How can people be so naive?

I have recently seen an older thread that seemed completely unrelated to my searches on usenet providers, and what I saw really surprised me. I was looking at the fiasco over donations on Pedro's BTMusic, and I see this:

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Peace to all those who share for the love of music not profit,

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I just don't understand how so many people in that thread can be so shocked and disturbed by something where the staff are profiting from the donations (Not saying that the allegations were right or wrong). How could anyone be so naive to what running a tracker truly requires of a person?

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm sure that there are torrent staff or moderators who keep sites running for "the sake of sharing". But at least in my belief, those are far and few between and it would be too naive to think about it any other way.

Just think about it. While it's not like being in the scene, running a torrent site is still a a pretty shady and tedious business. Just to name a few of the things they probably have to come up with and maintain, although I'm not saying I know the inside-outs of trackers.

Coming up with a concept and layout.

Extensive knowledge of scripts, torrents, web development, programming, ect. ect

Knowledge in the programs/OS's/other crap needed to run a server (sorry I don't know much about this lol)

Hefty monthly server costs.

Constantly fixing bugs and maintaining the site.

Finding willing moderators, FLS, coders, designers, ect. (I'm not sure if they get paid on most sites, but if not you're gonna need some pretty damn good incentives to encourage them to help).

Uploaders with high speed seedboxes and scene access.

Paying for those seedboxes and scene access to keep the site running and maintained.

Promoting and/or generating interest for the tracker.

And on the off chance your tracker creating endeavor is successful, you'll end up with even more users and have to consider increasing server loads and upgrading servers, which in turn means even more money is needed.

Most importantly, running a site is risky. Under the constant threat of the feds and running an extremely thin line between whats legal and not, complete and absolute anonymity is a must. Scene access, copyrighted content, ect. all result in a need for offshore banking accounts, offshore hosting, basically a trust no one and suspect everyone approach. You don't want to turn into the next TPB or Oink do you?

Add that all up together and you finally have a recipe (or at least part of it, I won't pretend to know everything about trackers) for a successful tracker. Now tell me honestly how many people would go through all that JUST for the "sake of sharing". Why not just go to another existing site and upload some stuff for the "sake of sharing"? Maybe there are a couple people who truly which to share files with the world, but those are most likely far smaller in number. Running a tracker is certainly not childs play, and I find it amazing that so many people could be so shocked and outraged if site owners take some of the donations for themselves.

How could one be so naive :ermm:

I went through all that. It wasn't for the sake of sharing really. It was mostly because I was bored. I definitely didn't do it for profit though (to be honest I have serious doubts I'd ever be able to profit from it anyway as we don't offer invites to donors or upload or any of the other massive donation grabbers). I don't think I'd want to turn it into a business either. I don't want to profit from the hard work of the people who produce the shared media. I just wanted to do something nice and a little different. Running a torrent site is kind of a cool conversation starter.

As far as Pedro's goes if you check the site you can literally donate for an account. You don't even need to be a member nor know anyone else there to get invited. You just need money. If that couldn't tip people off then maybe the world isn't quite as cynical as I'd have thought.

Unfortunately I might find out later that I know one of Pedro's staff or have offended one of my friends who does and may have to edit this post. Oh well...

I have checked the site and as far as I could tell the site doesn't allow you to donate for an invite. If that was true that would certainly destroy any thought I had as to PedrosBt not taking money for themselves =/.　However I can see the giant donation buttons on the log in screen, whereas most sites don't let even let you see any of the site until you log in...

Hmm, they must've changed it. Well that's an improvement because for awhile I remember being able to donate for an invite to the site. Good for them I guess.

yep, its been a while since they closed the donate for invite system.

I had a recent discussion with one of the prominent site owners. For him, it all came down to community. That was it. He just wanted a place where people shared common interests (and brought together loosely with file-sharing). It certainly wasn't about money. It was whole heartedly based on peoples' need to socialize. Also, he mentioned the benefits of being online and anonymous- lack of prejudice. All of the biases and assumptions that we have are moot online.

