BitTorrent - New trackers,- power abuse, profit-minded, no variation. Your thoughts?

Hiya, :w00t:

Please, if you are already here to flame me, or anyone else specific, I ask you not to do it here. I want a serious discussion and I want to know what other people do think. Thank you in advance. :stars:

Now to the thread subject. We have a (excuse my french) shitload of trackers these days and I can only see more and more trackers are launching while ocasionally some trackers left such as ScT and a few others. It would be one thing if the people started trackers with good (for other people) intentions and really believing and putting 100% heart and soul to it, but is that really how it is being done? :ermm:

While I sit and watch what is going on I see people starting up trackers, and it is really a lot of them, and almost each day, at least it feels that way to me. Of course they almost always go 0day, a trend I am not happy about. The owners are often doing the work to later use it in a mean way against the people that actually take part of their sites. Is that what torrenting has become - like a blog, everyone should have one of their own? It's become so much about the money, people want to profit as the main goal, from what is supposed to be no-loss, no-profit. P2P to me is not about profit - it is about sharing, and yes, sites do need donations, but there is a differense in what I am talking about here.

So yes, 99% of the new trackers are ran by narrow-minded, often power hungry and of course the profitable view they have in mind. If this is the way they run things, they could at least make a decent layout that does not look like putting Obama on a computer and tell him to do SQL. lol :lol:

There are enough trackers for everyone to go around and have at least on one 0day tracker. There is the possibility at least with many sites being sign-up sites such as TBY as an example that also is a great site for that matter imo. :)

And why can't you, the people that open up new trackers like this would be blogspot, aim on different things than zero-day. Be a little creative, go another direction - music, applications, hell, Family Guy Torrents? What ever - just make something DIFFERENT.:unsure:

If anyone does agree or disagree - please post. Any input is welcome. (I will not answer the carniphiliacilisters if there is no intention of a debate or a decent comment at the very least)

Peace! :)

I am not even against profit, or zero-day racers.I have an issue with racism istead.Why? Maybe cause I deal with it almost everyday somewhere somehow...

(Yes cinephilia & IdolEyes , I am into a drama...please keep yourselves silent about this :) )

There are a bunch of great trackers that don't go 0day.They have excellent content.Tehconnection, Hdchina , Cinematik are just a few examples.
As about profit...well I am not against it as long as bt users are not victims of lust and greed.I started a tracker several years ago, now it;s 15k+ members .I know how many hours i spent on making it work...Considering it as a job is as accepted as considering it a hobby in my opinion.

I think that the reason that the majority of newer trackers are 0day is simply because
A .They are a lot easier to set up ( scene axx or however it's done )and maintain and
B. That is what interests the people creating them.

Although I personally agree that something a little less redundant would be nice, I think you know that is a minority view.

I think there are a few problems:

1) Most new trackers are started by immature teenagers who think that having a tracker will increase their status in the BT community or get them invited to "high level sites"
2) These are the same kiddies that think paying for scene axx makes them 1337, so they often start 0-days
3) Many of these trackers try to promote secrecy and exclusivity right from the get go, i.e. they try to be rare and desired on purpose to generate buzz about their site
4) Because of this, most trackers have the exact same members during the beta/startup phase, and because these members often have so many trackers already activity stagnates

The 0-day market is flooded. If you're going to start a tracker, you should try and fill a niche that hasn't been filled.

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Originally Posted by ca_aok

I think there are a few problems:

1) Most new trackers are started by immature teenagers who think that having a tracker will increase their status in the BT community or get them invited to "high level sites"

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(This isn't a knock btw , at least not an intentional one)

When creating a model for a new business you look to ones that have found success in the past . Which ones do these types consider to be /have been at the the pinnacle of the bt world?
ScT,FTN ,SCC ? Doesn't it only make sense that anyone seeking immediate validation would unimaginatively try to emulate them without clue one what actually makes/made them successful?

ppl make sites cuz their bitches they need power on the internet lol cabalo said it its a bunch of 12 yr old kids who think they are sweet cuz they make terrible sites and tell every1 they are sysops lmfao

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Originally Posted by QPD

As about profit...well I am not against it as long as bt users are not victims of lust and greed.I started a tracker several years ago, now it;s 15k+ members .I know how many hours i spent on making it work...Considering it as a job is as accepted as considering it a hobby in my opinion.

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It is not supposed to be a job, and that is one of the reasons I am against making money of trackers - yes, we share files, but when it comes to actually making money of a movie or w/e is wrong... The same way I think selling piracy DVDs and the like is wrong. I don't think anyone is supposed to make money from an artist or an actor by running a tracker as a job...

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Originally Posted by IdolEyes787

When creating a model for a new business you look to ones that have found success in the past . Which ones do these types consider to be /have been at the the pinnacle of the bt world?
ScT,FTN ,SCC ? Doesn't it only make sense that anyone seeking immediate validation would unimaginatively try to emulate them without clue one what actually makes/made them successful?

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Oh I'm aware of why it happens, I just think it's kinda dumb.

