Another Border Patrol Agent has been killed in Arizona.

Our border, as well all know, is very safe and secure, and the feds are doing a great job of protecting our national sovereignty. Thanks Obama, and thanks Janet Napolitano! Keep up the good work!



http://www.kpho.com/news/26140726/detail.html

NOGALES, Ariz. -- A U.S. Border Patrol agent was killed during an exchange of gunfire between agents and several armed individuals near the Arizona-Mexico border, according to an inside Border Patrol report.

The head of a Border Patrol agents' union said agent Brian A. Terry was shot to death Tuesday night north of the Arizona-Mexico border while trying to catch "bandits" who target illegal immigrants.

•Slideshow: Images: Inside Look At Border Agent Killing

•Text Statement from the National Association of Former Border Patrol Officers

National Border Patrol Council President T.J. Bonner said Terry was waiting with three other agents in a remote area north of Nogales late last night when a gun battle with the bandits ensued. No other agents were injured, but one of the suspects was wounded in the shootout.

The Border Patrol said that Manuel Arianes, a.k.a. Manuel Arellanes Osorio, was wounded in the gunfight.

Arianes, 34, and a Mexican national, was convicted in Maricopa County Superior Court in 2006 for aggravated assault on a police officer, and had been deported to Mexico twice, according to sources familiar with his case.

See how secure our border is?! They can come across whenever they feel like it and we can't (or won't) stop them. Thank you, Federal Government, for not helping us, and instead suing us in Federal Court over SB 1070!
Border Patrol spokesman Eric Cantu and FBI spokeswoman Brenda Lee Nath declined to confirm Bonner's account, but said authorities have four suspects in custody and are searching for a fifth.

FBI Special Agent Manuel J. Johnson confirmed authorities were still searching for a fifth suspect.

Johnson said Terry died shortly after he was shot about 11:15 p.m. in a remote and rugged area near Rio Rico, just north of Nogales.

No names of those in custody were available, Johnson said.

"Our thoughts and prayers are with the Terry family for their tragic loss," said U.S. Customs and Border Protection Commissioner Alan Bersin.

"Our commitment to Agent Terry and his family is that we will do everything possible to bring to justice those responsible for this despicable act" Bersin said.

“This is a stark reminder of the realities we face each and every day in protecting this border and protecting our communities,” said deputy chief Richard Barlow, United States Border Patrol, Tucson sector.

The FBI is leading the investigation with cooperation of the Santa Cruz County Sheriff's Office, according to CBP.

"Today we are deeply saddened by the loss of Agent Brian Terry, a patrol officer from the Nogales Border Patrol Station," the Arizona Cattleman's Association said in a news release. "We are thankful for his dedicated service to protecting the United States of America."

U.S. Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., said, "This event is yet another reminder of the dangers the men and women of the Border Patrol face every day as they put their lives on the line to protect the American people.

"The increased violence in the border region demands that Congress provide the necessary resources and personnel to ensure the safety of all Americans, especially border patrol agents stationed on the border, and fulfill the Federal government's responsibility to secure our border," McCain said.

Terry was 40 years old. He is survived by his parents and three brothers and sisters

So, what would you like to see happen?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 999969999

Our border, as well all know, is very safe and secure, and the feds are doing a great job of protecting our national sovereignty. Thanks Obama, and thanks Janet Napolitano! Keep up the good work!



http://www.kpho.com/news/26140726/detail.html

NOGALES, Ariz. -- A U.S. Border Patrol agent was killed during an exchange of gunfire between agents and several armed individuals near the Arizona-Mexico border, according to an inside Border Patrol report.

The head of a Border Patrol agents' union said agent Brian A. Terry was shot to death Tuesday night north of the Arizona-Mexico border while trying to catch "bandits" who target illegal immigrants.

•Text Statement from the National Association of Former Border Patrol Officers

National Border Patrol Council President T.J. Bonner said Terry was waiting with three other agents in a remote area north of Nogales late last night when a gun battle with the bandits ensued. No other agents were injured, but one of the suspects was wounded in the shootout.

