Is invite trading really that bad?

Quoted from backie's blog (but not written by backie afaik)
Felt this needed to by copy pasta'd onto FST, because there wasn't enough intelligent discussion going on at the source.

"
Lets say you have five monkeys in a cage. You put a banana in the cage, and everytime a monkey tries to get it you spray them all with a hose. Eventually these 5 monkeys understand what’s up and don’t try to get the banana. Now lets say you replace one of the five monkeys with a new monkey. The new monkey goes to get the banana and the other four monkeys attack it. The monkey tries again with the same result, and eventually the new monkey gives up. Now lets say you replace a second monkey. The new monkey tries to get the banana, and all the other monkeys attack it, including the monkey that was aded previously. Lets say that you do this 3 more times, so none of the original monkeys are there. All these monkeys don’t go for the banana because they were attacked when they tried. But do they know why they were attacked? No. They have never seen the hose that the original monkeys were sprayed with, and yet they will attack any monkey that tries to get the banana. This is the
situation with trading tracker invites today. Most people have long forgotten the original reason trading was forbidden, which was in fact to protect the tracker from security threats. But trading is one of the more secure ways to let someone into a tracker, because both the invites being given need to be on the same “level”. With giving away invites, this is not the case. All you need to do to get into a higher level tracker is give away five or 6 invites to FTS or some other shitty tracker and BOOM; you have access to SCC, GFT and more. Giving away invites is based on the exact same principal as trading, except that is much easier to move up to more elite trackers. When you trade invites, there is also a certain level of trust involved. You don’t go around trading invites with a complete stranger for fear of being jipped. You usually know the person you are trading invites with, whether it be in real life or on a forum. With giving away invites, you give the invite to
whoever has the most “reps”. But the thing is these reps could have been given because the person gave away a bitshock invite. You just don’t know. I think the bittorrent world needs to ask itself, “Is trading really that bad?”.

"

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Starting of TSOL's opinion:

I can sort of relate with some of the concepts in this person's thoughts, but I do believe he is glorifying and oversimplifying trading. I've traded/scammed just for kicks wayyy back before really knowing anything about this scene (Mudd revoked my invite privs at A-L once upon a time, but let me stay on board, good man :P) and from what I understand there isn't really much trust among traders. Some are decent folk with lives, some have interesting persona's, some want buffered accounts because their pipes are shite, but for the most part they are just moronic people caught up in chasing illusions. In other words, they are the same kind of people who today are 'anti-trade' invite givers.

I have about as much faith in those past traders as I do in today's non-traders; the traders who were interesting and personable to today's non-trader equivalents; sketchy traders to today's anonymous anti-traders, or users who throw invites around like spare change. As far as tracker security, I wouldn't let my web of trust stretch further than people I know first-hand. I would not put complete trust in invitees, and therefore no tracker is truly secure in my eyes. Chances are your site will go down when some shitty ex-staff member decides to stab you in the back for personal differences, or when your database will fuck itself over the one time you were too lazy to make backups. Aka your site will die well before the feds decide to come in and seize your servers.

Despite all this, I feel trading has fallen apart so much since back in '07 when it was a norm, at least from what I have been witnessing here on FST, that it is not realistic to ever expect any sort of resurgence in trading. This is mostly because you'd have to be a complete idiot to even contemplate trading unless you are oblivious to the current state of bt politics. In my opinion invite giveaways aren't much of an improvement from past trading norms, but they are not a step backwards either as the original quote seems to allude. Trader's have successfully become a scapegoat for private tracker woes, for better or for worse.



afterthought: Would be nice to get a couple tracker staffer opinions in here, especially those that have been around for some good amount of time. I lack that sort of perspective, and my vantage point is probably missing elements theirs would have had.

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Originally Posted by 1000possibleclaws

This is mostly because you'd have to be a complete idiot to even contemplate trading unless you are oblivious to the current state of bt politics.

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False. I believe every single person that says they traded with the impression that it was the right thing to do (oblivious to the truth, as you would say). The problem is the BT world is huge, and someone fresh off the bench from public trackers googling "FTN invite" will probably end up on a trading board and see hundreds of people carrying out the deed in broad daylight (in retrospect). It would be naive to assume that everyone who trades knows it's wrong, just as it would be naive to assume that people trade for as few reasons as people list often. I'm sure exclusivity and sharing aren't the only reasons; but more sinister ones like it becoming a hobby, or their will to aggravate some staffer somewhere also play a part.

