element in every group, community, city, country, etc., however, that cannot, to save their lives, just be an honest, respectable member of that group. Sometimes I understand why the cynics are the way they are.:angry:

So what is it with these people who have been banned from every tracker that they have ever been on, who get involved in trading, cannot follow a single rule of a site or show simple respect/appreciation to someone who helped them? Is there some kind of social defect? Do they not know how to be part of a community? I might be able to understand if we were sharing finite, tangible resources, but what we have here is infinitely reproducible. There will never be a shortage of any kind!

And really...of all the communities one could join, the requirements here are very, very minimal...seed back what you take...don't trade...don't cheat the tracker (how stupid is that one?)...don't spam or flame...respect the mods. There really isn't that much more. Those are the basics- how about the "advanced" stuff? make some posts that don't involve requests...help your fellow members with their questions...read the news section and make some comments...don't lie or deceive someone who is trying to help you!!!

Like I said, I am not ready to give up. Actually, my post have resulted in some very nice PM's. Ultimately, that type of response has made my efforts worthwhile. And I will never know if I have helped new members be more responsible from the start.

I would just like to know what is at the core of the people who just don't understand community. This is the ultimate in a "giving" group- the rewards outweigh the costs exponentially. Someone who is "connected" in this community literally has access to all forms of digital media, past, present, and future. Is it asking so much for these people to follow the minuscule rules of conduct around here?

And, please, don't get me wrong- I do not feel like Atlas. I have only been here a few months and I know that I will never do as much for this community as some of the "old timers" have. This is a great community and it would not be nearly as good without those members. Mostly, I am just looking for some insight that people have gained over the years as they have seen nOObs, scammers, liars, cheats, etc. and hundreds, if not thousands, of good members come and go.

End of (mild) rant. :frusty: :D

MBM

Autism imo.

Honestly though, I believe it has all and everything to do with levels. Levels, levels, and more levels. That WTAW thread should seriously be removed.

I believe with a little bit of effort on sites such as demonoid or IPT, you can work your way up to TL. Great speeds and content, incredibly easy to seed. For the average user, you will never need more content than whats there. Maybe if you are particularly interested in certain content, you could find a niche tracker such as bmtv, bcg, whatever to fit your interest. But when people see WTAW threads and drool over sites such as UK-T, FTN, FTWR which they will probably never ever get in their lifetime, they turn to trading.

Trading results from being unable to access their "leet" and "rare" sites. Threads like WTAW overhype and glorify rare trackers, even when they may have less content and worse speeds than more common ones. In response, these leet sites cut off invites even more to combat traders and collectors, just exacerbating the problem even more.

As for cheaters, some people are just lazy. But it also has to do with this craze to get into higher trackers, where 99% of the users have seedboxes, and they don't know how to seed after coming off demonoid with a 500 ratio. What do they do then to download from their favorite rare tracker? Cheat =/

PS: It is very disheartening to spend a good couple of minutes thinking and typing out a post, only to submit it and see its only a fraction of the size of your massive post :(

I'm just voicing my opinion. If you think I'm wrong, explain why.

Im glad you've contributed well to this thread.

This coming from the moron who only wants trackers that are level 10. You're the exact sort of problematic user he discusses, a cheater, trader, and level seeker.

Once someone has traded, it's curtains for them as far as I'm concerned. They've already demonstrated they have no respect for tracker accounts or rules and only want invites so they can get ahead in the "levels".

Honestly, the high level trackers aren't anything worth drooling over. They're smaller communities, that's the only advantage. IRC channels where you can actually get to know people and small (if generally inactive) forums. There's always less content than a place like TL. These trackers are tailored for a specific sort of user, and if you haven't been invited then you aren't that sort of user.

My best advice to those of you who insist of level seeking is get active in IRC, as this is really the place where you meet folks that can help you. Forums are too stagnated and there's very little informal discussion going on, but obviously forum activity doesn't hurt. Torrent comments are also a good thing. Basically you get active and people will slowly reward you. Every single one of these "high level" sites was offered to me out of the blue, I never directly asked anyone for an invite. So yes, it does happen like that. However I know for a fact it's my IRC activity that got me into these sites because my inviters are all folks I'm friendly with in IRC.

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Originally Posted by ca_aok

Honestly, the high level trackers aren't anything worth drooling over.

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This is very true. If you're mostly about content (i.e. downloading juarez) you don't have much to gain from a high level tracker.