This post by stoi from back in the day pretty much sums up my opinion of these people, even though it was meant to be a joke:

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Originally Posted by stoi

Never trade or do giveaways
Make a tracker and get the 1000 leetest BT users in it.
Get a rogue member to make a review on here.
Ban them (then make new account)
Get on the WTAW.
watch your tracker go up levels.
You will then get invited to the leetest places.

all that was tongue in cheek btw, but its possible but it will take you 1-2 years to do it.

But once you are in all those trackers, just shut yours down, blaming the lack of donations from all your leet members. then go and enjoy all the leet trackers you have got.

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Originally Posted by Qlix

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Originally Posted by QPD

As about profit...well I am not against it as long as bt users are not victims of lust and greed.I started a tracker several years ago, now it;s 15k+ members .I know how many hours i spent on making it work...Considering it as a job is as accepted as considering it a hobby in my opinion.

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It is not supposed to be a job, and that is one of the reasons I am against making money of trackers - yes, we share files, but when it comes to actually making money of a movie or w/e is wrong... The same way I think selling piracy DVDs and the like is wrong. I don't think anyone is supposed to make money from an artist or an actor by running a tracker as a job...

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You didn't get my point...I was talking about coders, who might spend 10 h/day 6 days/week doing smthng for their tracker (rss , radio, shoutbox/private box ,auto download , direct download , seedboxes and so on)That is a job and they should get payd for that.I was working with X** , an incredible gifted coder.

You speak the truth. If you think about it there is like 50 0-day trackers for every specialized one. Most 0-day trackers are just dupes of good and elite ones albeit with much, much less quality. I just wish that they would offer something unique but that's just me :happy:

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Originally Posted by ca_aok

3) Many of these trackers try to promote secrecy and exclusivity right from the get go, i.e. they try to be rare and desired on purpose to generate buzz about their site
4) Because of this, most trackers have the exact same members during the beta/startup phase, and because these members often have so many trackers already activity stagnates

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Very well said.

And this is why most new trackers(or at least the ones that caaok described) are not worth joining. They're just the same that most of us are already so used to. Same members, same files, same lame threads in the forums, etc. To me BT has become very boring.

I'm definitely not against anyone making a tracker. Who knows, maybe someone will come up with the next best thing. Or a niche that hasn't been filled yet. But these people that start up all these new, seemingly faceless 0day sites, really need to start putting some original ideas into their sites. As Idol pointed it's usually wise to emulate any business(or anything else) that has succeeded in the past, and is still succeeding. But I just don't think that's enough in the bt world. I think that original ideas is the better way to go, instead of just making another FTN or SCC.

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Originally Posted by Funkin'

As Idol pointed it's usually wise to emulate any business(or anything else) that has succeeded in the past, and is still succeeding. But I just don't think that's enough in the bt world. I think that original ideas is the better way to go, instead of just making another FTN or SCC.

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At the same time nothing great ever comes from simply emulation.
It's OK to start with a good idea but at some point you need to expand on it or you are merely further dividing an already saturated market with the resultant increasingly diminishing returns.

Oh course as has been pointed out the main goal of some of these trackers ( even one created by "established" people) is only to give themselves some status so I doubt is larger goals are a consideration.

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Originally Posted by Qlix

And why can't you, the people that open up new trackers, aim on different things than 0day. Be a little creative, go another direction like music, applications, hell, Family Guy torrents? Whatever, just make something different.

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If you want different, I almost created a tracker exclusively for stand-up comedy, but I couldn't find a coder who didn't charge outrageous prices for shoddy work.

Ok...
There isn't a definite answer to your question and I believe valid arguments can be made on both sides.Our version of morality aside,I've come to look at torrent sites as I do non-profit organizations.

The goal of a non-profit is to not make profit i.e break even after covering all costs.As you know,most of these organizations will have people actively volunteering but not everyone working for them is necessarily a volunteer(plumbers,electricians,guards)and you also have the white collars like the finance people that you'll actually have to put on a payroll.

I dunno if you get the gist of what am trying to get at but non-profits too have to make money to cover costs that actually include salaries for some employees.

I value honesty and transparency...like alot and I think its something that takes courage.If you got salaried individuals on your staff then don't tell me you want donations solely coz of server costs.That's you being dishonest and basically insulting the intelligence of people who diligently use your site.Why don't you just come clean with the kind of work or hours these salaried individuals put on the site (you don't even have to give their names) and see how that goes.

BT is evolving whether we like it or not,the old guard doesn't like it,they refuse to be phased out by the young gunz and that's why you see all this drama they are brewing from these retirement homes.lol this last paragraph feels a little offtopic but you get my point :P.

i wouldn't mind a tracker that would complement all these 0-day ones. A general tracker, that is non-scene only, small tight-nit community for security, no ratio, no seed time. obviously it'll never happen, but it would be aewsome.

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BT is evolving whether we like it or not,the old guard doesn't like it,they refuse to be phased out by the young gunz and that's why you see all this drama they are brewing from these retirement homes.lol this last paragraph feels a little offtopic but you get my point

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sorry but i dont get it at all.

