Does going No-Ratio really help peer activity?

I was just wondering, does going no ratio really work, not just in theory? Almost every site that I've seen that went no ratio seems to have been LOSING peers. Just look at SceneRace or the site Scene"live" (not the original ScL). They have both reverted back to ratio systems after "excessive hit'n'runs". Wait a second - weren't minimum seed times introduced to DECREASE hit'n'runs? :blink: On GFT, another popular tracker, although I have to agree that they have some great pretimes, and that the speeds on their 0day torrents definitely can max out connections with the numerous seedboxes on the site, even the staff have admitted that the tracker is more 0day oriented - and isn't as effective in archives or older content. PTM seems to have done something right - they have a decent amount of peers - but is it really a lot compared to how many total users they have? And even if it is - it isn't technically "no ratio" as you can seed to .6/.75 (forgot which one) and then just leave the torrent. This doesn't really "keep" in the spirit of using a no ratio system as an means of preventing hit'n'runs, as you can just leave the torrent soon after. I can't really comment on FTN, the original pioneer of the "ratio free system", as I don't have any experience with it, but from the screens I've seen there seemed to be many 1 seeder 0 leecher torrents as well. There's also the "curse" of no-ratio music sites as well. Almost every single no ratio music site (with the exception of SQN and CE, which are very new and could very well fail later) has managed to collapse. What.cd and waffles, two of the most successful music trackers, have flourished with activity even though it is one of the hardest sites to seed at.

Then there's the problem of limiting upload as well. Anyone can survive on these sites with little to no upload at all, as long as they seed. What's to stop someone from limiting all their torrents to 1kbps upload while they use their upload bandwidth at the ratio sites they have? How do you prevent this from putting a screeching halt on activity as torrents end up becoming slower and slower?

One possible explanation is lack of users. Most no ratio sites these days seem to lack the users necessary to really generate activity. Although some of the bigger name sites, such as GFT or FTN, seem to be lacking activity on older or unknown torrents as well, but in all respects still have small userbases as well.

Could a no ratio site with a larger userbase truly work, and hold its own against some of the more known ratio sites?

It really depends on the users and staff. Most new ratio-free trackers seem to close down or have minimal activity.

Already established no ratio trackers are doing fine I believe, you shouldn't have a problem finding seeds or maxing out your line with mainstream releases. Yes there may be those 1-2 seeds off the beaten path torrents...but compared to say ScT's 5-7, there's hardly a difference.

Although one thing that I have noticed that's different between "1 seeder" torrents on no ratio sites and "5-7" seeder torrents on say ScT or any other 0 day site, is that on no ratio sites the seedboxes seem to drop off in a matter of days. No one wants to waste precious seedbox bandwidth on sites that don't have ratio, while on ScT more seedbox users would be likely to stay on the torrent. So after a couple of days, no ratio torrents turn into beaten path torrents with 1-2 home seeders, while ScT's torrents turn into beaten path torrents with 5-7 seedboxes.

FTN almost doubled the number of peers when it went ratio-free. Today the peer count is even higher.

I can't comment on the other non ratio sites you mentioned in your OP because I'm not a member.

Wow! That's interesting to hear :blink:

I guess another point maybe I should make is how is retention? Not just peer activity on recent torrents. Can FTN claim to manage a steady stream of seeders (instead of one seeder ghost towns) on older torrents?

I have heard that recently they switched to no required seedtime at all. Has that hurt/benefited peer activity at all?

Off topic: Why is it "benefited" and not "benefitted"?

ratio free sites generally succeed or phail depending on the community/userbase they have, and the kind of content they strive to have.

FTN has popular torrents seeded rather well, but unpopular torrents do lack peers or, are dead. Its a fact most ratio free sites have to live with.Loyal members who value their membership, and really want to do something for the community, seed for longer durations.
Members who are genuinely interested in content download what they 'actually need' and find interesting. ofc..the stuff someone grabs out of his own interest is gonna stay seeded for a longer duration.