The Border Patrol said that Manuel Arianes, a.k.a. Manuel Arellanes Osorio, was wounded in the gunfight.

Arianes, 34, and a Mexican national, was convicted in Maricopa County Superior Court in 2006 for aggravated assault on a police officer, and had been deported to Mexico twice, according to sources familiar with his case.

See how secure our border is?! They can come across whenever they feel like it and we can't (or won't) stop them. Thank you, Federal Government, for not helping us, and instead suing us in Federal Court over SB 1070!
Border Patrol spokesman Eric Cantu and FBI spokeswoman Brenda Lee Nath declined to confirm Bonner's account, but said authorities have four suspects in custody and are searching for a fifth.

FBI Special Agent Manuel J. Johnson confirmed authorities were still searching for a fifth suspect.

Johnson said Terry died shortly after he was shot about 11:15 p.m. in a remote and rugged area near Rio Rico, just north of Nogales.

No names of those in custody were available, Johnson said.

"Our thoughts and prayers are with the Terry family for their tragic loss," said U.S. Customs and Border Protection Commissioner Alan Bersin.

"Our commitment to Agent Terry and his family is that we will do everything possible to bring to justice those responsible for this despicable act" Bersin said.

“This is a stark reminder of the realities we face each and every day in protecting this border and protecting our communities,” said deputy chief Richard Barlow, United States Border Patrol, Tucson sector.

The FBI is leading the investigation with cooperation of the Santa Cruz County Sheriff's Office, according to CBP.

"Today we are deeply saddened by the loss of Agent Brian Terry, a patrol officer from the Nogales Border Patrol Station," the Arizona Cattleman's Association said in a news release. "We are thankful for his dedicated service to protecting the United States of America."

U.S. Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., said, "This event is yet another reminder of the dangers the men and women of the Border Patrol face every day as they put their lives on the line to protect the American people.

"The increased violence in the border region demands that Congress provide the necessary resources and personnel to ensure the safety of all Americans, especially border patrol agents stationed on the border, and fulfill the Federal government's responsibility to secure our border," McCain said.

Terry was 40 years old. He is survived by his parents and three brothers and sisters

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Excuse my confusion. What exactly are 'bandits? Are they American citizens trying to shoot people trying to enter America illegally? If so, you can hardly blame Obama for that.

The 5 "bandits" in the area are known for drug smuggling, human trafficking, and extreme violence. They target and rob illegal immigrants as they cross the border. In other words, Mexicans robbing Mexicans.

The group you're describing is usually referred to as a "border militia" or "citizen patrol"; a different but related topic.

:shuriken:

I wonder how much the border violence problem might be mitigated if the US wasn't supplying weapons to the bandits.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by clocker

So, what would you like to see happen?

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I would like to see the Federal Government actually do its job by defending the borders of all the states bordering Mexico.

It has made it quite clear in its lawsuit against Arizona's 1070 law that immigration issues are a Federal issue, not a state issue, and they seem to act outraged that Arizona would do anything to try to discourage illegal immigrants from coming to Arizona, and yet, the Federal Government has failed to do its job to stop illegal immigrants from flooding across the border, which is why Arizona is trying to reduce the number of illegal aliens coming here and reduce the numbers of those already here through attrition.

I am making the assumption that the Feds really don't want to stop illegal immigration for a myriad of reasons. One is that businesses want cheap labor they can use and abuse. Both Republicans and Democrats are guilty of that one. Another is that Democrats see them as potential voters. And there are others, of course.

If I was in charge, I would build a huge fence all the way along the border. No, it won't stop them from crossing, but it will slow them down long enough to catch them. I would also hire enough border patrol agents to completely secure the entire border and stop people from crossing it illegally. And I would hire enough of them to properly man all the points of entry and checkpoints and seaports to make sure that no one gets across our borders illegally.

If we cannot (or will not) stop people from coming here whenever they feel like it, then we are losing our national sovereignty.