Trading is bad because most of the time it's done for the wrong reasons, and will probably end with the wrong people (people banned twice or thrice before) getting back on the tracker and ruining the experience for a different torrenter, yet again. Fact is, according to all the reading I've done, and all I've had to hear from different people, that seems to be the most dominant logical reasoning; people consider trading acceptable but the people associated with it usually have their hands in even more dirt, which can never be a good thing (invite selling/cheating etc.). That's what I reason with, instead of deluded illusions of helping an undercover FBI agent get on my favorite tracker on the other side of the internet pipes.

That's just my opinion, though, and I don't have the "experience" you might be looking for.

The author of that grossly oversimplifies things and it's clear that he's trying to bolster his own view by making silly statements. LOL@ traders being "trusted", I can't imagine a system where there's less trust in place. As a general rule you won't know each other, you should both be paranoid that the other guy is actually a staffer baiting you, etc.

The problem isn't so much the whole RIAA/MPAA thing, that's just what people spew out when they have no clue what the real issues are. The problem is that most traders are generally, for lack of a better word, scum. I see trading as the "gateway drug" of the torrenting world. It starts with a simple one time deal for a site you want. Maybe you treasure that account and use it well. Whatever, it was a means to an end. However, it often doesn't stop there. You start realizing that you can't be assed to do things the normal way, I mean, why bother asking for invites when you can just trade yours away. So you start trading more and more. Eventually you've made so many trades and lost so many of your accounts that it's no longer about just getting into that one unobtainable site, it's about spitting in the face of tracker staff, trading for a "buffered account" and then hit and running a place bone dry, etc. Soon enough, if you're cutting corners here, why not throw the rest of the rules out the window? Might as well start selling invites since the torrent sites themselves aren't doing much for you. This is especially great when they donate for invites, sell them, then claim the cash back from paypal and get your account frozen. Hell, might as well start cheating too, you probably have multiple accounts and you need a way to buffer them fast so they're worth more. Eventually it all becomes a game, and you probably don't even torrent much anymore.

Soon you degrade from a simple one-time trader into a scumbag that's a collector, trader, seller, cheater, all rolled into one. And you've forgotten why you even started trading in the first place.

And say what you will, the WTAW/WTO is a huge part of the problem. The reason many people trade is because of the "rarity levels", since they're under some delusion that the high level trackers are the best (and for trade value, they are). Without that stupid shit, it wouldn't be that big of an issue. If there was some other 0-day site like FTN with a comparable number of members, but wasn't on that list, it really wouldn't have many problems from traders.

Public giveaways are just as bad, especially when it's for rep points to bolster your trading power here or try and get an invite to a "high level site" here.

Rules are in place at private trackers for the betterment of the site, swarms, and the community. If you don't want to follow them, just fuck off to public trackers or newsgroups or something, where it's irrelevant and you can leech to your heart's content. Traders love to talk about how difficult invites are to acquire, and yet the entire reason it's difficult for them to get invites is because no one knows who they are. As a trader, you spend your time living in the shadows. You hide behind proxies, have to use different browsers for different sites, have a million emails to keep track of, you have to avoid the forums/IRC because anything that might draw staff eyes to your profile is a danger, and you constantly change your nick. The end result of this is no one has any basis on which to get to know you or trust you. Additionally, they come here and get "Trader Rep" and then expect people to bend over backwards in a giveaway for them, so that they can then trade that account down the road when something "rarer" comes along? Well fuck them.

If I might echo the response of one of the last commentators, join What, through the interview if necessary, hit power user, you now have invites to all the sites you reasonably need. You don't need to worry about all this bullshit, and you'll be happier for it. Unless you're looking for unlimited invites to those "high level trackers", you'll be able to find whatever you need.