Ratio free trackers eliminate the need to buffer accounts up (for the purpose of sustenance) by grabbing unwanted stuff which gets removed off Seedbox HDDs in a matter of hours.
Loyalty of members towards a tracker is one of the most important points to be considered while discussing ratio free trackers. It made a lot of difference between survival and phailure of ITN. (The dead polish 0day ratio free tracker)

One of the reasons FTN has scrapped minimum seed time rule is that the staffers felt they could trust their members enough to avoid HnRs. It certainly went a long way in increasing the number of peers. (quite logical, isn't it?)
i would prefer to grab stuff off some site which offers good speeds, is ratiofree with no seed time restrictions to a site which has strict 3 day seeding period and ratio system (or no ratio system for that matter) in effect.


Moving on..No ratio music sites may serve as secondary options for mainstream music enthusiasts. People would actually prefer to grab Britney (lol), LP, Metallica and other mainstream stuff off these sites rather than 'waste' buffer on what and waffles, as they are ridiculously difficult to seed on.

Another very old and established tracker comes to my mind that went all freeleech about a year ago and they're doing better than ever.

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Originally Posted by Polarbear

Another very old and established tracker comes to my mind that went all freeleech about a year ago and they're doing better than ever.

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+1 :happy:

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Originally Posted by n00bz0r

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Originally Posted by polarbear

another very old and established tracker comes to my mind that went all freeleech about a year ago and they're doing better than ever.

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+1 :happy:

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+2

Well seed-points and bonus-system is a good motivation to seed everything what you download forever. There are few examples of movie-trackers which prove it. 0day is 0day it's actauly in a moment. Browse.php saw something intresting - > download it. In fact most of people think only about huge ratio, awesome upload and great bufer on 0day trackers. So they don't care about content. There are few words like 'pre-times', 'good speeds' are typical shit.
Great community + good bonus system is a way to not have 0seeds on any torrent IMHO.

You beat me to this thread :P.

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I like the way that you put it(pay it forward i.e)it gives more responsibility to us members without neccesarily the need to be baby sat on by ratio rules and of course the admins.This system while with its own cons I feel its much less of a gamble than the prevalent no ratio system(responsible for the death of nearly all the startups that chose to go the 'cool' way).Infact this traditional ratioless system is just bad and utterly unsustainable.I guarantee you if you got rid of the l33+ factor from those sites that still stand they'd probably be facing the same fate as their cousins..I'd go on forever but thats just another plus for TvT(i'll probably put up a thread about this soon).

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and so imo if a tracker wants to go ratioless it should make sure it has the proper license to do so first i.e be l33+ otherwise its bound to fail or struggle all through.Otherwise its high time sites try out the TvT system which imo is far more superior than any other system that be.word yo!

exclude 2 or maybe 3 no-ratio tracker, the rest are pure shit.

It seems there are 2 kinds of users who look for ratio-free sites.

1) Adults who appreciate being trusted and treated like adults. These members like to give back (and probably then some)and like being part of a thriving, prospering community.

2) Immature kids. They act like kids, need to be treated like kids, and don't have a clue what community means. When the site goes to shit, they say, "lame" and keep moving on...

I don't think that there is an inherent failing in the ratio-less site philosophy. The problem(s) occur when too many "kids" are allowed to play in the "adult" world.

Damn. I sound like a grouchy old bastard this morning. :lol:
Now, stay off my lawn!!!

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Originally Posted by megabyteme

It seems there are 2 kinds of users who look for ratio-free sites.

1) Adults who appreciate being trusted and treated like adults. These members like to give back (and probably then some)and like being part of a thriving, prospering community.

2) Immature kids. They act like kids, need to be treated like kids, and don't have a clue what community means. When the site goes to shit, they say, "lame" and keep moving on...

I don't think that there is an inherent failing in the ratio-less site philosophy. The problem(s) occur when too many "kids" are allowed to play in the "adult" world.

Damn. I sound like a grouchy old bastard this morning. :lol:
Now, stay off my lawn!!!

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Can I have me ball back please sir??

Like mentioned and I have to agree it all depends on the user/member base and there attitudes.
I think an established tracker that has had no new members in a while and provides and does well does not really need a ratio system or seed time.
Another thing that does make a difference to how long people seed for on a seed box is if that seed box is used mainly for uploading to other sites as they will want a good turn around of torrents for that site.
I have done this several yrs in the past but on stuff I got for myself as well once seed box had finished and it was on me home pc would then seed from there for a long time on top of origional seed amount.