Manuel Arianes had been deported twice already (once after he assaulted a police officer!), and yet he kept coming across our border illegally until he was involved in the killing of one of our border patrol agents. The southern part of Arizona is becoming a war zone with illegal aliens attacking other illegal aliens and now, American citizens.

There are parts of the Arizona desert with signs telling hikers to avoid the area because it is no longer safe to be in parts of their own country.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbeyHmWbQjs

"Danger-Public Warning
Travel Not Recommended
Active Drug and Human Smuggling Area
Visitors May Encounter Armed Criminals and Smuggling Vehicles Traveling at High Rates of Speed
Stay Away from Trash, Clothing, Backpacks, and Abandoned Vehicles
If You See Suspicious Activity, DO NOT CONFRONT! Move Away and Call 911
BLM Encourages Visitors to Use Public Lands North of Interstate 8
For More Information, call 623-580-5500"




We are gradually losing control over parts of our own country. I don't blame the illegal aliens for this. I blame us. We have not been doing our job to protect our own country from invaders. It is up to us. It is not up to Mexico to protect us. We need to start protecting ourselves from this invasion.

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Originally Posted by clocker

I wonder how much the border violence problem might be mitigated if the US wasn't supplying weapons to the bandits.

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How could they get the weapons if the Federal Government did its job by preventing them from illegally crossing the border to get the weapons?

If the Feds controlled the border properly, humans, drugs and weapons would no longer be able to flow across the border illegally at all.

First of all, I can't think of a single example of a non-porous border...anywhere or anytime.
Can you?

Second, what you propose seems very similar to the approach taken by the TSA- i.e., lots of manpower and lots of tech- which hasn't shown any tangible results but certainly has made our lives more miserable.

I would suggest that some relatively simple political changes would have more impact than the Big Fence approach.
Legalize the drugs that make smuggling so profitable and prosecute the employers who depend on illegal labor, for starters.

Beyond that, I don't know.
I do think that we all will have to accept a certain amount of porosity at the border unless we're willing to turn into a North Korea military dictatorship.
Which is kind of humorous actually...N. Korea has the template for the border you seem to envision but it defends a country no one wants to get into.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 999969999

If the Feds controlled the border properly, humans, drugs and weapons would no longer be able to flow across the border illegally at all.

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You do know that the border patrol agent (may he RIP) that you used as an example for your talk radio fueled rant was a federal enforcement officer and was killed while protecting the border?

I'm glad you appreciate his sacrifice, really I am, but I'm also sorry you feel he and other agents like him either didn't want to do the job or simply wasn't up to the task.

He wasn't killed because the federal government isn't enforcing the border, he was killed while enforcing it.

How do you intend to pay for your plan?

I have an idea.

We can't afford to patrol/control/defend our border properly, or at all, really, and we certainly don't want to lose any more lives, so why don't we just abandon the border?

Really.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by clocker

First of all, I can't think of a single example of a non-porous border...anywhere or anytime.
Can you?

As an American tourist in Europe, attempting to legally cross the Austrian border, and later when attempting to legally cross the Finnish border, I encountered a great deal of scrutiny and observation-- much more than when I cross back and forth between the Nogales checkpoint into Mexico. So yes, I do think we can do better than we are currently doing.


Second, what you propose seems very similar to the approach taken by the TSA- i.e., lots of manpower and lots of tech- which hasn't shown any tangible results but certainly has made our lives more miserable.

A lot of this is because we are terrified of profiling.


I would suggest that some relatively simple political changes would have more impact than the Big Fence approach.
Legalize the drugs that make smuggling so profitable and prosecute the employers who depend on illegal labor, for starters.

On this, I agree with you. The war on drugs is a lost cause. If they were legalized to the point where druggies could just go down to Wal-Mart and buy their drugs legally, most of the crime associated with smuggling would come to an end. I would go one step further, of course, and say that if druggies get caught driving under the influence of these drugs, they would face extremely harsh penalties-- so harsh that it would discourage them from DUI. If they simply buy the drugs and then go home and use them at home, I don't care. But if they use the drugs and then go out and hurt someone, then I do care. And if employers were punished for hiring illegal aliens-- remember Arizona is being sued for its employer sanctions law and the U.S. Supreme Court is currently hearing arguments for and against it-- there would be less of a desire for illegal aliens to cross the border because there would be no jobs waiting for them in the U.S.


