Usa And It's Influence.

I really get so sick of USA bashing when it all comes down to impotent nations pretending that they are somehow different, when, in fact, they would be no different from the USA if they had the ability.

When an uncontested super power appears upon the Earth you will know it by this sign, the impotent will join in a confederacy against it.

Really, it is simple human psychology. All men/nations want autonomy over their lives, their destiny. When this is removed, it causes unrest, anger, and resentment.

Like all the low level workers who gather in the break room talking about how stupid their boss is, slapping each other on the back and laughing. They discredit any achievements of the boss as a ruse to mask their impotence. They demean the boss and his integrity. They wouldn't be caught dead being such an ass kissing low life as their boss who was obviously pandered to all his live.

The Boss acts without caring about others. Yeah, like any country, ever, has passed up something to strengthen itself because it wouldn't be "nice". Humans are humans.

So all I see is anger and specious moral high ground acting as a facade to mask fear and impotence.

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Originally posted by hobbes
I really get so sick of USA bashing when it all comes down to impotent nations pretending that they are somehow different, when, in fact, they would be no different from the USA if they had the ability

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Lets say another hypothetical superpower was overthrowing governments and supporting coups etc etc.

Would you defend their right to do so? US citizens dont have to support these actions but many do. Either that or they cast them aside as irrelevancies that have no bearing on the current global situation. I've always held the belief that if you want to fix a problem you have to understand what caused it in the first place. In my experience most Americans are not prepared to do this when it comes to their Governments foreign policy.

I think you'll find its often frustration at this attitude that drives, what you perceive, as USA bashing. I think the rest of us just cant understand why your governments wrongdoings are such a sore point with many of you. We'll happily criticise our own Governments all day long should the need arise, and if jonny foreigner wants to join in with fair criticism we dont seem to take it to heart as severely as many Americans do. :)

I could bring up loads of other issues relating to this subject but its getting late, and I can see it getting extremely hot in here within 10 minutes so I think I'll make a quick exit :)

I don't even support our right to do so, just talking about a political reality which would be done by any country which could.

I want to dissect out what is unique to American policies over those of the rest of the world.

My conclusion: nothing but the ability to achieve them.

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Originally posted by hobbes+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (hobbes)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I want to dissect out what is unique to American policies over those of the rest of the world.

My conclusion: nothing but the ability to achieve them[/b]

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And if another country had the ability to achieve them we would be criticising them too. I dont see whats so unfair about it to be honest.

If it were my country instead of yours I wouldnt be at all bothered by the criticism, I&#39;d probably feel more comfortable joining in too because then I couldnt be accused of being anti-myowncountry :)

edit:

<!--QuoteBegin-hobbes
I don&#39;t even support our right to do so[/quote]

But many of your fellow countrymen do. I genuinely dont think you&#39;d get this with other countries. We dont seem to take criticism of our Gvts as personally as many American citizens do.

ok , but if you look at what you said (is there an echo in here) you just insulted every other country apart from the usa..impotant...which is just the kind of attitude that makes everyone bash the usa at any given chance.we need the rest of the world and just because we have more WMD than anyone else doesn&#39;t make us better.
we constantly tell the world we are better than them and that we have power, well with power comes responsibility and if we are perceived as abusing that power then we will draw criticism. Unfortunately some of the criticism comes in the form badly thought out personal attacks. Many people lump all americans into one heap in their attacks just as many americans lump all the middle eastern peoples as being bad
i&#39;m kind of glad that the rest of the world is vocal because it acts like a conscience so we don&#39;t get too above ourselves and start thinking we are God.
i fully understand how you feel, this board is mostly western Europeans where americans although considered allies are also perceived as being arrogant bullies.
in most cases the attacks aren&#39;t anything personally directed at you even though it seems like it is. That said some of the Americans on the board haven&#39;t helped our cause and it all ends up with a shooting match off topic...pity really because some of the topics are worthy of proper debate.
no doubt this one will draw a lot of insults...you used one of my post as an example but i think this one will outdo mine but a long way lol

I only take offense when people pretend that what is going on is uniquely American, the specious moral high ground.

You know that I am pretty open in my expression of my opinions as my posts on invading Iraq demonstrate.

Criticism about cruel and unique actions are well appreciated, criticism based on jealously and impotence are pathetic.

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Originally posted by hobbes
Criticism about cruel and unique actions are well appreciated, criticism based on jealously and impotence are pathetic.

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Speaking from experience a sizeable proportion of your fellow Americans are simply unable or unwilling to make that distinction.