*Gives ball back to Duckater* :)

I think FTN owes much of its success to being a pioneer of the no-ratio system. It isn't a huge site with a tremendous archive of well-seeded torrents, but that's not really the point of torrents in my opinion (and that of some uploaders I've chatted with).

But I've noticed in the last year, since they've opened up a lot more invites, that the explosion of seedboxes has affected FTN as well. I've noticed that most of the new users have quickly surpassed my fairly high upload amount. These people are pushing out TBs within a few weeks/months. How? By downloading everything popular in every format available and every pack and then even cross-seeding on other sites. Why would anyone cross-seed a new torrent on FTN? There is no ratio and the guise of "I'll help seed" is bogus. It's all about the epenis.

So I've noticed in this time that there are probably a lot of peers, especially in the first wave of snatches and first couple of days, that are not at FTN to benefit from the no-ratio system. In fact, the no-ratio system should be discouraging them from downloading at FTN. Yet, the peer numbers overall are inflated by the seedbox phenomenon.

I've only been a member of PTM for a few months and frankly don't use it all that often. Plus I cannot observe the peers list on site (and am not familiar with most of the older users like at FTN). However, I think their variation of the no-ratio system works great. Most of the users are on home connections. Some are on shared seedboxes or decent dedis. Overall this means speeds are a little slower, but with the larger userbase, the swarms are still really fast. I'm sure there are some cross-seeders and other forms of kids playing with their seedbox there as well, but from what I can see, there are still a lot of people benefiting from the no-ratio system.

All that being said, I think you're misinterpreting two key points.

1) No-ratio systems are not intended to prevent hit and runs.
No-ratio systems are intended solely to encourage leeching, especially for slower home connections and those who come a few hours after the swarm. The reason a number of torrents are 1/0 is almost always because it is something nobody really wants (some lame tv show) or it is really old and being kept alive by one of the handful of people who everything forever no matter what.
2) Most new trackers fail. I think there are more than enough trackers out there. There probably were more than enough a year or two ago, but they keep on coming out. Just going no-ratio will not save any site, no matter how awesome it is in theory. I think one of the biggest problems in this over-saturated marketplace is the fact that so many trackers make it difficult to even hear about them, let alone get in. Keeping things small and private is great, but not when the server costs are still high and the lack of torrent activity makes people who finally do get in go, "that's it?"

I truly believe in the no-ratio system. By having some stats and rules in place and providing good content, you'll encourage people to be responsible users. They might not seed forever, but if they seed for a few days or close to 1:1, I think that's pretty damn good. I don't know if it would work on a big site, but I doubt it will ever be implemented. Big sites are big because they are established and most of them are not going to radically change their ways.

Quoted for truth.. minus the actual quote. :P

For the ratio-free tracker,i think a primary consideration is Community and Friendship,then maybe the content or peers...you konw,Popular torrents will always seeded well in all over the trackers....As far as I know,Many secret ratio-free trackers works well throughout.....

It really depends on the site.

People have said it comes down to staff and the users. Imo it only comes down to the members. The staf consists of what 10, 20 people? that's too little to make a real difference in peer numbers. There are other ways in which the staff can influence users, but in the end it comes down to the question each member has to ask himself: ''Do you want to seed, just for seeding's sake?''

Come to think of it, I wonder what would happen if the usergroups were removed alltogether at say FTN. I bet the peers number would drop. I mean FTN is great, but some people are still there for the epen and if being a Hero increases it, then so be it.

Nothing wrong with the number of seeboxes though. I take advantage of it and then seed till I bleed. :D

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Originally Posted by The_Martinator

Come to think of it, I wonder what would happen if the usergroups were removed alltogether at say FTN. I bet the peers number would drop. I mean FTN is great, but some people are still there for the epen and if being a Hero increases it, then so be it.

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I think this idea is definitely worth implementing! Honestly, members' e-penis conists of several things: ratio, upload amount, usergroups.

What FTN member has? GB uploaded and usegroup. But if usegroups will be removed there won't any point in having huge upload amount since only staff can view this number AFAIK.

I personally love no ratio. I download far more then my upstream can handle. I rent a seedbox most of the time but not all the time. So I can download whatever I want with seedbox or my home connection. I think no ratio trackers need good pretimes to attract seedboxes for overall speed.

more poepl leech...

What can you say about PTN? Is it successful as a ratio-free tracker?