Beyond that, I don't know.
I do think that we all will have to accept a certain amount of porosity at the border unless we're willing to turn into a North Korea military dictatorship.
Which is kind of humorous actually...N. Korea has the template for the border you seem to envision but it defends a country no one wants to get into.

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So, it can be done. Just because we have a secure border doesn't mean we have to be a military dictatorship like North Korea. But yes, along the border, we must have enough manpower to actually get the job done. What we are doing currently is scattering a handful of border patrol agents along the border to pretend that we are actually serious about controlling our border, and then they are of course, hopelessly outmanned and overwhelmed by the flood of illegals coming across our border.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by devilsadvocate

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 999969999

If the Feds controlled the border properly, humans, drugs and weapons would no longer be able to flow across the border illegally at all.

---

You do know that the border patrol agent (may he RIP) that you used as an example for your talk radio fueled rant was a federal enforcement officer and was killed while protecting the border?



I'm glad you appreciate his sacrifice, really I am, but I'm also sorry you feel he and other agents like him either didn't want to do the job or simply wasn't up to the task.

That's not what I said. The Federal Government is not puting enough border patrol agents along the border to do the job properly. That is why he was killed. I want the Federal Government to stop pretending that it is doing its job. I want the Federal Government to actually do its job by puting ENOUGH border patrol agents along the border to truly stop all people from coming here illegally.

Parts of my state are already becoming too dangerous for American citizens to go into, and I don't think that is good thing. We are losing our sovereignty. You may not care, but I do.


He wasn't killed because the federal government isn't enforcing the border, he was killed while enforcing it.

He was killed because there weren't enough border patrol agents to stop these illegal aliens from crossing the border. They were already north of Nogales, Arizona, when they shot and killed him. They had already invaded the United States.


How do you intend to pay for your plan?

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Bring the military home from places like Germany to defend our borders. If we can't even defend our own borders, why is our military all over the world protecting other countries? It's ridiculous.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by j2k4

I have an idea.

We can't afford to patrol/control/defend our border properly, or at all, really, and we certainly don't want to lose any more lives, so why don't we just abandon the border?

Really.

---

I agree.

If we are unwilling to do the job properly, then we should stop pretending to do the job at all.

Just have completely open borders and take over Mexico and Canada and make it into one huge country.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 999969999

Quote:

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Originally Posted by j2k4

I have an idea.

We can't afford to patrol/control/defend our border properly, or at all, really, and we certainly don't want to lose any more lives, so why don't we just abandon the border?

Really.

---

I agree.

If we are unwilling to do the job properly, then we should stop pretending to do the job at all.

Just have completely open borders and take over Mexico and Canada and make it into one huge country.

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What makes you think that you would just 'take over'? You might find it would work the other way round. with open borders the peoples of central America might just take over you. As for Canada, I don't think they want you, or your country.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 999969999

That's not what I said. The Federal Government is not puting enough border patrol agents along the border to do the job properly. That is why he was killed. I want the Federal Government to stop pretending that it is doing its job. I want the Federal Government to actually do its job by puting ENOUGH border patrol agents along the border to truly stop all people from coming here illegally.

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 999969999

He was killed because there weren't enough border patrol agents to stop these illegal aliens from crossing the border. They were already north of Nogales, Arizona, when they shot and killed him. They had already invaded the United States.

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Cops get shot, heck thousands of civilians are shot each year, How many would be enough cops? Are our troop being killed because there aren't enough? Would we see zero fatalities if we increased the amount deployed?

