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Given the overall trend on this board toward atheism/agnosticism, I was wondering, relative to the death-penalty thread elsewhere here, how the anti-religious nay-sayers would define or quantify the U.S.'s lack of "enlightenment" on the specific point of the death-penalty?
How would it compare to the practice in other countries?
Is this "enlightenment" something we should be possessed of, but are not?
If we should be, why?
Could we have that in dumb-ass English please? :blink:
:)
I think the trend towards atheism/agnosticism on this board is more reflective of the relative age of the posters than any society in general. As people age, they tend to become more spiritual, and for the most part, the posters here are fairly young.
Of course, that's not really related to your question(s) at all. ;)
:ninja:
Not being a "anti-religious naysayer" ( isn't that a double negative, btw?), but fully qualified in the unenlightened area, may I chime in?Quote:
Originally posted by j2k4@2 January 2004 - 23:19
Given the overall trend on this board toward atheism/agnosticism, I was wondering, relative to the death-penalty thread elsewhere here, how the anti-religious nay-sayers would define or quantify the U.S.'s lack of "enlightenment" on the specific point of the death-penalty?
Even European states are not religiously based (witness France of late) so why is religion germane to the discussion at all?
i think it's because posters have been using religion to explian their views.
i fully agree with you,why should religion enter the forum? after all it's supposed to be an area of self expression, and not a place to quote the bible.
the comment about the young not having religion is probably more indicative of the fact that parents my age are not forcing it upon them. As i fast approach my 40s i can honestly say that my years of "enlightenment" have led me to doubt there is a god, I certainly thought there was one when i was young. If my children ask me if there is a god i won't say no, i will tell them there is if you believe there is...just because i don't think there is doesn't mean that i am right.
i believe faith is a good thing to have but "religion" can be misused.
as to the question, reading the posts about the death penalty i don't think that anyone suggested that the USA wasn't "enlightened" just that in europe the lack of the death sentence for a whole generation breeds a society that couldn't imagine such a harsh solution, therefore to them it seem barbaric.
just a question..are you saying that the USA isn't religiously based ? because i live here and i can tell you that it's standing room only every sunday in church and i think you will find that an agnostic would stand very little hope of becoming president.Quote:
Originally posted by clocker@3 January 2004 - 07:35
Even European states are not religiously based (witness France of late) so why is religion germane to the discussion at all?
i can't count the amount of times i have heard people greeting each other with the phrase "praise the lord"
vidcc,
What I meant was that our legal system is not based on religion, as opposed to Islamic states, where it may be.
I think that you'll find that church attendence has been steadily falling for years ( at least in the States) and any proclamation of religious adherence ( at least by politicians) is merely shorthand for "I am a good guy and we share the same values ( just don't try to hold me to them any more than you do for yourself,nudge,nudge, wink,wink...).
thanks for clearing that up for me...gosh how full did the churches used to be then? :lol: because i have never seen an English church that full unless the TV cameras where there for the sunday worship programs.
trust me i know that polititions use religion as you say, but i was saying that i couldn't see a presidential candidate getting very far if he admitted being agnostic.
maybe my view as to the popularity of religion in the states is because i live in New Mexico, perhaps it's not so forthright in other states
I think to some extent you are right, MN, but as well as I can spot the "elder" members, I think the trend holds.Quote:
Originally posted by MagicNakor@3 January 2004 - 03:28
I think the trend towards atheism/agnosticism on this board is more reflective of the relative age of the posters than any society in general. As people age, they tend to become more spiritual, and for the most part, the posters here are fairly young.
Of course, that's not really related to your question(s) at all. ;)
:ninja:
Clocker-
Not being a "anti-religious naysayer" ( isn't that a double negative, btw?),
Not a double negative:
Anti-religious people who are also nay-sayers relative to the efficacy of the death-penalty.
As opposed to, perhaps, the more "fire and brimstone" types?
In any case, sorry for the lack of clarity. ;)
vidcc-
why should religion enter the forum? after all it's supposed to be an area of self expression, and not a place to quote the bible.
Are we now to practice "separation of church and forum"?
I don't recall anyone quoting the bible; how is it that proper self-expression precludes drawing from one's religious background?
I have never greeted anyone by saying, "Praise the Lord!"-not to denigrate those who do, but I was taught not to lead an introduction with a reference to religion, politics or the size of one's pay packet.