That's probably because the members are invested in the tracker.
Personally I'm less likely to abuse things I have some appreciation/respect for than things I don't.

In the context of the OP, PtN has to deal with the same problems every ratioless tracker has to deal with all of which have been stated already in this thread.

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Originally Posted by Megabyteme

It seems there are 2 kinds of users who look for ratio-free sites.

1) Adults who appreciate being trusted and treated like adults. These members like to give back (and probably then some)and like being part of a thriving, prospering community.

2) Immature kids. They act like kids, need to be treated like kids, and don't have a clue what community means. When the site goes to shit, they say, "lame" and keep moving on...

I don't think that there is an inherent failing in the ratio-less site philosophy. The problem(s) occur when too many "kids" are allowed to play in the "adult" world.

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I think this post says alot about what keeps any ratio free site going, and hell, it even follows for ratio enforcing sites in my opinion. Our goal when we thought up the whole total traffic system was to try to take a new tack on how to approach the leech factor.

The problem always boils down to the whole "give em an inch" aspect of human nature. When given latitude most people will take the easiest route, and it never ceases to amaze me that people seem to think that with all the leech friendly aspects of our site they can just ignore the basic ideas behind the BT protocol.

Here's the really funny thing, alot of the best users PtN gets are people that aren't "celebrities" in BT, just people that heard about us and wanted to check it out. Those are the folks that actually read the rules and FAQ, and learn what is expected of them at our site. That's not meant to be a knock on all the familiar names, just an observation of who actually values the site.

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Originally Posted by Intr4ns1t

In the context of the OP, PtN has to deal with the same problems every ratioless tracker has to deal with all of which have been stated already in this thread.

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Originally Posted by Megabyteme

It seems there are 2 kinds of users who look for ratio-free sites.

1) Adults who appreciate being trusted and treated like adults. These members like to give back (and probably then some)and like being part of a thriving, prospering community.

2) Immature kids. They act like kids, need to be treated like kids, and don't have a clue what community means. When the site goes to shit, they say, "lame" and keep moving on...

I don't think that there is an inherent failing in the ratio-less site philosophy. The problem(s) occur when too many "kids" are allowed to play in the "adult" world.

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I think this post says alot about what keeps any ratio free site going, and hell, it even follows for ratio enforcing sites in my opinion. Our goal when we thought up the whole total traffic system was to try to take a new tack on how to approach the leech factor.

The problem always boils down to the whole "give em an inch" aspect of human nature. When given latitude most people will take the easiest route, and it never ceases to amaze me that people seem to think that with all the leech friendly aspects of our site they can just ignore the basic ideas behind the BT protocol.

Here's the really funny thing, alot of the best users PtN gets are people that aren't "celebrities" in BT, just people that heard about us and wanted to check it out. Those are the folks that actually read the rules and FAQ, and learn what is expected of them at our site. That's not meant to be a knock on all the familiar names, just an observation of who actually values the site.

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Do you think that is due to the fact that a lot of tracker collectors ain't worried so much as long as they don't lose there account?
I agree that people new to the private BT scene can make the best users as these people can be shown how you/your tracker want them to respect your place and even if they do move on in the future the chances are if it is their first private tracker it will always be treated with respect. This is where I think where part of the problem is, and yes I am probably guilty of this to some extent, once on a few trackers and read there rules and most have the same rules we think we know them all and thus take it we are in the right when we do as we do just about ever where else.
Ok any one else have thoughts on that?

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Originally Posted by Intr4ns1t

In the context of the OP, PtN has to deal with the same problems every ratioless tracker has to deal with all of which have been stated already in this thread.

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Originally Posted by Megabyteme

It seems there are 2 kinds of users who look for ratio-free sites.

1) Adults who appreciate being trusted and treated like adults. These members like to give back (and probably then some)and like being part of a thriving, prospering community.

2) Immature kids. They act like kids, need to be treated like kids, and don't have a clue what community means. When the site goes to shit, they say, "lame" and keep moving on...

I don't think that there is an inherent failing in the ratio-less site philosophy. The problem(s) occur when too many "kids" are allowed to play in the "adult" world.

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I think this post says alot about what keeps any ratio free site going, and hell, it even follows for ratio enforcing sites in my opinion. Our goal when we thought up the whole total traffic system was to try to take a new tack on how to approach the leech factor.

