martial arts in schools

As we ate our evening meal yesterday my 5 year old told me that she did Karate in school, which was a bit of a suprise to me as i have not seen any permission slips for such an activity.
I asked her what she did and she said "i had to kick the teacher in the belly."

I then asked her if they told her it was wrong to hit people (which i have tried to instill in my children) and her reply was " they said we musn't hit the other kids in school while the teacher is looking".

So today i took time off and visited the school to discuss the merits of such a program and my concerns.
I spoke to the instructors (professional instructors that run a school here) and the coach who admitted he should have checked with the parents before taking an after school activity into the daytime, but said that they tell the children that it is only for self defence against "bad people" and "bullies"

My concerns were that a 5 year old doesn't comprehend that they shouldn't go around kicking people after they have been told to kick the instructor....(evedently many kids were "kung foo fighting" on the school bus journey home)

I have to say i like the teaching of "not talking to strangers" in schools...it back me up on what i tell the kids but it made my blood boil the way that profesionals didn't think of the can of worms they could be opening and didn't bother checking with the parents first.

do i sound unreasonable?

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Originally Posted by vidcc

As we ate our evening meal yesterday my 5 year old told me that she did Karate in school, which was a bit of a suprise to me as i have not seen any permission slips for such an activity.
I asked her what she did and she said "i had to kick the teacher in the belly."

I then asked her if they told her it was wrong to hit people (which i have tried to instill in my children) and her reply was " they said we musn't hit the other kids in school while the teacher is looking".

So today i took time off and visited the school to discuss the merits of such a program and my concerns.
I spoke to the instructors (professional instructors that run a school here) and the coach who admitted he should have checked with the parents before taking an after school activity into the daytime, but said that they tell the children that it is only for self defence against "bad people" and "bullies"

My concerns were that a 5 year old doesn't comprehend that they shouldn't go around kicking people after they have been told to kick the instructor....(evedently many kids were "kung foo fighting" on the school bus journey home)

I have to say i like the teaching of "not talking to strangers" in schools...it back me up on what i tell the kids but it made my blood boil the way that profesionals didn't think of the can of worms they could be opening and didn't bother checking with the parents first.

do i sound unreasonable?

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I think it is totally reasonable to expect to be consulted, as well as give permission for your kid to participate in any extra-curricular activity, which this was. You are correct...a 5 yr. old does not have the capacity to understand any of this. I think it's great you went to the school to discuss this. I would have done the same thing. I wonder how many other parents are aware of what is going on.

i think teaching "kata" would actually be okay. kata is an extremely slowed-down, non-combative form of martial arts practice. it looks more like slow-motion dancing/aerobics than fighting. martial arts experts use kata as a way to meditate, practice their movements, as a stretching exercise, etc... but it's also something that regular people can do, even children and elderly folk.

teaching the kids how to fight, though? doesn't sound like a good idea to me. least not till they're old enough for the more "hardcore" sports like football and wrestling.

Karate is an example of self-defense, I don't get the excitement.

Before the age of 5, I watched the coyote attempt to drop cement blocks and such on the roadrunner and I, like most other boys and girls, could differentiate fantasy from reality.

In gym class, the teacher would spank the "birthday boy" with a padded cushion and the class would count out the hits. We then went on to play dodgeball.

My parents never signed a release that allowed me to throw balls at peoples' heads.

I can't recall any ill effect from this.

All it took was one Bruce Lee movie to have us all imitating him.

Bottom line: Kids who engage in physical activity in a structured gym class don't go around kicking people outside this context unless they have had no guidance on appropriate behavior at home or are "acting out" because they are distressed.

By the latter, I have a personal example. I was sent to a day care, at the age of 3, that was run by a crazy nun. she would make me sit in a corner all day for no reason. I started to spit in the car when my Mother picked me up. She recognized this bizarre behavior and soon found the source. Kids act out when words fail them. I didn't know that the lady was crazy, I just knew that she upset me.

We had that but in grade 7 and 8 at my school.

Then in grade 9 but i couldn't do it due to broken leg then some kid broke his leg to during that karate class so we became friends in gym sicne both of use had to sit out most of the year. :(

Hobbes
you say

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Karate is an example of self-defense, I don't get the excitement.

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to an adult that is clear (supposedly) but do you honestly think a 5 year old can be so clear on that point?
So you think it's ok for a child that has been told all it's life by its parents that it's wrong to hit people to suddenly be taught at school...a 5 year old...to kick someone in the belly? not just taught how but be told to actually kick someone in the belly.