Now I agree we need more resources on the boarder, but you turned this incident into an incoherent rant.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 999969999

As an American tourist in Europe, attempting to legally cross the Austrian border, and later when attempting to legally cross the Finnish border, I encountered a great deal of scrutiny and observation-- much more than when I cross back and forth between the Nogales checkpoint into Mexico. So yes, I do think we can do better than we are currently doing.

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How does that relate to your original rant? Are you suggesting that the drug smugglers, the arms smugglers and the non violent job seeking economic illegal border crossers do so via checkpoints?

And the greater level of scrutiny you encountered in Europe may have something to do with not having a European passport.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 999969999

A lot of this is because we are terrified of profiling.

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Do you know what a "mule" is and why they are used? Profiling has dramatic limitations.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bigboab

As for Canada, I don't think they want you, or your country.

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You're probably right, Walmart doesn't sell seal meat.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by devilsadvocate

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bigboab

As for Canada, I don't think they want you, or your country.

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You're probably right, Walmart doesn't sell seal meat.

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Walmart(Asda) does not sell anything bordering* on meat.

* See what I did there to keep on topic.:whistling

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 999969999

Quote:

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Originally Posted by j2k4

I have an idea.

We can't afford to patrol/control/defend our border properly, or at all, really, and we certainly don't want to lose any more lives, so why don't we just abandon the border?

Really.

---

I agree.

If we are unwilling to do the job properly, then we should stop pretending to do the job at all.

---

It's all in the definition of "properly" now, isn't it?

I imagine your concept of a properly defended border to be something of a Great Wall of China meets Star Wars, heavy technology type of thing.
There's a lesson to be learned from the Maginot Line that would be applicable here.

Instead of immediately (and exclusively) unpacking Halliburton's Lego set (and seriously, who else do you think will get the contract?), maybe look back and pinpoint the time when illegal immigration tipped over from a nuisance to a major problem and ask what changed to make it happen.

The problem with Fortress America is that once started, it cannot and will not stop.
Just like Skynet, the nature of the beast is to incorporate a fierce and ever expanding sense of self-preservation, and to do so early on.

A big reason to leave Iraq/Afghanistan (or wherever) is to decrease the military budget (and start spending it on things to benefit us), not merely transplant the machine to a new locale.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by devilsadvocate

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bigboab

As for Canada, I don't think they want you, or your country.

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You're probably right, Walmart doesn't sell seal meat.

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Its dog-sled repair service isn't much to write home about either. And its "maple-flavoured syrup" is a travesty.

:shuriken:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MagicNakor

Quote:

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Originally Posted by devilsadvocate

You're probably right, Walmart doesn't sell seal meat.

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Its dog-sled repair service isn't much to write home about either. And its "maple-flavoured syrup" is a travesty.

:shuriken:

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China doesn't make dog sleds :unsure:

And even Walmart wouldn't sell "maple-flavoured syrup". They do have maple flavored syrup next to the sugar free maple and brown sugar oatmeal, one isle over from the frozen freedom fries. :snooty:

i will respond to these comments in more detail later, but I am going on another trip over Christmas and New Year's, and so, I'm going to be quite busy packing and getting ready for my trip with my family.

Have a fun Christmas and a Happy New Year everybody!!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by clocker

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 999969999

I agree.

If we are unwilling to do the job properly, then we should stop pretending to do the job at all.

---

It's all in the definition of "properly" now, isn't it?

I imagine your concept of a properly defended border to be something of a Great Wall of China meets Star Wars, heavy technology type of thing.
There's a lesson to be learned from the Maginot Line that would be applicable here.

Instead of immediately (and exclusively) unpacking Halliburton's Lego set (and seriously, who else do you think will get the contract?), maybe look back and pinpoint the time when illegal immigration tipped over from a nuisance to a major problem and ask what changed to make it happen.

The problem with Fortress America is that once started, it cannot and will not stop.
Just like Skynet, the nature of the beast is to incorporate a fierce and ever expanding sense of self-preservation, and to do so early on.

A big reason to leave Iraq/Afghanistan (or wherever) is to decrease the military budget (and start spending it on things to benefit us), not merely transplant the machine to a new locale.