The problem always boils down to the whole "give em an inch" aspect of human nature. When given latitude most people will take the easiest route, and it never ceases to amaze me that people seem to think that with all the leech friendly aspects of our site they can just ignore the basic ideas behind the BT protocol.

Here's the really funny thing, alot of the best users PtN gets are people that aren't "celebrities" in BT, just people that heard about us and wanted to check it out. Those are the folks that actually read the rules and FAQ, and learn what is expected of them at our site. That's not meant to be a knock on all the familiar names, just an observation of who actually values the site.

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^^ +1
which begs the question as to why these very same people that choose to abuse PTNs system will loyally keep unto others like say FTNs.
Just the other day it got so bad on one scene tracker that a warning had to be issued and by the language of it,it appeared as though it was inspired by these very same people that you are talking about.
Its indeed true that beginners(the filenetworks/sharky recruits) end up making the best members on trackers and this probably explains the reason why demonoid is still around to date.

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Originally Posted by Duckater

Do you think that is due to the fact that a lot of tracker collectors ain't worried so much as long as they don't lose there account?
I agree that people new to the private BT scene can make the best users as these people can be shown how you/your tracker want them to respect your place and even if they do move on in the future the chances are if it is their first private tracker it will always be treated with respect. This is where I think where part of the problem is, and yes I am probably guilty of this to some extent, once on a few trackers and read there rules and most have the same rules we think we know them all and thus take it we are in the right when we do as we do just about ever where else.
Ok any one else have thoughts on that?

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Regarding your first question, I think it boils down to learning the "ropes" and how to maintain an account you wouldn't otherwise need or want. All us experienced torrenters know the little tricks like cross/pre-seeding, borrowing a seedbox to buffer, logging in once a month or w/e. New folks don't know those tricks, so they do as directed of all things :O

Part of the problem at PtN, is the vast majority of people just do not understand how things work in our system. They are so used to HAVING to seed as much as they can as quickly as they can because that's the only way to gain status at your traditional ratio free site. I get PM's all the time telling me there is a bug in the system that is giving them too much upload, and they fail to realize that the upload and download all counts toward their promotions and what have you. That factor serves to bolster your point, duckater, that many people read a few sets of rules and presume they are fairly universal. That isn't always the case.

To be honest, the most valuable members to me are the guys with the TB's downloaded, as much, if not more so than the folks with TB's uploaded, as those are the folks that truly appreciate what we are offering. After all, without leechers, what's the point?

At the end of the day, the struggle becomes how to stand out from the rest of the multitude of private trackers that keep popping up. That's why the "community" tracker was born.

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Originally Posted by sez

^^ +1
which begs the question as to why these very same people that choose to abuse PTNs system will loyally keep unto others like say FTNs.

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If you figure that one out, let me know :P

[QUOTE=Intr4ns1t;3288213]

To be honest, the most valuable members to me are the guys with the TB's downloaded, as much, if not more so than the folks with TB's uploaded, as those are the folks that truly appreciate what we are offering. After all, without leechers, what's the point?[QUOTE=sez;3288211]



:wub:

If users hitting and running on sites that have minimum seed times, then they're just bad users, ratio or no ratio.
I don't expect the smaller no ratio sites to have more of an archive of torrents. With no ratio, there's no real incentive to seed for longer than the minimum time required (unless you want to be seen as a good user by the staff). And with a smaller user base, there's not going to be many peers.
I thought the point of no-ratio was to help make it easier for the user, not necessarily increase peer activity. High peer activity just depends on how much the users love/use the site.

cause ftn is soo l33t ?

IMHO people with extreme ratio's on sites are the ones that do damage to them and I have been preaching this for yrs.
OK you all want to know why I guess, think about it and see if you can figure it out? of course there is an exception to the rule of hi ratio's and that's uploaders :)
Sorry cannot give any prizes for right answer but will be good to see who can work it out.

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Originally Posted by Duckater

IMHO people with extreme ratio's on sites are the ones that do damage to them and I have been preaching this for yrs.
OK you all want to know why I guess, think about it and see if you can figure it out? of course there is an exception to the rule of hi ratio's and that's uploaders :)
Sorry cannot give any prizes for right answer but will be good to see who can work it out.