It doesn't matter what has been instilled in them by their parents...children will be naughty....especially when they are in groups... i don't give a crap about your "well i watched it on tv"...this isn't tv...it's school....you cannot excuse one thing by saying "well something else happens"....if we did there would be no laws.
But as you say, well if a kid (a 5 year old) misbehaves, it because of lack of parental guidance...well what if my child does behave...but it's in a group with one that doesn't...one that likes to practice this new skill on the others?

you said you emulated bruce lee...so you must agree that kids will emulate what they are told at school...you made the point i am getting at


If i found any teacher paddled my girls behind as you said i would have that teachers ass out of a job faster than you can say "you dumb fuck"

This isn't a school activity...it wasn't approved by the parents.

I agree with Vid. I was constantly at the kids schools, making waves. As far as I was concerned, don't fuck with my kid. I would think the last thing the school would want to encourage is this activity....especially in children so young. there is enough aggression in our societies already, and I think it's important to teach our kids about non-violence. It isn't OK to hit or kick anyone.
And the paddling? I would also have had that teacher out in a second, and probbly would have sued the school.

Yeah, a 5 year old should be able to understand this. I said it the first time.

Why should you need a permission slip to learn to defend yourself and not to throw balls at someones head in dodgeball?

The "spanking" was fun. No one objected, no one grew up to be a sociopathic paddler.

As I clearly stated, cartoons that depict violence do NOT begat violence. Even 5 year olds understand the difference between cartoon violence and reality.

You two need to listen to "Mother" by Pink Floyd".

I really need to understand why the paddle offends you, my curiosity is peeked?

Well, dodgeball sure as shit wasn't fun for me. I was quite petie, and I got hurt. Kids target other kids they don't like, and try to hurt them. Surely you have witnessed that behavior in kids and adolescents. Bullying. Contact sports at that age aren't appropriate..and especially without a parent's permission.
Maybe the spanking was OK for you, but I'm sure other kids were embarrassed by it. Perhaps, one of the kids rec. the birthday spanking was a kid abused at home. Think what that might have done to that kid.
My rule was always..keep your hands off my kids, or there will be hell to pay

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Originally Posted by ruthie

Well, dodgeball sure as shit wasn't fun for me. I was quite petie, and I got hurt. Kids target other kids they don't like, and try to hurt them. Surely you have witnessed that behavior in kids and adolescents. Bullying. Contact sports at that age aren't appropriate..and especially without a parent's permission.
Maybe the spanking was OK for you, but I'm sure other kids were embarrassed by it. Perhaps, one of the kids rec. the birthday spanking was a kid abused at home. Think what that might have done to that kid.
My rule was always..keep your hands off my kids, or there will be hell to pay

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Ruthie,

Just to be perfectly clear. The paddle was foam rubber. Nobody was hurt. It was a theatric event and was enjoyed by the all. The person being spanked enjoyed the "moment in the sun". He would give false protestation and after he surrendered and would howl in false pain. Smiles were the order of the day.

I understand what you are saying, but we live in a much more violent time now. We are more progressed now, and there is a deeper understanding of violence in society.
Taking this to present times, I would have been pretty pissed if it was my 5yr old.
Actually, I think there needs to be a major curriculum change in our public schools.
Life skills should be part of it. When you raise your kid with kindness as one of the themes, you might just like the results.

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Originally Posted by ruthie

I understand what you are saying, but we live in a much more violent time now. We are more progressed now, and there is a deeper understanding of violence in society.
Taking this to present times, I would have been pretty pissed if it was my 5yr old.
Actually, I think there needs to be a major curriculum change in our public schools.
Life skills should be part of it. When you raise your kid with kindness as one of the themes, you might just like the results.

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Self esteem is learned at home.

Porn does not lead to rape, spanking in school does not cause mentally healthy children to be violent.

So much a part of growing up is never seen by the parent, but how one deals with these adversities is strongly influenced by the sense of self worth a child has, as seeded by the parents.

I told the boys who wanted me to smoke that my Mother did not approve and if they didn't like me because of this I didn't care. I was fine without their approval.

Wrapping our children in a blanket to buffer them from the real word does not make them kinder, more peaceful individuals, just naive ones.

I think the greatest cause of anxiety in a child comes from parents who tell their children how to behave, but don't lead by example. Their concrete minds can't understand this.