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False. I believe every single person that says they traded with the impression that it was the right thing to do (oblivious to the truth, as you would say). The problem is the BT world is huge, and someone fresh off the bench from public trackers googling "FTN invite" will probably end up on a trading board and see hundreds of people carrying out the deed in broad daylight (in retrospect). It would be naive to assume that everyone who trades knows it's wrong, just as it would be naive to assume that people trade for as few reasons as people list often. I'm sure exclusivity and sharing aren't the only reasons; but more sinister ones like it becoming a hobby, or their will to aggravate some staffer somewhere also play a part.

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Read the Rules on any site (you did agree to do so before joining didn't you?), and you'll see the problem. It's clearly wrong. You might start out oblivious, but when the first ban rolls around, you'd figure it out pretty quick.

Trading brings more negativity to the system than the small positive sides it has.Even if positive sides are embraced,it opens a series of loopholes for exploitation.The system is better without it.

The relationship between rule abiding members of trackers and conformist monkeys is truly insulting...
And the quoted post was obviously written by a deranged invite trader, that most likely just got banned off a high level tracker he traded for.

There were already many valid points given here, so I'm not going to rehash them all back for you again.
But I think you would have to agree... That to maintain a level of quality on trackers that their must be rules put in place.
These rules aren't made to bash you down and take power over anyone (shame on any site that does), they are made to craft a clean and efficient community...

If I truly felt suppressed by any of these rules or ideals of these trackers, I would be the first to speak out about them.. As I have in the past on multiple occasions.

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Originally Posted by ca_aok

Read the Rules on any site (you did agree to do so before joining didn't you?), and you'll see the problem. It's clearly wrong. You might start out oblivious, but when the first ban rolls around, you'd figure it out pretty quick.

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One of the most common rules:

"You must have legal rights to the file you are downloading."


Other than that bs rules part at the end your post makes a good deal of sense. While trackers network to some extent, I'd still think users would behave better if all their accounts had the same nick attached to them. Trading accounts just makes them more disposable which can't be great. Oink was the best tracker of its time, despite allowing trading. TTi has always been on par with any other 0day site that has not allowed trading. Would these sites have been even better had they disallowed trading? There is for sure a negative impact of trading, but judging from Oink I am somewhat doubtful about how many people actually degrade into collectors and scumbags, or whether that number is even relevant. If trading has infact died off everywhere and not just here, I wonder what positive effects it would have had over the past few years. I guess its doubtful anywhere could pinpoint anything with all the other factors involved.

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Originally Posted by 1000possibleclaws

One of the most common rules:

"You must have legal rights to the file you are downloading."

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This is a common argument from rulebreakers, and a silly one at that. It's more of a disclaimer than a rule, and everyone is aware that it's only put there for the fimsy pretense in case of legal action against the site. It's sort of like drug users to experiment with Research Chemicals (aka Designer Drugs). These are legal drugs made by slightly altering current illegal drugs in order to bend the rules. You can buy them from large online vendors and in the case of incense (the JWH family usually) you can even buy them in smoke shops. However, they all have the disclaimer "Not sold for human consumption", because as soon as something is sold for human consumption the rules become insanely strict.

No one is buying these chemicals to "study their effects", they're buying them because they're legal chemicals that get you high, despite being "Not for human consumption". It's just a flimsy pretense to protect the vendors.

Regarding OiNK, etc. The BT landscape was different then compared to what it is now. It's not really fair to say their success was helped or hindered by trading, especially since they're no longer around. What.cd has far surpassed OiNK in everything but the size of its memberbase, and it takes a hard line against the undesirables.

I think the reason that people new to the torrent game think trading is the norm and is ok can pretty much can be attributed to what you have been told your whole life, there is no such thing as a free lunch...but I guess in the case of torrents the best things in life are free...until they hound you to donate and threaten to shut the place down :-P

Trading will never die down completley.... Just type in your favorite tracker.... and then type "invite" afterward.

What do you get?

1-2 people trying to get an invite legitimately (with a bad request usually), and then 6 results of people trading invites. And succeeding.
The 2 legit requests are usually on yahoo answers, which you find is worthless, and the 6 are on trading/selling websites....
This is how I originally got myself tied up with Torrent invites, as it was the first dedicated torrent forum I found.

The problem is private trackers that only allow people to join via invites leave people searching for a way to get in.
Their is no guidance on how to get an invite when you type in your dream tracker, only a username and password box....

