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Public Employee Unions Must Be Crushed !
http://abcnews.go.com/US/protestors-...ry?id=12947666
These people are ridiculous! They have job security, decent wages, excellent health and retirement benefits, and when they are asked to contribute a tiny amount of their wages to help pay for their benefits, so the state can balance its budget, they take to the streets and riot.
Their unions need to be crushed!
And the Democrats in their state government are such chickens, they can't stand to face a vote that they know they will lose because they are now outnumbered by Republicans, that they flee to another state to prevent the vote from going forward. Imagine the outrage if Republicans pulled a stunt like that?
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Re: Public Employee Unions Must Be Crushed !
The state(s) made promises and signed contracts.
They then proceeded to underpay the funds that were supposed to guarantee their promises.
So, how is this the fault of the unions?
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Re: Public Employee Unions Must Be Crushed !
Quote:
Originally Posted by
999969999
http://abcnews.go.com/US/protestors-...ry?id=12947666
These people are ridiculous! They have job security, decent wages, excellent health and retirement benefits, and when they are asked to contribute a tiny amount of their wages to help pay for their benefits, so the state can balance its budget, they take to the streets and riot.
I think it's important to look at the actual reason for the protests and not a "point of view" version. ( it's becoming the anti union version of "they hate us for our freedoms"). As far as I'm aware there was a lot of give on the reduced benefits, the reason for the protests is the arbitrary doing away with collective bargaining. This has nothing to do with budget savings and everything to do with personal vendettas. It's worth noting that it only applied to certain unions. The police and firefighters unions that supported the governor in the elections are exempt.
To be fair the bill asks everyone but the legislator to take cuts. The state workers must take pay and benefit cuts and the wealthy must take a tax cut.
Their unions need to be crushed!
I've never been a union member, but I never understood what it is they are supposed to have done that's so evil. Is it workplace safety? improvement in worker conditions? Why shouldn't workers have the freedom to organize? Was there a major union problem with walkouts?
And the Democrats in their state government are such chickens, they can't stand to face a vote that they know they will lose because they are now outnumbered by Republicans, that they flee to another state to prevent the vote from going forward. Imagine the outrage if Republicans pulled a stunt like that?
This is the state version of the filibuster/cloture we have seen since Obama took power and to be honest I'm amazed the tea party people aren't happy about it as it's their dream of a government, or at least a legislative, shutdown.
I would have more respect for all these ideological cutbacks if the lawmakers led by example and started with their own pay and benefits.
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Re: Public Employee Unions Must Be Crushed !
People who aren't rich wanting a decent standard of living? Why I've never heard the like! The nerve.
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Re: Public Employee Unions Must Be Crushed !
The problems in Wisconsin are but the latest- and not surprisingly, the most obvious- attempts at breaking down the middle class even further.
Ever since Reagan- remember, one of his most famous moves was busting the air traffic controller union- it has been the desire of corporate America (and therefore a primary goal of the right) to completely disenfranchise the middle class and facilitate even faster transfer of wealth into the upper 1% of Americans.
We're not entering into class warfare, we've already lost the battle.
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Re: Public Employee Unions Must Be Crushed !
Quote:
Originally Posted by
999969999
http://abcnews.go.com/US/protestors-...ry?id=12947666
These people are ridiculous! They have job security, decent wages, excellent health and retirement benefits, and when they are asked to contribute a tiny amount of their wages to help pay for their benefits, so the state can balance its budget, they take to the streets and riot.
Their unions need to be crushed!
And the Democrats in their state government are such chickens, they can't stand to face a vote that they know they will lose because they are now outnumbered by Republicans, that they flee to another state to prevent the vote from going forward. Imagine the outrage if Republicans pulled a stunt like that?
Spoken like someone who has never worked for someone like you.
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Re: Public Employee Unions Must Be Crushed !
Am I the only one who sees what's wrong with this?
The only way to bring deficit government spending down is to bust these unions so that the government can adjust the salary and benefits of its employees to get them back down to where spending matches revenue.
Private businesses can't just print more money or ask for more bailouts when revenues fall. They have to adjust their budgets and fire people and reduce the salaries of remaining employees until they can get back to where their income matches or exceeds their expenditures.