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Originally posted by leftism+11 January 2004 - 06:39--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (leftism &#064; 11 January 2004 - 06:39)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-hobbes
Criticism about cruel and unique actions are well appreciated, criticism based on jealously and impotence are pathetic.

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Speaking from experience a sizeable proportion of your fellow Americans are simply unable or unwilling to make that distinction.[/b][/quote]
As are most citizens of any country. Again I go back to what is unique about Americans.

But, more seriously. I can fully appreciate how morons can irritate the world with their idiotic gung - ho mentality.

As an individual, I don&#39;t know how to stop this barrage of idiocy, but I hate being placed in the same category as these dolts.

People are people, and unfortunately, all countries have their share of inflammatory idiots.

Hobbes

but without being in the mind of the poster can you say how the reason for the critcism is motivated ?
again i do get entirely your point...many people don&#39;t give justification for the critic but instead just throw insults.
i have heard the arguement that the usa is attacked out of jealousy many times..trust me we are not looked upon with envy as we might think we are and many times, to use your analogy, it&#39;s not that we are resented because we are the boss but because we think we are and people are rightly telling us we are not. the world is much more powerful than the usa on its own.
and as for impotence...well didn&#39;t GW just take us to war to stop a country doing just what the usa wants to do...have power?...so with our guns and ammunition we are just as guilty of bashing oursleves.

gosh you started a good topic here..i doubt it will be able to maintain intelligent debate but it cetainly deserves it from whatever side of the fence one sits

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Originally posted by hobbes
As are most citizens of any country. Again I go back to what is unique about Americans.

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I think this is where we disagree. I dont know why this is the case but you really do seem to be unique in as much that you guys seem to take huge offence at any criticism of your Gvt. I mean fair criticism here too.

Sometimes it seems like the Gvt and the people are synonomous in the USA.

Im not talking about the gung-ho types you mentioned either. I mean decent normal people who seeem to have an uncharacteristically violent reaction to any criticism of US foreign policy.

To us, on the other side of the pond, this just seems really bizarre. We genuinely dont understand it :)

As an example I think its a commonly held view in Europe that the foreign policy of the US has been a major contributing factor to 9/11. Of course we dont think your citizens deserved that but we dont see why its offensive to link your Gvts actions to it.

I have in the past tried to explain this to various Americans but you just cant seem to seperate the citizens from the government and, inevitably, huge offence is taken.

I hope I&#39;ve explained that reasonably coherently but you have to understand I&#39;m really tired.

PS

Was there any need for you to start a really interesting thread in the early hours of the morning? :)

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Originally posted by leftism@11 January 2004 - 06:03

Was there any need for you to start a really interesting thread in the early hours of the morning? :)

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erm it&#39;s evening here... :lol: :lol: don&#39;t make us have to explain the rotation of the earth and time differences..you must realise we are in America and therefore behind you (did i say the usa was behind the times and living in the past ??? :unsure: :"> ) :lol: :lol:

Have I shown huge offense, I just called "bullshit"

People criticise my government for things their government would do, if they could.

hey hobbes are you trying to see what the board would look like with your name on the end of each topic :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Originally posted by hobbes+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (hobbes)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Have I shown huge offense, I just called "bullshit"
[/b]

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Bullshit? So does that mean you dont think US foriegn policy has anything to do with 9/11?

<!--QuoteBegin-hobbes
People criticise my government for things their government would do, if they could. [/quote]

So what? They would criticise their own government too if they did the same stuff. Theres nothing hypocritical or inconsistent about it.

Its almost as if your saying that because our Gvts would probably be just as bad if they had the power, we shouldnt criticise yours.

I dont see the logic behind that, the citizens arent the government.

The attacks I have seen have been personal. "Stupid Americans" heads the list. The problem I have is that you are directing these statement at all of us, when, in fact, the contingent that supports this is very small.

This thread has nothing to do with 9/11, nobody with a brain would argue that our foreign policies would not create enemies.

I am commenting on the fact that the people who tend to blast the US are more interested in their impotence than a unique agenda or quality of American politics.

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Originally posted by hobbes+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (hobbes)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>This thread has nothing to do with 9/11, nobody with a brain would argue that our foreign policies would not create enemies[/b]

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9/11 was an example I used to illustrate a point about what happens when you discuss such matters with some Americans. You didnt clarify what your "bullshit" comment was aimed at so I had to ask. What was it aimed at btw?

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Originally posted by hobbes@
I am commenting on the fact that the people who tend to blast the US are more interested in their impotence than a unique agenda or quality of American politics.