Anyway, the conversation did a lot for me. I hope it helps shine light on some of your questions. IRL, everything is somehow based on money or inequality. It's nice to escape that once in a while. :)

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Originally Posted by DonkeyPacker

I went through all that. It wasn't for the sake of sharing really. It was mostly because I was bored. I definitely didn't do it for profit though (to be honest I have serious doubts I'd ever be able to profit from it anyway as we don't offer invites to donors or upload or any of the other massive donation grabbers). I don't think I'd want to turn it into a business either. I don't want to profit from the hard work of the people who produce the shared media. I just wanted to do something nice and a little different. Running a torrent site is kind of a cool conversation starter.

As far as Pedro's goes if you check the site you can literally donate for an account. You don't even need to be a member nor know anyone else there to get invited. You just need money. If that couldn't tip people off then maybe the world isn't quite as cynical as I'd have thought.

Unfortunately I might find out later that I know one of Pedro's staff or have offended one of my friends who does and may have to edit this post. Oh well...

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So I QFT :)

On the topic:
Am I the only one who finds it rather disturbing that on most sites, when n00bz ask ratio-questions like; "oh noez! my ratio's in danger! wat should i doh?!" Mods often reply like this:"You can always donate to get upload or VIP, that'll probably the best way out.." instead of redirecting them to ratio-guides, giving them useful tips etc. It seems like they want to instill the user that donating money is the only way to getting a better ratio/more upload, instead of taking some time and writing something useful. And yes, this'd be rather hard work to do every time when a noob ask a question, but come on! I've seen this on many sites(to mention one, bitmetv) and at least I find it rather...weird.

charlie, That isn't really a bad suggestion from my POV. The way I see things, everyone has a responsibility to bring something to the site(s) they join. This could be bandwidth, interesting discussion, new files, system necessary skills (for the site), or money.

If someone is new, and they are having trouble "paying back" what they have taken, why couldn't/shouldn't it be money (we aren't talking about large amounts here) to help the site stay running?

To me, it's kinda like Thanksgiving dinner...the host donates the turkey and hams (w/e) and guests are asked to bring some side-dishes. Some people bring rolls, potato salad (usually something to avoid), chips, and even sometimes napkins. Think of the few dollars donated as bringing the napkins. They are needed for the party and the host shouldn't have to supply everything. And honestly, some people are such lousy cooks that you wouldn't want them to bring anything else.

Anyway, take this FWIW. :)

Edit- BTW, there is nothing wrong with donating to a site you use and enjoy. Even if you already bring something else to the "table".

I've thought about making a tracker out of a wiki like wikipedia but a tracker where anyone can come in and alter the code to the site in nearly real time. It would be like extreme open source and everyone could mod everyone. No one would truly run the site.

But, I'm not cool enough to jump into the lime light to create something like that. If I did I would have to make it a living breathing entity that could go on its own without an owner. It is a much bigger and more creative challenge than it seems it would be.

/offtopic

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Originally Posted by megabyteme

charlie, That isn't really a bad suggestion from my POV. The way I see things, everyone has a responsibility to bring something to the site(s) they join. This could be bandwidth, interesting discussion, new files, system necessary skills (for the site), or money.

If someone is new, and they are having trouble "paying back" what they have taken, why couldn't/shouldn't it be money (we aren't talking about large amounts here) to help the site stay running?

To me, it's kinda like Thanksgiving dinner...the host donates the turkey and hams (w/e) and guests are asked to bring some side-dishes. Some people bring rolls, potato salad (usually something to avoid), chips, and even sometimes napkins. Think of the few dollars donated as bringing the napkins. They are needed for the party and the host shouldn't have to supply everything. And honestly, some people are such lousy cooks that you wouldn't want them to bring anything else.