Again this drama.

End with this invite bullshit! Or close the trackers!
This way there won't be any more traders.

I don't have any problem with trading. It's just a matter of opinion. The reason I don't trade is because I want to follow the rules of the trackers that I like. I don't think transgressing upon those rules would make me a bad person; I just know that it would get me disabled for breach of the rules that I accept when I join such a tracker. Trading is a bit dishonest, though. If you join a tracker, you basically accept the rules of said tracker. If you do not wish to accept them, you leave the tracker. If you do accept them, and then you trade, I think that would speak to your character. That has nothing to do with the concept of trading; rather, with the rules of a website in general.

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Originally Posted by ca_aok

The author of that grossly oversimplifies things and it's clear that he's trying to bolster his own view by making silly statements. LOL@ traders being "trusted", I can't imagine a system where there's less trust in place. As a general rule you won't know each other, you should both be paranoid that the other guy is actually a staffer baiting you, etc.

The problem isn't so much the whole RIAA/MPAA thing, that's just what people spew out when they have no clue what the real issues are. The problem is that most traders are generally, for lack of a better word, scum. I see trading as the "gateway drug" of the torrenting world. It starts with a simple one time deal for a site you want. Maybe you treasure that account and use it well. Whatever, it was a means to an end. However, it often doesn't stop there. You start realizing that you can't be assed to do things the normal way, I mean, why bother asking for invites when you can just trade yours away. So you start trading more and more. Eventually you've made so many trades and lost so many of your accounts that it's no longer about just getting into that one unobtainable site, it's about spitting in the face of tracker staff, trading for a "buffered account" and then hit and running a place bone dry, etc. Soon enough, if you're cutting corners here, why not throw the rest of the rules out the window? Might as well start selling invites since the torrent sites themselves aren't doing much for you. This is especially great when they donate for invites, sell them, then claim the cash back from paypal and get your account frozen. Hell, might as well start cheating too, you probably have multiple accounts and you need a way to buffer them fast so they're worth more. Eventually it all becomes a game, and you probably don't even torrent much anymore.
http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/820...2322h35m17.png

Soon you degrade from a simple one-time trader into a scumbag that's a collector, trader, seller, cheater, all rolled into one. And you've forgotten why you even started trading in the first place.

And say what you will, the WTAW/WTO is a huge part of the problem. The reason many people trade is because of the "rarity levels", since they're under some delusion that the high level trackers are the best (and for trade value, they are). Without that stupid shit, it wouldn't be that big of an issue. If there was some other 0-day site like FTN with a comparable number of members, but wasn't on that list, it really wouldn't have many problems from traders.

Public giveaways are just as bad, especially when it's for rep points to bolster your trading power here or try and get an invite to a "high level site" here.

Rules are in place at private trackers for the betterment of the site, swarms, and the community. If you don't want to follow them, just fuck off to public trackers or newsgroups or something, where it's irrelevant and you can leech to your heart's content. Traders love to talk about how difficult invites are to acquire, and yet the entire reason it's difficult for them to get invites is because no one knows who they are. As a trader, you spend your time living in the shadows. You hide behind proxies, have to use different browsers for different sites, have a million emails to keep track of, you have to avoid the forums/IRC because anything that might draw staff eyes to your profile is a danger, and you constantly change your nick. The end result of this is no one has any basis on which to get to know you or trust you. Additionally, they come here and get "Trader Rep" and then expect people to bend over backwards in a giveaway for them, so that they can then trade that account down the road when something "rarer" comes along? Well fuck them.

If I might echo the response of one of the last commentators, join What, through the interview if necessary, hit power user, you now have invites to all the sites you reasonably need. You don't need to worry about all this bullshit, and you'll be happier for it. Unless you're looking for unlimited invites to those "high level trackers", you'll be able to find whatever you need.

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Now here's somebody who takes his torrenting a little bit too seriously,you provide so much to shit on that I don't even know where to start.When preparing a list of scum in BT though,it's strongly advised you start with p2pg and some of the people who run these closed BT/possibly kiddie porn swapping forums.
I think you need to rethink how you approach BT,try looking at it the way you do the spam folder in your email account.