I got into one that's considered pretty "high level" around here. What I realized was that it was hard as hell to keep a ratio, and they had less content available with less seeders and uploaded longer time after pre than my usual trackers. I couldn't find out how to remove my account so I simply removed the bookmark. I guess my account was removed automatically due to inactivity; I wouldn't bother checking.

High level only means hard to get into. Hard to get into in many cases also means less users. Less users means less content and less seeders.

I tend to aim for the middle ground. Many private trackers are great and do have content which I can't find anywhere else. These trackers aren't that hard to get into. So why the hell would I trade and risk my accounts? It doesn't make sense UNLESS you only do it for some other benefit besides actually using the account. Ergo they do it just to get a bigger epeen.

A bit off topic, but to answer OP: Yeah, they are douches and kids. Just ignore them and/or laugh at them. As much as I respect your anti-cynical stance, you also need to take into account that this is the internet. People might change due to peer pressure in real life and even then it's hard. On the internet we don't even have peer pressure, but instead we only type text messages to each other. I simply don't think it's worth thinking that much about. Just accept some people are like that and move on to more important stuff.

/curtanwoo

The answer is simple. We as humans are animals. We compete with one another. Would you rather get that average Mustang that has more km/h & horsepower and more widely available spare parts, or that Bentley that you rarely see, which relies on shock value?

That might have been a bad analogy, I'll stop now.

Greed isn't governed by any biological imperatives.

As for being skeptical, one can be a skeptic without resorting to
cynicism .
A cynic refuses to believe , a skeptic merely asks " show me"

one word:

lol

That's not a word.

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Originally Posted by IdolEyes787

Greed isn't governed by any biological imperatives.

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They rhyme with juice.

I would like to thank everyone for their thoughtful responses! I really wasn't sure how people would take my post. I do think that greed, envy, sloth, (hey I've heard these mentioned somewhere before) all play into the human condition IRL and online. It makes sense that these characteristics would show themselves more readily with the anonymity afforded here.

I look forward to discussing this further, but I have just literally rolled out of bed (and yes, I did drink a decent amount of Smirnoff's Red (80 proof)before making my post last night. :D

After idoleyes swept through it now looks like I had a long conversation with myself... XD

I thought you might have just been thinking out loud. :lol: It's OK, we all talk to ourselves now and then. Just don't start arguing! :D

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Originally Posted by KushBlow

The answer is simple. We as humans are animals

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In BT, you can find all the human nature, the good side, the dark side ...

More i'm in torrenting, more i think this is as in my office, there is :
the good, the bad, the ass-kisser, the "I don't care", the asshole, the noob etc...
Some friends said : " This is internet, not RL", but these 2 worlds are not far.
Internet has some advantages, you can be who you want, and when you're fed up => shut down.

@OP : I hope that you don't do something for the other people's opinion or to prove something to the others, i hope that you do it because you want to do it !!
If you want to help someone, don't ask, and do it ...It's your choice !

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Originally Posted by Rart

After idoleyes swept through it now looks like I had a long conversation with myself... XD

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Don't look at me you're obviously delusional .:angel_not

People can change!
People can do mistakes !
People deserve the second chance!

People are not trustfull !!!

*speaks quietly to IdolEyes* I know, I just didn't want to startle him. You know how unpredictable they can be... just back away slowly and don't make eye contact...:ohmy:

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Originally Posted by Yoann64

@OP : I hope that you don't do something for the other people's opinion or to prove something to the others, i hope that you do it because you want to do it !!
If you want to help someone, don't ask, and do it ...It's your choice !

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I hope I didn't come across as "trying to please anyone". I posted this thread because I like to learn (blah, blah, talks about being a graduate student once again) and I believe that some of the "old timers" have more experience spotting "the defective":D than I do.

The only person I ask permission from is my wife. Not out of fear- out of respect. I guess I seek the opinions and wisdom from those who have "been around" for the same reason.

IdolEyes made some great points regarding the difference between cynicism and skepticism. The differences are ultimately huge, but the view often falls on a very fine line. My current difficulty comes from the fact that I am trying to look for reasons to help people instead of weighing the "evidence" honestly. The opposite would be the cynic who refuses to believe that anyone has the ability to change.

I am not a populist or a demagogue (thanks, cinephilia :P) I have my own voice and use it (arguably too much). I do, however, feel that there is still more for me to learn. Asking questions is, IMO, far better than learning from avoidable errors of judgment. I may never see eye-to-eye with guys like cinephilia (actually is there anyone else like cinephilia?), but there is definitely a place for his views. The guy is REALLY good at finding scumbags!:yup:

Make a tracker;
invite all those ex-cheaters and traders only as members
report in a year's time here.
It may work
There is no need to talk, just do it.