Why shouldn't government be expected to do the same thing?
Why should government employees expect to continue making more money than their private business counterparts, and have better health benefits and retirement benefits than their private counterparts?
A lot of the people who are protesting are teachers. I would love to see every state have a voucher system, where parents would be free to send their kids to private schools using the amount of money the state pays per pupil at public schools. It may not completely pay for a Catholic school education, but it would come close, and the parents could make up the difference and get a much better education for their kids than what the public schools currently offer.
Suddenly public schools would have to get off their asses and compete with Catholic schools for students.
That would solve most of our education problems with lousy teachers and lazy administrators.
Back to unions... as we can see with our current trade deficit, even private sector unions get wages and benefits so high that we can't compete with the rest of the world in manufacturing. We need to destroy all the unions-- both public and private-- and get rid of the E.P.A., get rid of the Sierra Club, and we could start bringing back a large amount of manufacturing jobs to this country.
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Re: Public Employee Unions Must Be Crushed !
Quote:
Originally Posted by
999969999
Back to unions... as we can see with our current trade deficit, even private sector unions get wages and benefits so high that we can't compete with the rest of the world in manufacturing. We need to destroy all the unions-- both public and private-- and get rid of the E.P.A., get rid of the Sierra Club, and we could start bringing back a large amount of manufacturing jobs to this country.
I remember, not too long ago, you talking about how poor individuals could work hard, get educated, and succeed by getting better jobs. Now, you want to destroy those $30k/year jobs that require $100k in education to get. Without guaranteed (good) benefits, you aren't going to attract any good teachers to your already struggling public education system. Not to mention, vouchering away needed resources to private schools.
You are trying to balance budget by cutting one of the most sensitive, already stripped sectors. Teachers are not sinking the state(s) with their marginal salaries, and moderate benefits. Look elsewhere.
And unions (are supposed to) protect the "little guy" from broken promises, poor working conditions, and abuse. Without the unions, these teachers would have the option of abandoning their students, or eating the shit administrators want to feed them. Contracts are necessary because people/entities lie, cheat, and cut budgets. :ermm:
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Re: Public Employee Unions Must Be Crushed !
Quote:
Originally Posted by
999969999
Am I the only one who sees what's wrong with this?
The only way to bring deficit government spending down is to bust these unions so that the government can adjust the salary and benefits of its employees to get them back down to where spending matches revenue.
You know Spanky that what the bloviators of FoxNews aren't telling you is that Scott Walker created the Wisconsin budget deficit by giving away yet more corporate tax breaks and incentives.
He started with a budget SURPLUS.
Busting unions- which is exactly what this is all about- is NOT the only cure for deficit spending...raising corporate taxes would solve the problem.
Actually, turns out that 60% of all corporations in Wisconsin pay no taxes at all...perhaps just closing those loopholes would help, eh?
Of particular interest is the support shown the protesters by police and firemen, both explicitly and cynically excluded from the Rethug demands in an effort to turn the middle class upon itself and deflect scrutiny from the real actors.
9, you simply have a very feeble and malformed idea of what's going on here.
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Re: Public Employee Unions Must Be Crushed !
In an effort to have civil discourse, let's read what the horribly evil bill-- a bill so evil that Democrats don't want to even give the legislature (which was elected by the majority of voters, remember?) a chance to vote on it-- has to say...
http://legis.wisconsin.gov/JR1SB-11.pdf
Hmmm... government workers will now have the freedom to choose whether or not they want to join a union, and rather than the union dues coming out of their paycheck, they have the freedom to choose whether or not they want to pay them. How evil! That is truly worthy of all these protests and shutting down the government and denying the voice of the majority of voters. Hmmm.... isn't that what representative government is all about? The majority of voters get to be represented and have their voices heard? Or is that only true when Democrats are in the majority?
It seems that the only time Democrats like freedom of choice is when it involves killing unborn children. That is somehow a good thing. But giving government workers the right to choose is horribly evil and must be stopped.
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Re: Public Employee Unions Must Be Crushed !
Quit talking about the "will of the voters".
Poll after poll have shown that the majority of Wisconsin citizens DO NOT support Walker in this fight.
The Koch brothers DO support Walker because he wants to sell off power plants- in "no-bid" sales- to them at bargain basement prices.