100% of torrent sites that have closed thus far aren't there because of idiot staffers not traders.Perhaps you should clarify that 'traders are banned not because they trade but because they are scum' part otherwise you need to produce this scummeter that you are using so we all can see it.

@sez so just because you cant see whats in there, they possibly do kiddie porn? all i can say is of course they bloody dont.

The trading argument will go on forever, and there will be no winner, but you mentioned Oink allowed it, and they got on fine, hmm he got arrested and the site took down, now we will never know if the reason he got taken down was because of a trader or not, but it didnt exactly do the site any favours.

The way i see it, the whole BT hierarchy is fucked up.

Get a seedbox/Cheat = get a higher class, get invites/into the invite forums of the tracker, trade invites on places like FST, who most of the time you have no idea who they are, even if they have 100rep 500 posts and show you speedtests, links to tracker profiles (they could have cheated their ratio as well).

Also giving them only to people you know is bollocks as well, most peoples friends, wont torrent, those that do may just be used to public trackers, you can teach them everything in the book, but if they just dont want to do it, then they wont do it.

Which user is more deserving of an invite, and which user will probably get one.

A: Ul:400 gig DL 400gig helpful in comments/forums/IRC
B: UL 1TB DL 20gig Never seen in comments/forums/IRC

Without user A there is noone for user B to upload to.

Traders usually are collectors, you dont "need" to get into any tracker, but if the chance comes along, then take it, you dont "need" to trade to get into anywhere, you dont need to arse lick either, just take part in the communities you are a member off (which will make those communites even better) and the offers will come.

This is just my take on it, I am not one of these and I have never heard any staffer say this, but its about competition, how many private trackers are there 1000`s, but lets take the ones in the WTO, guessing off the top of my head 100 in there. now level 1-4 have 100,000+ members, lvl 10 have 2000 ish members, how many of the lvl 8-10 members, are in a few 1-4 trackers, i would say 99% of them, so we are all fighting for their "custom", now whether that is Tracker activity, community activity, Donations or whatever, its still competition, so its more, if you go there, you are going to leave us, so we are going to loose a good member, even though we do everything tracker lvl 8-10 does (and maybe even do it better). Or, why were we not good enough for you, why didnt you like is etc etc etc.

as for the traders, most start out with the curiosity of a cat, hmm TL wonder what thats like, oh great i can trade my BCG invite for it, next its, oh, lvl6 tracker, i can trade my TL invite for it, just because i want to see what its got, then lvl 6 invite to get a lvl 7 etc etc, and then like anything, it gets addictive, its like pokemon "gotta have them all" and usually at any cost.

My take is, as long as trackers are closed, and they have invites that are based on ratio (which is a lot easier now than it was 5 years ago, just with the advent of seedboxes, and not 32KBs upload for most), then you will get traders, and even if they give invites to everyone, they will still get traders, if you make it harder/more involved to get invites (like IRC participation, not just idling, forum posting but not just in the "what music are you listening to"/"the girl next door thread") then maybe you will get members that actually care something for the tracker, so have no need to trade.

I dont really care about invite traders, but i do think "why, are we not good enough or something?" when i see our referrals getting traded, I have ran a tracker for 7 years now, and have put a lot into it, so when someone decides to trade to get into somewhere else, I am going to think "why". OK its just the net, and the net is full of strange people, but it still gets to me sometimes, other times its just, fuck you then lol

I am not sure if i answered the OPs question there, or just went off on one, but its 3am and thats all you are getting off me tonight (and no i am not drunk lol)

I'm not reading all of that since I'm sure it says nothing that hasn't been said here a ton of times already. But my opinion, no...of course not all invite trading is bad. Stoi has given a great example in the past of invite trading that doesn't harm anything.

I believe stoi has given a great example of the different type of users. I never traded before but I look at it this way. Trading will get you burned in the end. It's just not worth it. You should have to earn your way into a tracker that you want by helping out others with their questions, obeying the rules, respect the staff, being active on forums, hanging out on irc and actually downloading/uploading torrents while maintaining a good ratio on all of them. That's just my $0.02.

yesno, simply put. there are two sides to everything, like your butt, it has two cheeks, when you get tired of sitting on the right one you switch to the left one. Or if your butt get's tired in general you stand. It will never end.