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Originally Posted by megabyteme

A lot of the "old timers" around here have gotten skeptical

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like whom? i haven't seen an old timers around here in months

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Originally Posted by th0r

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Originally Posted by megabyteme

A lot of the "old timers" around here have gotten skeptical

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like whom? i haven't seen an old timers around here in months

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For the OP old timer might mean something else than to you. He prolly doesn't realise that this site is 7 years old afaik.

Anyway to the problem at hand. IMO a large percentage of traders do it because of the language barrier. For some people learning and improving their language skills is hard. For me it's easy and fun, but I've helped people with such problems in my country and most of you here can't imagine the amounts of effort they put into improving it.

stoi once mantioned that people from Egypt for example are used to haggle for everything. That might be a factor also.

As for cheating, a lot of people I know in RL that are torrenters consider it something natural. :dabs:

Yeah, from my nOOb eyes everyone with over 4 stars is an "old timer". :P

I am mainly referring to the 15 or so people who seem to stand out and and have been around. Was there a mass exodus at some point or have people moved on gradually?

I have heard Egypt mentioned specifically as a problem. TBy banned the country. They just got tired of cheaters. One of the mods speculated that it might be a cultural difference. He was quite certain he did not want them back.

My original post explains how I see things. I am still struggling with my question the same way I have difficulties understanding why people won't work hard for a better life, stop excessive drugs/alcohol, or generally give up on life.

I have another discussion going on this site and the people posting there seem to feel that file-sharing is a form of theft. Perhaps it is this underlying thought that makes people disrespect the community and perhaps attracts some of its less than desirable "characters".

I disagree. I look at this a a community that has stepped outside of Capitalism. No one is rich or poor. There is nothing cool or exotic about a $10k copy of Maya or the latest UFC. Value comes from how people use the tools. Do they discuss the shows in forums? Do they actually know how to use that copy of Maya? Can they help someone else with a problem? There is no scarcity. No need for hoarding, greed, cheating. Why do that to a community where everything is free?

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Originally Posted by megabyteme

Yeah, from my nOOb eyes everyone with over 4 stars is an "old timer". :P

I am mainly referring to the 15 or so people who seem to stand out and and have been around. Was there a mass exodus at some point or have people moved on gradually?

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4 stars worth of posts only takes weeks to accomplish from what I've seen. :P
(and me, years.)

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A lot of the trading and dishonesty strongly correlates with cultural backgrounds. Of the people I know IRL, they don't care much for seeding but don't cheat. They just don't care about any of the torrent ethics and affairds, nor do they really have to.

ppl like me sure are defective.. :wink:
anyway, megabyteme gratz for ya know what! ;)

And well deserved I might add.

yea.. guess i gotta agree.. :wink:
he was bound to get noticed wid those essays and philosophically inclined posts :lol:

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Originally Posted by IdolEyes787

And well deserved I might add.

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I Agree. :)

Indeed, welcome megabyteme. Dont know you, but you seem to be able to put thought into your posts, which is always needed to fill in the gaps between the spam threads (official or otherwise) :P

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Originally Posted by That1Guy

Indeed, welcome megabyteme. Dont know you, but you seem to be able to put thought into your posts, which is always needed to fill in the gaps between the spam threads (official or otherwise) :P

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yea.. that comes in handy when ya have a lot too say and you don't chat on IRCs.. :lol:

Thanks guys! I appear to be in VERY good company! :D

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Originally Posted by n00bz0r

yea.. that comes in handy when ya have a lot too say and you don't chat on IRCs.. :lol:

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/me wonders who you are now....PM me in the irc to tell me (that is, if you know who I am :O )

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Originally Posted by megabyteme

Was there a mass exodus at some point or have people moved on gradually?

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A refreshing conversation. welcome

i think for the most part, the veterans of fst got tired of the same old site1 vs site2 and generally useless threads that now appear at fst. Sadly its own popularity has hurt fst and has relegated it to a shadow of its former self. This is pretty much the place where trading started, the torrent rankings started and the "anti-trading" started. now we have to deal w/ countless spam threads about outdated superficial topics such as, "which is better...."
While there have always been those types of threads, i think most of the vets got tired of them and just stopped posting. And instead of the void being filled w/ intellectual people who want to contribute it has been filled w/ "me 1st" users who's mentality has been how to get a quick buck.
tbh, its a problem in the whole torrent community not just fst. Sadly as it has become easier to create trackers, it has also attracted the type who are just out for themselves, those that ask themselves "how can i con my way into...." instead of saying "i should try and help with...." which is the real foundation of torrents and p2p, sharing is caring.