Anyway, take this FWIW. :)

Edit- BTW, there is nothing wrong with donating to a site you use and enjoy. Even if you already bring something else to the "table".

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Yeah, but I just find it rather disturbing that Moderators do this frequently on some sites, they're giving a picture to the new user that money is the only way out, and I don't think that's the right way to donate, to be 'forced' like that.

A while back i put a near analogous question only that at the time I was questioning the morality of people cashing in on piracy.It wasn't what I expected but turns out guys were more than ok with it.
Am personally yet to be convinced that this ain't wrong coz if somebody is going to put a donate function for a humanitarian cause and then go blow the donations on tampons,themselves and theirs they are not only guilty of condescension but they bear no rectitude to question invite traders,sellers and ratio cheats.

Its the money factor that separates a thief from a file sharer and its people like this that make the RIAA and their friends right.I don't know if this is public knowledge but a sysop wouldn't necessarily go to prison for running a tracker,its him/her making money out of the tracker that would make prison pretty much a given(of which I'd advocate the maximum sentence)

It shouldn't be like this though,piracy is about sharing and caring and I know there are people who still believe in this creed.Allowing ourselves to be bundled together with carders and other internet thieves doesn't serve us any good to be honest.
Ps was/is a business no doubt but its amazing how much change people can bring to a site if they make up their minds on it.
My two cents..

Maybe some but most of those sites are easy to seed on and a member is not forced unless he/she goes overboard downloading with a slow upload speed. Some sites I hear are hard to seed on by having a lack of leechers or everyone has a seedbox. You end up downloading things you will never watch or use. Is why a bonus point seeding system is good, free leech periods to let members without seedboxes buff their ratio a little.

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Originally Posted by charliebitme

Yeah, but I just find it rather disturbing that Moderators do this frequently on some sites, they're giving a picture to the new user that money is the only way out, and I don't think that's the right way to donate, to be 'forced' like that.

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Please don't misinterpret my earlier posts. (And I am not saying that anyone has.)

IRW, there are 3 types of business models. First, there is the non-profit. These are purely charity based, and all resources are used for the mission/cause/site and upkeep of the "business". Nothing is wasted, or taken out of the system. Second, is the not-for-profit. Basically, this is like a non-profit, but sometimes there is a small amount of resources in excess of the "necessities". These resources are not distributed amongst the administration, staff, or anyone else. They are saved and use when the business has a "shortfall". Third, is the for-profit business. In this instance, any extra money is divided up amongst the administration, staff, and anyone else who is a "shareholder" in the business.

I have been talking about the first two. When it comes to this community, I believe that the intentions are that all proceeds be used for maintenance and expenses of the site.

I am not a member of any sites (to my knowledge) that operate as for-profit entities. I, like most, in the community oppose such actions. I am also very impressed with anyone who is so devoted to the community that they would go through all of the time, effort, and risk involved to create and maintain such a site. Thanks to those who do!

Well, it may come as a surprise,:rolleyes: but I do this for the lulz, really. The effort is worth it to me as I learn alot about the world outside my myopic personal environment, and it's been a great time watching my site work itself out as a fun, low pressure tracker, that tries to take some of the seriousness out of the daily BT grind that makes torrenting a job at some sites. I've never had a single inclination to make money off it, and doubt I would keep it if we made a profit anyways.

Anyone who's spent a decent amount of time at PtN's irc knows I have a decidedly negavtive view of money and my appreciation for the guys that do the grunt labor there would override any desire for personal gain in favor of giving them a chunk before I ever came close to it, but we don't worry so much about it.

I do think that alot of the folks that start up new trackers grossly underestimate the amount of time and effort, not to mention passionate members, it takes to keep a tracker going the way it should, or at least as close to the way it should as possible. I think they also underestimate the degree of cooperation it takes to have a working staff team as well, and all volunteers as was pointed out earlier.

Regarding the peripheral subject of encouraging members to donate to fix their ratio, we are never gonna have that option as staffers at PtN sadly enough :P