As for the born-again, I apologize for getting it right the first time around; perhaps that is why I don't take it upon myself to remind others constantly of my faith. I desist from such practices because it is just that: MY faith.
In any case, why the objection?
Also:
i believe faith is a good thing to have but "religion" can be misused.
Just so-
As can lack of faith, agnosticism, atheism or anything else.
If you believe in it fervently, whatever it might be, it can be fashioned into a bludgeon to oppress.
Remember Stalin?
Lenin?
The thread to which I was referring had several references to the "barbaric" or "unenlightened" U.S. justice system.
I am seeking someone to justify/vindicate this viewpoint.
Billy-
I can't get no stupider.
Sorry. :)
people have been quoting the bible on this forum and i was in no way suggesting (although i can see how it could be misinterpretated) that one beliefs religious or otherwise should be excluded in discussion. what i was trying to say was that we are supposed to be putting our point of view and not just quote passages from the bible, for example if the discussion was about homosexul marriages instead of saying "i don't agree with them" one might get a quote "the bible say adam and eve not adam and steve" i do appologise for any offence but none was intended. it's hard to put in type without misunderstanding occuring.
i didn't suggest that you greet anyone with "praise the lord"...it was something that i mentioned to justify my statement that the USA has a strong religious foundation...i do hear it but i live in an area where there are more churches than fast food outlets.
i agree about lack of faith being dangerous as well, but lets face it some people are just bad if they believe in god or not, remember the crusades.. doing gods work ?
as to the "barbaric" or "unenlightened" U.S. justice system. i think it isn't the system to which they object rather the punishment that could result. E.G. the death penalty and the outside world only really hears about that. As i previously said there is a whole generation that has been raised without the death penalty, certainly in Europe and because of this it seems barbaric..it's not even the method used to carry out the sentence it's just that it's viewed as legalised murder. Even i as a believer in the death sentence for extreme cases think that some of the methods used worldwide are barbaric, but to many people the method is irrelivent to the objection.
The USA is an easy target when it comes to criticism, sometimes it's deserved sometimes it's not. The USA is often seen as the school bully on a grander scale and the fact that it has recently instigated a somewhat unpopular invasion has led it of late to a greater deal of criticism on just about everything. Apart from that the USA has alway been vocal in it's attitude that "we are the greatest nation on earth". Hollywood always has the USA saving the world, historical facts be dammed, so of course we are inviting sarcasm. plus this is mostly a western european / usa forum..not forgetting the aussie/canadians etc. so people are going to pick on the usa as they are more likely to get a response
Blatant bigoted post removed...
one thing i have just thought about regarding hollywood and the outside worlds view of the us justice system and their belief that it is unenlightened.
many films are made depicting the racism of the south and secregation back in the day. in these films justice was portrayed as something only a white person could get. if a black person was killed no guilty party would be found yet if a white person was killed the first blackman they see is arrested and found guilty....it's a very hard thing to shake off no matter how different things really are...just as many americans think london has cobbled streets and is full of chimney sweeps.
you know i hate to agree with anything about this statement but i am tending to lean towards the idea of making paedophillia a capitol offence.Quote:
Originally posted by RAM%ROD@3 January 2004 - 23:35
Blatant biggotry removed by RF
That said what the F*** has the catholic church (of which i am not a member) got to do with it. catholics are not peadophiles plain and simple, the fact that some peadophiles happen to be catholic is just unfortunate.
i am fully aware of the scandal that has been going on recently with the priesthood, but to suggest that all catholics approve of this is both narrow minded and unworthy of even your controversial post
you know i hate to agree with anything about this statement but i am tending to lean towards the idea of making paedophillia a capitol offence.Quote:
Originally posted by vidcc+3 January 2004 - 23:59--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (vidcc @ 3 January 2004 - 23:59)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-RAM%ROD@3 January 2004 - 23:35
Blatant biggotry removed by RF
That said what the F*** has the catholic church (of which i am not a member) got to do with it. catholics are not peadophiles plain and simple, the fact that some peadophiles happen to be catholic is just unfortunate.
i am fully aware of the scandal that has been going on recently with the priesthood, but to suggest that all catholics approve of this is both narrow minded and unworthy of even your controversial post [/b][/quote]
Two Thirds of Bishops protected pedophile priests.