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I disagree, I think that many people who criticise you actually care about what goes on in the world. Its easy to focus on the fools in the same way that I could easily focus on the gung-ho Americans who like to watch videos of Iraqis beinng killed. But that doesnt show the situation in a balanced light and would be quite unfair.

I&#39;ve noticed you&#39;ve used the word impotent many times in this thread. I honestly think your more concerned with your Gvts power than those who criticise you are.

Its not the major motivation behind the criticism, its what your Gvt does with the power which motivates it.

<!--QuoteBegin-hobbes
The attacks I have seen have been personal. "Stupid Americans" heads the list. The problem I have is that you are directing these statement at all of us, when, in fact, the contingent that supports this is very small. [/quote]

If the whole purpose of this thread is to focus purely on the obnoxious 13 year olds you get on all forums I&#39;m a little disappointed. We dont have a monoploy on them any more than you do :)

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Originally posted by leftism@11 January 2004 - 08:07

I disagree, I think that many people who criticise you actually care about what goes on in the world.

Good point, but I rarely take offense when such criticism is conveyed in a contructive manner.&nbsp; These critical posts are often embedded with cheap shots and written in an inflammatory manner.&nbsp; Sometimes how you say something is as important as what you say. When I read a post by Biggles, I can tell he is honesty interested in an exchange of ideas, not in a flame war.


I&#39;ve noticed you&#39;ve used the word impotent many times in this thread. I honestly think your more concerned with your Gvts power than those who criticise you are.

No


Its not the major motivation behind the criticism, its what your Gvt does with the power which motivates it.

Well, we can&#39;t please everyone.&nbsp; Your government would probably do something similar to ours if it could and the matching need was there.&nbsp; But I can appreciate your point to some degree, with this WMD fiasco in Iraq being one example and, as I stated in another thread, why we are still dependent on oil, at all, being another.

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You said alot alot of correct things in your first post
and yes i would like to thank the US for all the great things it has done and will do in the future.......

Its just a little bit difficult to ignore the USA when its
contstantly on TV, radio, newspapers, and for dinner.

And so since this is an international (western) forum - guess what we all have in common?

i think its scarey that american ideals are based on teh land of hope and glory and that the root of american society is money. i think american setlers treatment of native americans was appauling. i think that alot of the worlds ill come from the idea that money is priority and that capatalism is a effective and unbias means of world organisation. i think that america is rightfully blamed for alot of things because with the influence they hold and teh money thier economy can flash the have a a great deal of power of poorer countries.

however i dont think only america is to blame i think that most of europe has a very big part in the worlds problems, colonialisation has caused nmany problems in the world today. i think that world religion has caused the greatest number of problems in the world.

but in reality it is not the religion or the counrty or the governing body that is to blame it is the people who misuses thier power for their own selfish purposes.

another nationlism debat eh?

i gotta give these dudes some credits eh? spending all day discussing important issues around them.

me? i do nothing all day but studying medicine, so one day i could use the skillz i&#39;ve acquired to help ppl, not kill them.

;)

aha but what type of medicine..... im sure we can devise soem arguement surrounding its effectiveness

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Originally posted by james_bond_rulez@11 January 2004 - 20:02
another nationlism debat eh?

i gotta give these dudes some credits eh? spending all day discussing important issues around them.

me? i do nothing all day but studying medicine, so one day i could use the skillz i&#39;ve acquired to help ppl, not kill them.

;)

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and may your first malpractice lawsuit be a happy one :lol: :lol:

very funny <_<

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Originally posted by james_bond_rulez@11 January 2004 - 21:02
another nationlism debat eh?



;)

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Not meant as a nationalistic thread, actually more about human psychology.

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Originally posted by hobbes
Well, we can&#39;t please everyone.&nbsp; Your government would probably do something similar to ours if it could and the matching need was there.

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You seem very insistent on this point hobbes but I really dont think it&#39;s significant. If you think the people who criticise the US would support their own government if it were doing the same things then thats a different matter altogether.

But simply pointing out that most governments are as bad as each other has no bearing on the opinions of the citizens nor does it weaken their position when it comes to criticising US foreign policy.

Its not about pleasing people either, its about fundamental things such as the overthrowing of democratic governments and the consequent destabilisation of the affected countries.

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Originally posted by leftism+11 January 2004 - 22:04--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (leftism &#064; 11 January 2004 - 22:04)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-hobbes
Well, we can&#39;t please everyone. Your government would probably do something similar to ours if it could and the matching need was there.

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You seem very insistent on this point hobbes but I really dont think it&#39;s significant. If you think the people who criticise the US would support their own government if it were doing the same things then thats a different matter altogether.