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Because it breaks the system. There will always be a global ratio on every tracker of 1:1(real traffic I mean) and every person that uploads five times the size of the file they snatched is making it impossible for four other people to get ANY upload on something they grab.

Yes Intr4ns1 and you was one I guessed would get it right but to be honest was hoping a few others would have tried 1st :lol:
I do discourage high ratio's and as rue try and keep mine on sites between 1.0 and 1.2 it is higher on sites where I have mostly uploaded and one other large tracker where I seeded old torrents that either had no seeders or just the odd one.
But I do tend to keep things for an eternity lol
Retention of torrents on a site is one way I judge a site these days as I think it shows how it is run and what the members are like weather ratio free or not. A site that is say over 2 yrs old with torrents that are over 100 weeks to me has done well and clearly got right people involved all the way thru it :)

I must admit it is good to find like minded people on ratio aspects but to be fair I don't think ratio free would work for us.

How is it possible to maintain a relatively low ratio and still seed for a long time?

I mean after a while you're the only one seeding and there is no point to limiting upload then.

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Originally Posted by Duckater

Yes Intr4ns1 and you was one I guessed would get it right but to be honest was hoping a few others would have tried 1st http://filesharingtalk.com/vb3/../.....lies/laugh.gif
I do discourage high ratio's and as rue try and keep mine on sites between 1.0 and 1.2 it is higher on sites where I have mostly uploaded and one other large tracker where I seeded old torrents that either had no seeders or just the odd one.
But I do tend to keep things for an eternity lol
Retention of torrents on a site is one way I judge a site these days as I think it shows how it is run and what the members are like weather ratio free or not. A site that is say over 2 yrs old with torrents that are over 100 weeks to me has done well and clearly got right people involved all the way thru it http://filesharingtalk.com/vb3/../.....lies/smile.gif

I must admit it is good to find like minded people on ratio aspects but to be fair I don't think ratio free would work for us.

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I really tried to wait to post, I swear ;)

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Originally Posted by idoleyes787

how is it possible to maintain a relatively low ratio and still seed for a long time?

I mean after a while you're the only one seeding and there is no point to limiting upload then.

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leeeech moooooar!!!! :P

I knew that but it was either post some shit here or do the dishes.:shifty:

I'm temporarily stuck with an extremely crappy connection that disconnects like crazy and is slow at the best of times. Because of this, I've limited myself to snatching torrents from those sites that offer a no or share-ratio system. The caps my ISP places on my b/w and speed makes it impossible to establish any kind of ratio no mater how hard I try, or how long I seed.

When I had a decent connection, I never thought twice before about whether a site had a ratio system in place because I would just seed back for as long as required, or upload requests - all those things members should just do

Now that I can't maintain a ratio, I've come to appreciate greatly those sites where they realize that being a good member is not just about ratio - but about keeping seeds active even if there isn't activity, or showing appreciation to the uploaders by snatching their torrents, packs, etc.

On this latter point, imho, supporting uploaders and seeding back for minimum times is really what should be encouraged. If the uploaders are going to put in the effort to make and seed packs, or quality rips, then efforts need to be made to encourage members to use what the site has to offer.

The obsession with bytes given in proportion to bytes taken has to be eased up. Not everyone has a seedbox or unlimited bandwith. Sites that make themselves available to all members with a range of connections and sharing abililties is what should be encouraed. If ratio-free is the means to encourage members to use the site, cool. But it can also come from not dropping the ban-hammer solely on ratio, or to give some consideration to the effort a member makes to at least give something back to the site by whatever means they can.

.... just my two cents :)

Do the dishes then :lol:
But on a serious note I have had arguements with some site owners in the past that could not see that over seeding uploads on there site was bad for them in this day and age with new sites opening up all the time.
One owner even said to me it encourages people to donate wtf if you provide them with what they want they more likely to donate :)

Kallieb we use a seed bonus system and have a seed time the bonus is reasonable fair and the staff know who are good users and if they have problems the staff send them points or help out on there ratio so they are fine. Site is 2 1/2 yrs old now and all staff have been on site for well over a yr and only odd staffer been staff for less than one yr.
At current time we are over staffed so feel that even if a few do decide to leave we have the staff who understand how we work and want the site run, we are quiet relaxed and friendly but will not be taken for fools.
I have been on sites and seen people banned warned for the slightest thing, even for stopping to seed while un raring a torrent.