BT evolving? how?
old getting phased out by new? where?

as far as i can see, BT is the same as it was 6 years ago, only difference is more press and more seedboxes, and most of these new trackers, like has been said, wont last 4 months, and 99% of them will stick to global ratios, so again how are they and BT in general evolving, and why should the old guard (and by that i believe you are including me) be pissed off with new trackers, for me bring them on, plenty of downloaders and seeders out there that have no private tracker, so why not, just because most on here have 30 private trackers to choose from, there are a hell of a lot more that have 0.

Honestly, I don`t see new trackers as competition, I dont see any tracker as competition, we are all in this to share, so the more trackers sharing, the better it is for everyone imho. And if a tracker does come up with a new idea (to evolve BT), great.

Half of the new generation can't even code a tracker themselves. I've seen many idiots asking the stupidest of questions over at TBDEV.net. Real coders know how to do it.

Just ask trackers with nice designs (iTS, ScL, etc).

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Originally Posted by Ewwwyourface

ppl make sites cuz their bitches they need power on the internet lol cabalo said it its a bunch of 12 yr old kids who think they are sweet cuz they make terrible sites and tell every1 they are sysops lmfao

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My opinion is that 12 year old kid wont be capable to start good tracker.
For that you need to be good coder.

not sure what CSS/HTML has to do with PHP/MYSQL, Ok its all coding, but designing a theme for TBDEV is pretty easy, writing a mod from scratch that will change the way the tracker works, is the hard part.

The only reason i have not had a go at a theme for BCG is because I am colour blind, so it would look great to me, but shit to everyone else lol

EDIT: all i am trying to say is, just because a site looks nice, does not mean its secure, bug free etc (not including the 2 sites mentioned)

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Originally Posted by FreeCandy

For that you need to be good coder.

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Did you just read what I said?

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Originally Posted by stoi

The only reason i have not had a go at a theme for BCG is because I am colour blind, so it would look great to me, but shit to everyone else lol

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Best quote ever. :lol:

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Please, if you are already here to flame me, or anyone else specific, I ask you not to do it here. I want a serious discussion and I want to know what other people do think. Thank you in advance.

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It saddens me that someone could be so afraid of starting a thread here. Most of the (potential) flames and trolls you speak of probably come out when any of the utter crap that comes here on a daily basis through alternate, 1 post wonders is posted. I have posted quite a few serious threads here that have received great feedback from the members here, I would hope that others would have a similar experience. You can always report them if they severely derail from the thread.

As to the rest of the topic...

Sez brings up a good point:

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Our version of morality aside,I've come to look at torrent sites as I do non-profit organizations.

The goal of a non-profit is to not make profit i.e break even after covering all costs.As you know,most of these organizations will have people actively volunteering but not everyone working for them is necessarily a volunteer(plumbers,electricians,guards)and you also have the white collars like the finance people that you'll actually have to put on a payroll.

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I would separate the idea of "profiting" into four categories:

1. The best, using donation money purely to fund servers.

2. Using the money to cover server costs and the fund yourself the potential money you "lose" from countless hours of coding and administration.

3. Creating a torrent site purely as a business venture to generate a source of income from donations.

4. Selling pirated DVD's on the street (And deceiving people into believing that the DVD is genuine).

How exactly do we differentiate between one and the other? Specifically, how would be able to tell the difference between 1, 2, and 3? When do we know when others are really profiting, or what there goals were when they started the tracker? Is the concept of 2 somehow "better" than 3? Would simply giving yourself a little compensation for all the hours you put in a tracker be ethically "better" than creating a torrent site with the sole purpose of profiting from it? And is creating a business out of a torrent site any better than simply selling DVD's on the street? Which of these are more "ethically" correct?

The one thing I can concretely say from this is that torrent sites take a lot of work. The hours of coding, finding trustworthy administration, server costs, questionable legality, all make this an extremely risky endeavor. Is it too naive to assume that staff wouldn't take a little money for themselves? When people claim of profiteering, do they mean it is unacceptable to even take the smallest amount for yourself, or is just unacceptable for the sole purpose of the site to be something to profit off of?

As to the lack of innovation on new torrent sites - at first I had believed similarly to you, that the reason new and upstart trackers are failing is due to having far too many 0day trackers. But the more I think of it, the more I realize that Private BT as a whole is becoming far too saturated. Even what we used to have considered as niche sites - games, movies, tv shows, music, even elearning (something I never imagined would have been as popular as it seems to be) are becoming extremely saturated. There are literally dozens of those sites popping up every month or so, popping off as they die from lack of activity. Not only is there no room for 0day sites, but these niches seem to saturated as well.

So what's the solution - fulfill other, more obscure niches. But the more obscure you get, the less people you will find that are interested in that niche. And the smaller the userbase, the more stagnant the activity. A niche tracker also depends the most heavily on user uploads as well - exacerbating the problem even further when your userbase is small. Perhaps thats why so many 0day trackers pop up - because its a broad category everyone can be interested in, so you'll always find a potential userbase (but of course now that there are so many, that point is pretty much moot). Unless a tracker comes up with something extraordinarily revolutionary and has a massive userbase to back it up, I don't see successful torrent sites popping up in the next few months.