Thanks for the history and warm welcome, DV8type!

This is a community. Perhaps this forum has "slumped" from its glory days. But communities have pulled together IRL and turned things around. It is up to this community and its leaders to make changes and decide what kind of community we want to have.

The fact that this is where "anti-trading" started shows that people here have succeeded in making the BT community stronger. Perhaps we need to ask ourselves "what is possible?" I have a strong sense that a lot of people do not take the time to think about what this community represents. If we cannot join together, we will be thinking about "the glory days" when it was possible to get together in a forum like this.

The bottom line: we chose what we find acceptable in our real world neighborhoods. Why should it be any different here? If it is acceptable to walk past sleeping bums, abandoned buildings, broken down cars, and garbage spread around then that is the type of community we deserve. If we choose to clean up the trash, chase off the bums, have the cars towed and the buildings demolished then we have a foundation to have a nice place we can call home.

We need to not only get rid of the "trash", but we also need to mentor those who have a desire to make things better. We also need to change our mindset. There seems to be a self-destructive mindset that what we are doing (file-sharing)is wrong. I believe it is this line of thinking that weakens us. How can we build a stronger community if we, deep down- or sometimes right on the surface, believe that our cause is destructive or wrong?

This is the first-ever thriving community that does not base itself on a monetary system. It should be NO surprise that corporations despise us! We are philosophically opposed to the systems that are in place. Those institutions will do ANYTHING to maintain that control. We have seen it. Look at the worldwide campaign to change (and force) smaller countries to protect industries that are not their own.

If we scatter and do not find ways to strengthen our community, we will be crushed. All of the wonderful things that we can do online will be replaced with the corporate control and lack of freedoms.

And, yes, I realize that I am coming across as an idealist. People can throw bombs at this post and its ideas all day if they really want to. I do, however, hope that it will spark some discussion about "what could be". Really, if there ever existed a community where idealism SHOULD be considered a possibility, IT IS HERE!

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the veterans of fst got tired of the same old site1 vs site2 and generally useless threads that now appear at fst. Sadly its own popularity has hurt fst and has relegated it to a shadow of its former self.

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Dunno how you take difference in opinion but digging through the archives here,i'd say that things are pretty much the same as they were back then only that in your days staffers from trackers actively participated in these so called useless threads.

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This is pretty much the place where trading started, the torrent rankings started and the "anti-trading" started.

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Good point you make but also its important to point out that guns don't kill people but rather the people behind the gun that kill people<--pulled that straight out of a DMX movie.

My point being that fst doesn't have a life of its own(like say demonoid :lol:)obviously those trade threads ought to have been typed up by people before they appeared on this board,and in our case the master scribes were these old skulers that so shun this place these days.Now its one thing for them to avoid this place altogether,could be cause of the guilt but its another when they shun this place and go on to spread shit about fst over a mess that they are almost solely responsible for.Economists will tell you that demand begets supply and in no way would there have been a WTAW thread or a trade forum if those holier than thou old skulers hadn't asked for them.
The way i see it,FST provided a platform for people to talk about file sharing but as to how its turned out,its those that came before us that take the greatest responsibility,good or bad.
As to how things remain unchanged,i hate to be the only one who seems to understand how complex this board is.

I agree with DV8, one of the main problems from my point of view was that many people tried to change FST but FST showed an unwillingness to change. For many this quickly turned to cynicism about this forum so they left.

Another problem was that 'ant-trading' quickly got appropriated as a way to get into trackers and lost all meaning. For me anyone that claims to be an anti-trader is suspect. Actions speak louder than words and if you actually walk the walk there's very little need to talk the talk.

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Originally Posted by sear

Actions speak louder than words and if you actually walk the walk there's very little need to talk the talk.

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This reminds me of the couples I have seen out on first dates. You can see the guy wearing clothes that don't suit his style, his posture is forced, and he is really concentrating on all of the things he knows he is supposed to do- holding the door, napkin in his lap, etc. He is memorable because he is so unnatural in everything he does.

It's fun, yet painful to watch. :shifty:

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Originally Posted by sear

I agree with DV8, one of the main problems from my point of view was that many people tried to change FST but FST showed an unwillingness to change. For many this quickly turned to cynicism about this forum so they left.