Let's discuss undercover bittorrent agents, and exposing them, they need to die. It's a bunch of bullshit when you say you don't have to lick ass to get known, it's quite the opposite. Mod's do it all the time to see how much more irritated they can get their e-penis, and regular users do it to become mods because they see by example and think they are going to get a bigger e-penis. haha.

So my 2 cents is I feel that you should do it, try it for fun, trade a demonoid invite. I did it just to see what responses I would get and who was responding (hello, isn't that the same shit you mod's do to ban people, oh yeah, but you get new user names), yes I did get banned from two trackers, only because a small punk was kissing ass, but it's ok, I have moved on, hell, I may even be back with those trackers, but I leave that for that punk to figure out and my signature to love always. :-)~

@bigdaddydude - how the f**k do you even have the patience to sit in front of a computer? Shouldn't you be at the gym lifting weights, getting pumped up, watching your muscles grow? LOL.

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Originally Posted by TraLaLa

Again this drama.

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^^ Best post so fa.
Ya guys are simply wasting time arguing about something which won't lead to anything conclusive. Traders will keep trading. Anti traders and others will keep doing whatever suits their immediate interests. Nothing is going to change that. Period.

well i am probably one of those staff that hates anti traders more than traders (or at least with equal measure lol) I cant stand ass kissing, and you can see it a mile off, we are not all gullable you know, we have got minds of our own, and can see a prospective good staffer without them falling over backwards to help (with finding traders etc).

The bottom line is though, the rules of the tracker say no trading, and you trade, and they catch you, then you are going to get burnt, the trick is not to get caught lol

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Originally Posted by amirji

@bigdaddydude - how the f**k do you even have the patience to sit in front of a computer? Shouldn't you be at the gym lifting weights, getting pumped up, watching your muscles grow? LOL.

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I see you like my avatar picture. Lol

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Originally Posted by sez

Now here's somebody who takes his torrenting a little bit too seriously,you provide so much to shit on that I don't even know where to start.When preparing a list of scum in BT though,it's strongly advised you start with p2pg and some of the people who run these closed BT/possibly kiddie porn swapping forums.
I think you need to rethink how you approach BT,try looking at it the way you do the spam folder in your email account.

100% of torrent sites that have closed thus far aren't there because of idiot staffers not traders.Perhaps you should clarify that 'traders are banned not because they trade but because they are scum' part otherwise you need to produce this scummeter that you are using so we all can see it.

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Come back and patronize me some more later, at least my post had an argument better than "LOL KIDDIE PORN SWAP". And I think BREIN might have something to say about the second bit.

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Let's discuss undercover bittorrent agents, and exposing them, they need to die. It's a bunch of bullshit when you say you don't have to lick ass to get known, it's quite the opposite. Mod's do it all the time to see how much more irritated they can get their e-penis, and regular users do it to become mods because they see by example and think they are going to get a bigger e-penis. haha.

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Funny, people manage to follow the board rules here without it being considered "kissing ass". As I already said, the people concerned with kissing ass are the same people still hung up on the stupid WTAW thing. And from what I've seen, the asskissing generally has the opposite of the intended effect. I certainly never feel the urge to invite some grovelling sycophant to some "1337 tracker".

Then again, traders tend to view things as typing more than a handful of words as "too much work", so it's not surprising that those who post on forums (other than trade offers) and use IRC are seen as kissasses. By the way dude, you're a total badass for trading that demonoid invite. I kinda want to be you.

Yes, this subject is like beating a dead horse...But here I go.

There is only one kind of trader that really bothers me. The one that never stops trading and that trades to simply try and get away with it. I think it is a game for them. The game goes both ways since I was one of those that enjoyed outsmarting them at their game. But I tired of it. Maybe because, as it has been mentioned, it will never go away and I have better things to do.

If you have no personable skills, are lazy, or any number of other reason I can somewhat understand why you might trade to get somewhere that you really want to be at and use. In theory, if you were one of these people I can't see why you would ever need to make more than 10, or so, trades ever. Unfortunately, it seems many get addicted to trading or the power trip of besting a site. Whatever reason it is, the ones that never stop are the problem people cause they really could give two shits about sites.

My oxymoron for the day...