---

Al that typing, and no border ideas?

Well, then.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 999969999

i will respond to these comments in more detail later, but I am going on another trip over Christmas and New Year's, and so, I'm going to be quite busy packing and getting ready for my trip with my family.

Have a fun Christmas and a Happy New Year everybody!!!

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Have fun, youngster, and think kindly of the poor while you are away - there's a good lad.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by j2k4

Al that typing, and no border ideas?

Well, then.

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Well, first we could stop conflating border violence from the drug war with illegal immigration.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by clocker

Quote:

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Originally Posted by j2k4

Al that typing, and no border ideas?

Well, then.

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Well, first we could stop conflating border violence from the drug war with illegal immigration.

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Yes.

That will surely have an immediate effect on the death toll.

Do you seriously believe the drug lords aren't dangling entry in exchange for mule services?

One gate for illegals carrying drugs, another for everyone else?

What?

This violence, whatever it's genesis, is occurring in close proximity to everything else that is happening down there.

It is unavoidable.

It is, however, less-than-tragic - it is utterly stupid.

So, your scenario here is the drug agents were firing bean bags at illegal immigrants who were armed by drug lords so they could smuggle in contraband.
Because women and children are well known for their Sherpa-like capacity for haulage with the bonus feature of excellent/fearless marksmanship.
These ninja mamacitas then morph into nannies and taco stand owners, thus depriving us of a level playing field, employment-wise.

You do realize that any solution you apply at the current friction spot (Mexican border) had better be hugely scaleable, capable of extending along both coasts and ultimately across the far longer Canadian land border?
No criminal, faced with a lucrative market, is going to waste much time on a headlong assault at the most highly defended point when there are several thousand miles of completely undefended coastline just waiting to be exploited.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by clocker

So, your scenario here is the drug agents were firing bean bags at illegal immigrants who were armed by drug lords so they could smuggle in contraband.
Because women and children are well known for their Sherpa-like capacity for haulage with the bonus feature of excellent/fearless marksmanship.
These ninja mamacitas then morph into nannies and taco stand owners, thus depriving us of a level playing field, employment-wise.

You do realize that any solution you apply at the current friction spot (Mexican border) had better be hugely scaleable, capable of extending along both coasts and ultimately across the far longer Canadian land border?
No criminal, faced with a lucrative market, is going to waste much time on a headlong assault at the most highly defended point when there are several thousand miles of completely undefended coastline just waiting to be exploited.

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So, then-

Pull everybody off the border, and leave it alone, which is what you want - no problem.

And your proposal is what, again?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by clocker

And your proposal is what, again?

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My idea is to totally cave to the liberal imperative by vacating the border and abandoning the very idea of controlling traffic over it in either direction.

Oh, and also to insure those who cross in a northerly direction are furnished with credentials allowing them to vote and perhaps a primer on how avail themselves of every aspect of U.S. entitlement largesse.

So, you've no ideas at all then.
I am not surprised.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by clocker

So, you've no ideas at all then.
I am not surprised.

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And your only view on the matter is that rooting out weapons traffic from north of the border will put everything right...I mean left.

Which makes one idea more than you've provided.
Weaponized sarcasm- your only input to date- has proven ineffective.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by clocker

Weaponized sarcasm...

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Say what.

So, again...you got nuttin, huh?

The right seems to be all about what they're against- anything proposed by Obama and the Democrats- but decidedly short on things to be for.
Apparently, the mantra "Cut taxes! Get government out of my life!" doesn't apply to everything- or even most things- which leaves the right sputtering and directionless.

I guess we'll just have to wait till January when all the little T-lets get sworn in and see what a group of people who applied for a job with an organization they hate will do.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by clocker

So, again...you got nuttin, huh?

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Methinks 'tis you who has nothing.

We are arguing over nothing. This is bordering on insanity. Take a wee break and I hope you all enjoy the seasonal holiday. :)

http://ecard.ashland.edu/2004admission/index.html