<http://www.dallasnews.com/cgi-bin/2002/priests.cgi>
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2002/0...nley-arrest.htm
http://www.yourlawyer.com/practice/news.ht...=Clergy%20Abuse
http://www.inoohr.org/morepedophilepriests.htm
'Friend and confidant' abused boys for 20 years
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/storydisplay.cfm...section=general
Roman Catholic priest pleads innocent while facing 42 counts of abuse & 59 lawsuits
<http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20020628/ap_on_re_us/church_abuse_10>
<http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20020628/ap_on_re_us/church_abuse_10>
_
A priest accused of sexual misconduct involving teen-age girls has been removed from his parish in suburban Detroit, officials said. The Rev. Robert Wyzgoski, pastor of Our Lady Queen of Martyrs in Beverly Hills, was fired this week because of recently discovered allegations about sexual misconduct in the 1960s.
Two priests suspended in Indianapolis
<http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/krindianapolis/20020628/lo/church_investigating_indiana_priests_1.html>
The Rev. Jack Okon, 58, has been accused of fondling a teen-age boy nearly 30 years ago. The archdiocese has placed Okon on administrative leave. Last week, Cathedral High School officials suspended him from his maintenance job and banned him from the campus of the Northside school.
Priest in Florida charged with assault of nine year old boy
<http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/krtampa/20020627/lo/sex_charges_mount_against_ex-pinellas_priest_1.html>
Nevada priest waves preliminary hearing
<http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20020626/ap_on_re_us/church_abuse_1>
HENDERSON, Nev. (AP) - A Catholic priest accused of fondling and photographing teen-age boys in his parish waived his right to a preliminary hearing Tuesday, prompting a judge to move the case to state court for trial.
Two priests in San Jose 'suspended'
<http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/kpix/20020622/lo/3673_1.html>
Saturday June 22, KCBS/AP
Detroit removes two more priests
<http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/krdetroit/20020622/lo/maida_dismisses_2_priests_1.html>
Detroit Free Press
June 22, 2002
Priest arrested for molesting 12 year old during Father's Day trip
<http://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/26/nyregion/26CND-ABUSE.html>
New York Times
June 26, 2002
<http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/newsday/20020627/lo/visiting_priest_faces_charges_1.html>
The Rev. Peter Kiarie, 41, was ordered held on $50,000 bail after his arraignment in Queens Criminal Court in Kew Gardens on five counts of sexual abuse, five counts of forcible touching and one count of endangering the welfare of a child.
38 more abuse cases revealed in New Zealand
<http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20020622/ap_wo_en_po/new_zealand_catholic_church_2>
New York paid 1 million dollars to keep an abuse case case secret
<http://www.reuters.com/news_article.jhtml;jsessionid=WQKKAHIUQ5IEWCRBAE0CFEYKEEATGIWD?type=topnews&StoryID=1142059>
June 27 Reuters
Pedophile Catholic parishioner arrested in Atlanta
<http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/metro/0602/27molest.html>
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Priest wants more time
<http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/3541349.htm>
Mercury News
June 25, 2002
FREMONT, Calif. (AP) - Robert Freitas, a former priest who has pleaded innocent to charges he molested a teen-ager, appeared in Alameda County Court but his preliminary evidence hearing did not take place as scheduled.
as i saidQuote:
Originally posted by RAM%ROD@4 January 2004 - 00:21
i am fully aware of the scandal that has been going on recently with the priesthood, but to suggest that all catholics approve of this is both narrow minded and unworthy of even your controversial post
Having grown tired of this sort of thing, I have simply reported it. I trust the mods / admin will take appropriate action on an unprovoked sectarian attack.
It is either the normal anti-Catholic troll or simply a new one. The styles are very similar. I really don't care either way.
It does no-one any good and destroys any chance of a sensible and worthwhile discussion on the point in hand. They may find it amusing, I simply find it tiresome.
I expect the normal provocation to commence.
Edit : Thank You RF. I appreciate that.
I would really appreciate any expressions of a religious nature be given the respect they deserve, or merely ignored.
I don't think World News is hosting any pedophiles, but several of us occasionally backstop a point with a religious reference, or a reference to religion.
This cannot be avoided, nor should it be met with ridicule, contempt, or attempts at intimidation.
There's supposed to be room for all points of view; at least, that is what we hear from the secular crowd. ;)