By the way, it's nice you want to be civil, now let's try being informed as well.
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Re: Public Employee Unions Must Be Crushed !
Quote:
Originally Posted by
megabyteme
Quote:
Originally Posted by
999969999
Back to unions... as we can see with our current trade deficit, even private sector unions get wages and benefits so high that we can't compete with the rest of the world in manufacturing. We need to destroy all the unions-- both public and private-- and get rid of the E.P.A., get rid of the Sierra Club, and we could start bringing back a large amount of manufacturing jobs to this country.
You are trying to balance budget by cutting one of the most sensitive, already stripped sectors. Teachers
are not sinking the state(s) with their marginal salaries, and moderate benefits. Look elsewhere.
I'm not sure about Wisconsin's budget per se, but in Arizona, K-12 education takes up the majority of the state's budget. They are sinking our state. This is what happens when we import hundreds of thousands of extremely poor people, who depress wages, don't pay income taxes, and then take, take, take from government services, including schools.
Something has to give.
Socialism just doesn't work.
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Re: Public Employee Unions Must Be Crushed !
Quote:
Originally Posted by
clocker
Quit talking about the "will of the voters".
Poll after poll have shown that the majority of Wisconsin citizens DO NOT support Walker in this fight.
The Koch brothers DO support Walker because he wants to sell off power plants- in "no-bid" sales- to them at bargain basement prices.
By the way, it's nice you want to be civil, now let's try being informed as well.
Hello? Have you heard of representative government? Elections have consequences.
Or does it only matter when Democrats are in the majority?
When Democrats shoved Obamacare down our throats, the Republicans didn't pull a stunt like this.
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Re: Public Employee Unions Must Be Crushed !
Quote:
Originally Posted by
999969999
Hello? Have you heard of representative government? Elections have consequences.
Or does it only matter when Democrats are in the majority?
When Democrats shoved Obamacare down our throats, the Republicans didn't pull a stunt like this.
Didn't a bunch of state politicians flee Texas about 10 years ago to prevent a vote? Were they republicans? This isn't the first time something like this happened.
Also, you don't have socialism. You have social aspects of governing, such as education and emergency response (sans medical). Also, your specific state's budget problem is way oversimplified in your description of it. That slightly greater than 50 % of the budget also includes state post secondary education spending. Your statement implies primary/secondary schools should be mostly privatized.
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Re: Public Employee Unions Must Be Crushed !
Quote:
Originally Posted by
999969999
Hello? Have you heard of representative government? Elections have consequences.
Facts have consequences too, and no matter how many lies you propagate or how loudly you shout them, reality does not change.
Wisconsin's budget problems have absolutely NOTHING to do with union workers pensions.
The state's pension funding was 99.8% in place- fourth best performance in the nation- and was fine for the next 30 years.
In fact, transferring management of the fund from bankers back to state employees would save another $135 mill or so but that would piss off Wall Street and Walker is averse to that also.
BTW
After the lock-step refusal of Republicans to consider ANY of Obama's legislation from 2008 through 2010, you've lost the right to say "elections have consequences" now and forever.
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Re: Public Employee Unions Must Be Crushed !
Quote:
Originally Posted by
999969999
Quote:
Originally Posted by
megabyteme
You are trying to balance budget by cutting one of the most sensitive, already stripped sectors. Teachers are not sinking the state(s) with their marginal salaries, and moderate benefits. Look elsewhere.
I'm not sure about Wisconsin's budget per se, but in Arizona, K-12 education takes up the majority of the state's budget. They are sinking our state. This is what happens when we import hundreds of thousands of extremely poor people, who depress wages, don't pay income taxes, and then take, take, take from government services, including schools.
Something has to give.
Socialism just doesn't work.
Please clarify- is it the teachers, or the "hundreds of thousands of poor" who are sinking the state? :unsure: You seem to be grinding your anti-Mexican axe again, but want to take it out on the teachers. Is it because teachers are all "socialist"? :o
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Re: Public Employee Unions Must Be Crushed !
Quote:
Originally Posted by
999969999
Socialism just doesn't work.
Again you demonstrate a sad lack of knowledge.
Pensions are not "socialism".