There are good traders, bad traders, and traders that simply don't know any better (simply new to all this torrent shizzle).

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Originally Posted by bumrocks

There is only one kind of trader that really bothers me. The one that never stops trading and that trades to simply try and get away with it.

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Yeah, I don't think anyone can justify that kind of trader.

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Originally Posted by bumrocks

There are good traders, bad traders, and traders that simply don't know any better (simply new to all this torrent shizzle).

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What are the good kind of traders in your eyes? I did not know you supported certain kinds of trades. :O

it may be considered spam

but i am very happy with my new connection

http://www.speedtest.net/result/892200631.png

just wanted to share my happiness with my some friends here

such an unlimited connection cost 1000 $ per month here in India, but this is my office net connection, which is great.

I know some traders who trade to earn their school fees and they hack things and sell it for earing their livelihood i call them good traders, but they are good at heart also and help people who cannot afford some things. i consider them to be good people.

this world is very big, with lot of diversity

bumrocks very well said, hats off to u, just hearing name of trader or cheater we should not over react, its better we know the situation and the person first, moreover this whole world runs on trade one way or another, and generally ever normal person cheats somewhere in his real life let it be exams or pickpocketing or using pirated things or anything else, why overreact at such things, let people decide what is good for them and what not.

just dont be g ready and dont be selfish, moreover help people who are really in need of.

dont waste time in stating what is right and wrong for others, we should decide what is right and wrong for us and our friends and our loved once.

just dont jump to conclusion without being too sure of things, their are every chances of ourself to be wrong under these conditions.

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Originally Posted by BABBY

just dont jump to conclusion without being too sure of things, their are every chances of ourself to be wrong under these conditions.

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So what you are basically saying is that we should just ignore the whole purpose of the internet?

internet has no logic or purpose :) live with it :)

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Originally Posted by 1000possibleclaws

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Originally Posted by bumrocks

There are good traders, bad traders, and traders that simply don't know any better (simply new to all this torrent shizzle).

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What are the good kind of traders in your eyes? I did not know you supported certain kinds of trades. :O

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Even though it goes against everything most trackers set rules about, I would rather someone trade and use the site and be active (because they actually wanted to be a member) unlike the person before them that simply had the account to trade with. I would have to say this would qualify as a good trade, at least on one side. The reality is that not everyone has the communication, personal skills, or smarts to make friends and get invited to some sites.

The other side of reality is, that if staff find out that you traded, regardless of your activity, you are gonna get banned. Of course there are sites that make exceptions (usually cause you have given them money) but it is for the most part rare.

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Lets say you have five monkeys in a cage. You put a banana in the cage, and everytime a monkey tries to get it you spray them all with a hose. Eventually these 5 monkeys understand what’s up and don’t try to get the banana. Now lets say you replace one of the five monkeys with a new monkey. The new monkey goes to get the banana and the other four monkeys attack it. The monkey tries again with the same result, and eventually the new monkey gives up. Now lets say you replace a second monkey. The new monkey tries to get the banana, and all the other monkeys attack it, including the monkey that was aded previously. Lets say that you do this 3 more times, so none of the original monkeys are there. All these monkeys don’t go for the banana because they were attacked when they tried. But do they know why they were attacked? No. They have never seen the hose that the original monkeys were sprayed with, and yet they will attack any monkey that tries to get the banana.

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hey nice thoughts.....but trading is not good...because sharing is caring......

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Originally Posted by Zevaka

internet has no logic or purpose :) live with it :)

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Life has no logic or purpose but still holds moments of beauty and wonder .On the other hand the internet is like life if God were to be replaced by his retarded brother .

If you want to offer something nice to someone and want to get something nice in return, then there is nothing wrong with trading in this particular example. If two traders are good people and they simply want to enjoy the trackers they want to get into, there is nothing wrong with exchanging invites to those trackers.

so you're talking about nice guys who are too greedy to give invite to another good guy... they need something in return
come on, the only legit (in all means) trade may be between two friends. But then it cannot be even called trade, in my opinion.

Yeah, trading is bad. What else is a tracker supposed to say? Everyone know trading is going on and we all give out invites to strangers on the internet, and it's no hiding that. But a tracker can't afford to have that policy. Ofcourse new blood is better than a incestious tracker, but they have to be smart about how they let in new people and get rid of others. So I guess the rules are there to be broken.