Another problem was that 'ant-trading' quickly got appropriated as a way to get into trackers and lost all meaning. For me anyone that claims to be an anti-trader is suspect. Actions speak louder than words and if you actually walk the walk there's very little need to talk the talk.

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Just like in real life, you never know who someone really is or where he/she has been unless you find out or he tells you.

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Originally Posted by KushBlow

Just like in real life, you never know who someone really is or where he/she has been unless you find out or he tells you.

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Time reveals who people really are. It would sure be nice to know ahead of time, wouldn't it.:D

I don't think most of the people aforementioned are necessarily defective, but I also won't argue that there are bad seeds here; believe me, I've had personal experiences.

What people posting here should take into mind is exactly how people end up here. It's not like someone just all of a sudden opens their browser, and are all of a sudden presented with FST without ever having been here before.

Most people wind up here from a search engine, therefore you have to consider the keywords they typed in to wind up here. Or, if they wound up here from a post on some other site they frequent, you have to take into consideration the context of that forum or post. And you can generally assume those keywords/contexts summarize the mentality of people who wind up here.

So, if someone ended up here searching for "free torrentleech invites", or from a torrentleech thread on their favorite gaming forum, do you think they're going to be in the mindset for being a productive member of the community and learning the ropes? I sure don't.

People in general want everything quick. They're not going to want to make a name for themselves, contribute to conversations, or anything like that. They just want the invites, and they want them fast. Sure, the 30 day rule helps, but as I mentioned before, people are just in a rush, and they already have that preexisting mindset they had the minute they typed those keywords into Google. And of course, without delving too far into the morality argument, I don't think people searching for private trackers are going to be too keen on following rules based on not trading or economizing invites/accounts.

In my opinion the most anyone can do to help is to politely remind newer users of the rules that most trackers follow, and to guide them in the right direction; giving them a be-a-productive-member-of-the-community-and-get-invites flowchart won't help at all and it cheapens the entire aspect of any community.

As for people who traded in the past, they just have to deal with that stigma. If they truly become productive members here and on other trackers, and stop trading, then their past trading won't matter as much. Attacking people who call them traders isn't productive at all.

To, me its a hell of a lot of different things. now i am not having a go at FST here, I am not like a lot of staff thathate this place, even though i have gone off it a lot recently, i still dont hate it.

1: The news section is just recycled news from other sites, yes it is informative, but if this site was so "good" surely they could get news exclusives where other sites would take from here.

2: Staff of trackers are treat like crap, we are the enemy, if we say white, the staff of here say black (now i can understand this, but their point blank refusal to even accept an olive branch or even listen sometimes gets on my wick), I would even go as far to say that traders are respcted more, but meh, will shut up there are skizo will have a go at me again for going on and on about the same thing.

3: Members that sign up here, are usually noobs to the private tracker world, if they had most of the trackers, they wont need this place, so the 1st thing they see is the reviews thread (guests can view that which knarks a lot of tracker staff off as well), then after 30 days the fabled (and yes it is fabled, its been coppied on that many sites, they want to see the proper version) of the WTAW thread, and as the do not know anything different, they end up trading.

You see it all the time from noobs, have demonoid, want (lvl 1-3 tracker here) and thats it, they are already on that slippery slope before you can stop them. Just because they do not know any better for the most part.

4: Members want something now, fast broadband, fast food, fast pre times, they are not prepared to wait and work for it anymore. I remember when this was the Klite forum, it even had its own IRC back then (which is where i actually discovered torrents believe it or not) and members for the most part just used to be a lot more nicer, we would help each other out, post K-Lite and Emule links to stuff we ripped ourselves and were seeding, i even had my own FTP with about 10 members from here in it, and my first 5 staff on BCG were members from here. It just seemed back then a lot more friendlier atmosphere and as we all had crap connections, speed was not everything.

I actually left here before the BT forums came about, as i had my own site and was just to busy to frequent here, i also ditched kazaa and emule and most of my friends from here, were staff on my site anyway, so it was pointless, I only came back here because when BCG went down for a week or so, a member Emailed me and said there was a thread on here with members wondering what was going on, tried to sign up and stoi was already taken, thought hmmm, pretty unique name which git stole it lol but tried a few of my old passwords and 1 worked, did not realise this was the K-lite forums for another 3-4 months after that though. (so i cant say if the BT forums in all their glory (gieaways and trades) made it worse or if it was just time and changing attitudes)).

tbh i think the whole internet is changing for the worse, its all ME ME ME and NOW NOW NOW from the vast majority, and communication and helping others has for the most part just gone out the window, which is a shame.