Pensions and health benefits are part of the deal that the state made with teachers...you work for less (compared with comparably educated people in the private sector) and the payoff is a pension and health care.
It's a capitalist contract through and through.
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Re: Public Employee Unions Must Be Crushed !
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mjmacky
Quote:
Originally Posted by
999969999
Hello? Have you heard of representative government? Elections have consequences.
Or does it only matter when Democrats are in the majority?
When Democrats shoved Obamacare down our throats, the Republicans didn't pull a stunt like this.
Didn't a bunch of state politicians flee Texas about 10 years ago to prevent a vote? Were they republicans? This isn't the first time something like this happened.
Also, you don't have socialism. You have social aspects of governing, such as education and emergency response (sans medical). Also, your specific state's budget problem is way oversimplified in your description of it. That slightly greater than 50 % of the budget also includes state post secondary education spending. Your statement implies primary/secondary schools should be mostly privatized.
10 years ago? How would I know? I was going here back then... http://www.elks.net/_IS/is.asp
I can tell you that I've never heard of anything like this ever happening before. It's certainly not the way our representative government is supposed to function. They should show up and do their job... vote. That would be respecting the will of the voters, who this time around put a Republican majority in power.
I think Joseph Stalin and Vladimir Lenin would be in favor of unions. I think they are more socialistic than capitalistic.
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Re: Public Employee Unions Must Be Crushed !
Someday 9, what you "think" and reality will intersect and boy, will you be embarrassed by these posts.
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Re: Public Employee Unions Must Be Crushed !
Quote:
Originally Posted by
clocker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
999969999
Hello? Have you heard of representative government? Elections have consequences.
Facts have consequences too, and no matter how many lies you propagate or how loudly you shout them, reality does not change.
Wisconsin's budget problems have absolutely NOTHING to do with union workers pensions.
The state's pension funding was 99.8% in place- fourth best performance in the nation- and was fine for the next 30 years.
In fact, transferring management of the fund from bankers back to state employees would save another $135 mill or so but that would piss off Wall Street and Walker is averse to that also.
BTW
After the lock-step refusal of Republicans to consider ANY of Obama's legislation from 2008 through 2010, you've lost the right to say "elections have consequences" now and forever.
Just as liberals do not like freedom of choice when it comes to unions-- you know, freedom to join a union or to not join a union, freedom to pay union dues or not pay union dues, freedom to make these choices without being bullied by organized crime thugs, er I mean union bosses...--- liberals don't like freedom of speech, either, when it comes to this issue. Yes, elections do have consequences. The Democrats run away from their responisibilities like frightened little girls. The Republicans were outnumber for two years, but they showed up and voted, and then lost the vote, and had things like Obamacare shoved down their throats. Now Republicans are in power in certain areas and rather than respecting our representative government, the Democrats act like a bunch of chickens. I hope the voters remember this in 2012.
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Re: Public Employee Unions Must Be Crushed !
See post #19, it still applies.
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Re: Public Employee Unions Must Be Crushed !
Quote:
Originally Posted by
999969999
Just as liberals do not like freedom of choice when it comes to unions-- you know, freedom to join a union or to not join a union, freedom to pay union dues or not pay union dues, freedom to make these choices without being bullied by organized crime thugs, er I mean union bosses...--- liberals don't like freedom of speech, either, when it comes to this issue. Yes, elections do have consequences. The Democrats run away from their responisibilities like frightened little girls. The Republicans were outnumber for two years, but they showed up and voted, and then lost the vote, and had things like Obamacare shoved down their throats. Now Republicans are in power in certain areas and rather than respecting our representative government, the Democrats act like a bunch of chickens. I hope the voters remember this in 2012.
You seem awfully young to have suffered a stroke, but I am beginning to believe it more, and more, likely with each post you make.
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Re: Public Employee Unions Must Be Crushed !
Quote:
Originally Posted by
clocker
Someday 9, what you "think" and reality will intersect and boy, will you be embarrassed by these posts.
You sound like my grandparents. They told me that since they are paying for my entire college education, including room and board, and transportation, they expect me to "stop being silly" and to not get involved in anything political for the next four years. The only extra-curricular activities they want me involved in at the University of Oregon are sports, and that's it.