I have gotten invites in thanks for giveaways via PM (not on this forum, you cheaps). And I don't feel bad about it. Is it trading? Technically it is. Did it get trusted users into new sites? Yes it did.

There is a thin line. Follow it and you'll be alright.

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Originally Posted by Speedo

Yeah, trading is bad. What else is a tracker supposed to say? Everyone know trading is going on and we all give out invites to strangers on the internet, and it's no hiding that. But a tracker can't afford to have that policy. Ofcourse new blood is better than a incestious tracker, but they have to be smart about how they let in new people and get rid of others. So I guess the rules are there to be broken.

I have gotten invites in thanks for giveaways via PM (not on this forum, you cheaps). And I don't feel bad about it. Is it trading? Technically it is. Did it get trusted users into new sites? Yes it did.

There is a thin line. Follow it and you'll be alright.

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Bullshit, what you basically are saying is that trackers needs traders.They wont do much shit there,eventually fake a great ratio to get invites and continue trading to get more and more high level trackers.

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Originally Posted by TraLaLa

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Originally Posted by Speedo

Yeah, trading is bad. What else is a tracker supposed to say? Everyone know trading is going on and we all give out invites to strangers on the internet, and it's no hiding that. But a tracker can't afford to have that policy. Ofcourse new blood is better than a incestious tracker, but they have to be smart about how they let in new people and get rid of others. So I guess the rules are there to be broken.

I have gotten invites in thanks for giveaways via PM (not on this forum, you cheaps). And I don't feel bad about it. Is it trading? Technically it is. Did it get trusted users into new sites? Yes it did.

There is a thin line. Follow it and you'll be alright.

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Bullshit, what you basically are saying is that trackers needs traders.They wont do much shit there,eventually fake a great ratio to get invites and continue trading to get more and more high level trackers.

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Where the hell do I say that? I don't think thats true but it happens like anything illegal does. What I'm saying is that trackers have a flow of members going in and out of the tracker and some of that comes from trading. What does tracker prefer do you think? Traders or open invites? Trading is not good at all but that doesn't mean that it doesn't happen at all, and can't be considered a good thing for people that want to keep their trackers safe.

Well, if you ask me, I'll not trade invites to anyone because of the very fact that he/she can abuse that account and I may be get banned for that reason!

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Originally Posted by bijoy

Well, if you ask me, I'll not trade invites to anyone because of the very fact that he/she can abuse that account and I may be get banned for that reason!

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You can use that exact same logic to not even giveaway invites... :dry:

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Originally Posted by ringhunter

You can use that exact same logic to not even giveaway invites... :dry:

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Very true, not to mention many trackers forbid public giveaways, which makes them as disallowed as trading.

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Originally Posted by anon-sbi

many trackers forbid public giveaways, which makes them as disallowed as trading.

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And yet, only one tracker's staff approached me about a public giveaway I had; promised me I will never have invite privileges again, and then proceeded to give me two invites about a week ago (I can only assume that it's because both my previous invitees are in great standing status wise).

All I'm trying to say is I'm on Speedo's side in this particular instance. Trackers need fresh blood, and if you're going to restrict people to inviting just their very exclusive group of friends, then all you'll end up with is Tard1 inviting Tard2 and Tard3 to 600 different trackers (not that that already doesn't happen, but on the flip side, there is member variety on trackers).

EDIT: Not to mention that I have only one real life friend interested in torrenting (two, soon enough, but the second I met through torrenting) and I'm not about to impose my invites on him just so I can say I did him/the tracker a favor. He's content with TL, and I assume with very few exceptions, most people don't have real life friends that go around saying "FTN is my dream tracker let's hunt it down."

You need to get over the idea that people does anything illegal in the open, thats not how trading works.

Trading is that you give someone an invite to a site, but then the person that got in there want to say thanks and then offer you an invite to a site he knows. And it is all in the pm's. The public forums know nothing.

So why doesn't I have Bitme with this theory? Because they are all a bunch of douchebags.

Invite trading is OK as long as you don't get caught and as long as you don't trade with assholes. The latter seems to be the main problem.