[/b][/quote]
Let us say that Australia was not self sufficient in oil, but was militarily very strong.

Would your elected officials tell you that you are just going to have to give up living as you are accustomed and learn to deal with thread bare provisions, or would they endeavor to secure a needed resource so that citizens could continue to live as they always have.

I suggest the latter.

Just remember, any military action would be done under the guise of national security, not for oil.

Most citizens of democratic nations feel that their government is looking to secure their future. Most of what it does is unknown to them. In regard to your statement, I say "absolutely" and they would be here, like me, fending off cheap shots at their country. Notice how 4th generation noob has dug up an old hypoluxa (Things I hate about Bush) thread just for this reason. A perfect example of my point about human psychology.

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Originally posted by hobbes@11 January 2004 - 06:53
The attacks I have seen have been personal. "Stupid Americans" heads the list. The problem I have is that you are directing these statement at all of us, when, in fact, the contingent that supports this is very small.

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by making remarks like this hobbes you then redirect all youre angst against everyone there by creating teh same generalisations that you are trying to escape from

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Originally posted by Wizard_Mon1+11 January 2004 - 23:14--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Wizard_Mon1 @ 11 January 2004 - 23:14)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-hobbes@11 January 2004 - 06:53
The attacks I have seen have been personal.&nbsp; "Stupid Americans" heads the list.&nbsp; The problem I have is that you are directing these statement at all of us, when, in fact, the contingent that supports this is very small.

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by making remarks like this hobbes you then redirect all youre angst against everyone there by creating teh same generalisations that you are trying to escape from [/b][/quote]
What are you even talking about?

I have directed no anger toward anyone.

I am attempting to discern what is legit criticism and what is a motivated for other reasons.

well exuse me then i detected a hint of anger in your posts (easy mistake to make while comunicating via posts).

especially with your angry avatar

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Originally posted by Wizard_Mon1@11 January 2004 - 23:23
well exuse me then i detected a hint of anger in your posts (easy mistake to make while comunicating via posts).

especially with your angry avatar

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Oh, my avatar is not angry, but rather quite mad, quite mad, indeed.

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Originally posted by hobbes@11 January 2004 - 22:19
I am attempting to discern what is legit criticism and what is a motivated for other reasons.

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just to inform you that once youve discerned what is legit and what is not you might have also been bias in coming to those decisions, as everyone has there own view and that shapes how the percieve the world.

in other words your truth might be another mans lie

and yes i can believe that your quite mad :lol: :lol: ;)

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Originally posted by Wizard_Mon1+11 January 2004 - 23:28--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Wizard_Mon1 &#064; 11 January 2004 - 23:28)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-hobbes@11 January 2004 - 22:19
I am attempting to discern what is legit criticism and what is a motivated for other reasons.

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just to inform you that once youve discerned what is legit and what is not you might have also been bias in coming to those decisions, as everyone has there own view and that shapes how the percieve the world.

in other words your truth might be another mans lie

and yes i can believe that your quite mad :lol: :lol: ;)[/b][/quote]
Any person who cannot recognize his own biases and admit to them is a fool. I never subscribe to an agenda and force the facts to support them.

I have been critical of my government, not a blind supporter. I can see clearly, and if I think I might have a bias people need to know about, I give that information.

furry muff

but there might also be hidden biases in your subconcious that cause you to react to certain things in certain ways

but i guess they only matter if you want to truely know youre self blah blah blah i think im going off topic

yoga is the answer :helpsmile:

the question is how do rich people pay to look silly

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Originally posted by Wizard_Mon1@12 January 2004 - 01:10
the question is how do rich people pay to look silly

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with their American Express platinum cards of course

of course darling any thing else would be primative

The US has no influence where I live..(New Zealand)
hell, we are a nuclear free country and the US isnt even allowed to bring there nuclear powered warships into new zealand waters..
(Chants loudly) No Nukes&#33; No Nukes&#33; No Nukes

wow the US has nuff nukes to blow the shit out of the world who knows X times over

no wonder they have so much "influence" :lol:

time to disarm those nukes and learn how to live in peace with the rest of the world <_<

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Originally posted by hobbes@11 January 2004 - 14:35
I never subscribe to an agenda and force the facts to support them.

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so, in essence, you&#39;re superhuman?

you should hear how that sounds to another person, when you say something like "i never lie, i never twist the facts to suit my views, i never make the mistake of presenting the subjective as objective..." etc, etc. in the Star Trek tv shows, people who make such claims are often referred to as Vulcans. strangely enough, the Vulcans&#39; claims that they are always like this and never like that come across as mere vanity, when always and never turn out to not quite be always and never.