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Re: Public Employee Unions Must Be Crushed !
Have you explained to them that parroting Faux is not "getting involved in politics"?
That might work.
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Re: Public Employee Unions Must Be Crushed !
Quote:
Originally Posted by
999969999
Quote:
Originally Posted by
clocker
Someday 9, what you "think" and reality will intersect and boy, will you be embarrassed by these posts.
You sound like my grandparents. They told me that since they are
paying for my entire college education, including room and board, and transportation,
It seems you think bragging about your freeloading life is going to impress someone.
I know I've said it before, but how about you put your money where your mouth (ideology) is and pay for your own education?
I can't speak for Clocker's exact point, but for myself I feel most of what you "think" shows a lack of basic historic knowledge of the subjects on which you opine.
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Re: Public Employee Unions Must Be Crushed !
The liberal movement and it's unions are living in the pre-climate-change past.
Time to ante-up, ya'all; time to contribute for all the entitlements you wanted, so long as you didn't have to pay for them.
Also, we need some cash for defense.
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Re: Public Employee Unions Must Be Crushed !
Quote:
Originally Posted by
j2k4
The liberal movement and it's unions are living in the pre-climate-change past.
Time to ante-up, ya'all; time to contribute for all the entitlements you wanted, so long as you didn't have to pay for them.
Also, we need some cash for defense.
Why, is de fence falling down?
You should have prepared for the democrats being elected and and made sure you qualified for all the 'freebies'.
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Re: Public Employee Unions Must Be Crushed !
The union "entitlements" (a totally fallacious term, BTW) are/were fully funded...they had absolutely nothing to do with Wisconsin's budget crisis.
If you're looking for who is exploiting "entitlements", look no further than the corporations who operate in the state, 60% of whom pay no taxes at all.
All the whining from the right about unions is nothing more than an attempt to destroy the Democratic money base (unions being a large contributor to Democratic candidates) and pave the way for the right to simply take over.
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Re: Public Employee Unions Must Be Crushed !
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bigboab
Quote:
Originally Posted by
j2k4
The liberal movement and it's unions are living in the pre-climate-change past.
Time to ante-up, ya'all; time to contribute for all the entitlements you wanted, so long as you didn't have to pay for them.
Also, we need some cash for defense.
Why, is de fence falling down?
You should have prepared for the democrats being elected and and made sure you qualified for all the 'freebies'.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
clocker
The union "entitlements" (a totally fallacious term, BTW) are/were fully funded...they had absolutely nothing to do with Wisconsin's budget crisis.
If you're looking for who is exploiting "entitlements", look no further than the corporations who operate in the state, 60% of whom pay no taxes at all.
All the whining from the right about unions is nothing more than an attempt to destroy the Democratic money base (unions being a large contributor to Democratic candidates) and pave the way for the right to simply take over.
Your postage is obsolete.
Dems are still in charge, but their mis-behaviors have done them in.
Color us 'post-Alinsky'.
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Re: Public Employee Unions Must Be Crushed !
After all this time you came back to be obtuse?
Can you tell me exactly how the public employee union was hurting Wisconsin?
Can you explain why, after the unions already agreed to Walker's financial demands, that he still insists on gutting them?
I'm betting Walker gets recalled after the one year grace period is over.
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Re: Public Employee Unions Must Be Crushed !
Quote:
Originally Posted by
clocker
After all this time you came back to be obtuse?
Can you tell me exactly how the public employee union was hurting Wisconsin?
Can you explain why, after the unions already agreed to Walker's financial demands, that he still insists on gutting them?
I'm betting Walker gets recalled after the one year grace period is over.
Don't mean to be obtuse, but then, I suppose neither did you, a while back.
What's this about a "grace period".
You can ask all the questions you want; after all, you have the Senate and the executive.
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Re: Public Employee Unions Must Be Crushed !
Quote:
Originally Posted by
j2k4
Quote:
Originally Posted by
clocker
I'm betting Walker gets recalled after the one year grace period is over.
What's this about a "grace period".
Wisconsin law doesn't allow for a recall vote till the officer has been in office for a year.
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Re: Public Employee Unions Must Be Crushed !
This video does a nice job of presenting the conservative argument against public employee unions...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=je3UT...layer_embedded
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Re: Public Employee Unions Must Be Crushed !
For liberals, freedom of speech and freedom of the press only apply to the liberal media. They don't want any other views expressed. They really should stop using the "liberal" name, because they are anything but open-minded...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JSZ5...layer_embedded
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Re: Public Employee Unions Must Be Crushed !
Quote:
Originally Posted by
999969999
For liberals, freedom of speech and freedom of the press only apply to the liberal media. They don't want any other views expressed. They really should stop using the "liberal" name, because they are anything but open-minded...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JSZ5...layer_embedded
So private citizens yelling "tell the truth" is preventing first amendment rights? (do you even know what the 1st. amendment does?)
Do you want to be told the truth or do you want to be told a viewpoint?
Does the first amendment mean everyone has to shut up so your viewpoint can be told?
Should Sarah Palin be allowed to bar the press from her events? After all it is as you say a "free press"
As for the content of the clip. Has this "doctor" been found, was it a real doctor? was it actually a union supporter or was it one of Mark Williams "plants"?
You see reporters, REAL reporters, look for facts and report facts, not viewpoints.
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Re: Public Employee Unions Must Be Crushed !
Quote:
Originally Posted by
devilsadvocate
You see reporters, REAL reporters, look for facts and report facts, not viewpoints.
Which "real reporters" do you favor?
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Re: Public Employee Unions Must Be Crushed !
Quote:
Originally Posted by
999969999
For liberals, freedom of speech and freedom of the press only apply to the liberal media. They don't want any other views expressed. They really should stop using the "liberal" name, because they are anything but open-minded...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JSZ5...layer_embedded
Did you think it's unique? Do you have a problem with these guys?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1Ntu7Aapys
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Re: Public Employee Unions Must Be Crushed !
Quote:
Originally Posted by j2k4;3563457
Which "real reporters" do [I
you[/I] favor?
ANY reporter that sticks to facts and not opinion or speculation. Which do you favor?
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Re: Public Employee Unions Must Be Crushed !
The person (with the numbers) obviously listens to some preferred opinions and takes them as fact, there's obviously no room for intelligent conversation here. Those kinds of people find real information confusing, and have a hard time differentiating between a reporter and a commentator, commentary being the useless trash that everyone gets excited over.
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Re: Public Employee Unions Must Be Crushed !
9 simply lacks the experience to view issues through different frameworks.
For instance:
-The right would prefer that a Wisconsin worker look at his union peers and say, "Heath insurance? Benefits and pension? I don't have that, why should they?"
-The left would have them ask, "Heath insurance? Benefits and pension? I want that too, how can I get them?"
The right's obsession with deficits (which is a problem they created...the national debt grew greatest under Republican rule) is presented as a totally black>white, cut-n-dried proposition...we spend more than we take in, therefore we can only respond by cutting services to save money.
Somehow the obvious second option- we spend more than we take in, so let's take in more- is never proposed.
For all the Chicken Little histrionics over taxes, the fact is that we are paying the lowest effective tax rate since the 1950's.
The problem is that the taxes we pay don't result in tangible benefits for the average American (and that Republicans don't believe that corporations should pay taxes at all).
We used to get nice things like the Interstate Highway System and Hoover Dam and libraries and water treatment plants...stuff you could see and that enhanced the quality of your life.
Republicans prefer to spend taxes on projecting our military into the world.
Remove Iraq and Afghanistan from our spending and the "deficit problem" disappears.
Another Republican tactic relies on insulating their core supporters from the effects of their stated beliefs.
Note that every Republican warns of the horrible drain on the budget by "entitlements"- Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid- and how we must "tighten our belts" and "make sacrifices".
Yeah, everybody has to chip in...except those already receiving the largess, mostly older, white folks, the very core of the Republican base.
They get to keep theirs, which makes it a lot easier to say "fuck you" to everyone else.
Be interesting to confront the typical Tea Party rabble and say, "Yup, SS, Medicare and Medicaid are killing us financially so we're all going to lose 15% of our benefits immediately, we're going to restrict access to health providers and we're going to phase the whole system down.
Starting NOW.
For EVERYBODY".
<crickets>
As the truism says, "Republicans believe that government is bad and they get elected so they can prove it".