I guess a drugged out mother and abusive boyfriends ought to be mentioned, but that is obvious.

I must say that my group of gradeschool friends grew up pretty well and are socially adapted. Those that have faultered are the victims of poor role models at home and parents who call them "stupid" rather then tell them to aim for higher goals.

My 2 cents.

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Originally Posted by hobbes

Self esteem is learned at home.

Porn does not lead to rape, spanking in school does not cause mentally healthy children to be violent.

So much a part of growing up is never seen by the parent, but how one deals with these adversities is strongly influenced by the sense of self worth a child has, as seeded by the parents.

I told the boys who wanted me to smoke that my Mother did not approve and if they didn't like me because of this I didn't care. I was fine without their approval.

Wrapping our children in a blanket to buffer them from the real word does not make them kinder, more peaceful individuals, just naive ones.

I think the greatest cause of anxiety in a child comes from parents who tell their children how to behave, but don't lead by example. Their concrete minds can't understand this.

I guess a drugged out mother and abusive boyfriends ought to be mentioned, but that is obvious.

I must say that my group of gradeschool friends grew up pretty well and are socially adapted. Those that have faultered are the victims of poor role models at home and parents who call them "stupid" rather then tell them to aim for higher goals.

My 2 cents.

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There are also kids who grow up in mentally, emotionally healthy homes that still get fucked up. That's just the way it is. Environment forms the common mind. It is not only parents and the home that effect children. You can give them a secure, grounded home life, and in the end..so what. Then you have kids that grow up in totally fucked up environments and they are able to move through it and grow and mature into healthy adults.
Parents are not the only influence in a kid's life.
Some kids I grew up with are successful, son lead eclectic lives, and some are dead from overdoses. High school for me was in the 70's.

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Originally Posted by ruthie

There are also kids who grow up in mentally, emotionally healthy homes that still get fucked up. That's just the way it is. Environment forms the common mind. It is not only parents and the home that effect children. You can give them a secure, grounded home life, and in the end..so what. Then you have kids that grow up in totally fucked up environments and they are able to move through it and grow and mature into healthy adults.
Parents are not the only influence in a kid's life.
Some kids I grew up with are successful, son lead eclectic lives, and some are dead from overdoses. High school for me was in the 70's.

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Yeah, some kids are fucked up, but that has nothing to do with violent gym class. They are just fucked-up.

don't know that for sure, and neither do I. I agree to disagree. LOL

I personally don't dissagree with the teaching of martial arts (plus dodgeball, foam spankings, and the like...)in school; But I think that the schools inability to realize that some parients will object is idiotic.

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Originally Posted by ruthie

don't know that for sure, and neither do I. I agree to disagree. LOL

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Actually, I do.

No one ever beccame a problem child because of gym class. It all starts at home and how parents instill self esteem.

I don't even think this is worth debate.

Please give me any shred that this care -bear attitude has any merit.

If i tell you that the sun is bright, does putting a child in the closet make this less than real?

If you are to think that dodgeball and karate fundamentally change a child, then please support this with evidence.

At 5, they should learn T'ai Chi or some other related art.

This would not be used for violence as its far too slow, however it also teaches the Discipline required for the other Martial Arts and would give them a head start when they finally do learn one of them.

Its Healthy for them and non violent.... however even this should be with parents consent.


At 5 years old, they will be doing Kung Fu fighting on each other, whether the school teaches it or not anyway however... Copying their favourite cartoon/TV characters of the time.

I used to curse the Power Rangers 8 years ago :lol: :lol:

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Originally Posted by Rat Faced

At 5, they should learn T'ai Chi or some other related art.

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that's what i was thinking of, in my earlier post. i used the word "kata" which is sort of a generic term to describe a variety of martial arts practice routines. Tai Chi Chuan is a specific slow-motion exercise.

Schools over here usually require consent forms for non-curricula activities. Parents can then decide if the activity is appropriate for their child. One, for example, would not ask a child with a medical condition to take part in activities that might result in injury to that specific child.

Nevertheless, for most, physical exercise is good and martial arts have some very good non-violent mental disciplines attached to them. We considered it for SGG - torn as to whether it would help her cope better with her temper or whether it would simply furnish her with even more fire-power than she already possessed. We decided the latter was the more likely outcome and concentrated efforts on her artistic tendancies. On retrospect such a discipline might have resulted in no fewer outbursts but the retribution meted out might have been more artfully executed.

Are you trying to tell us SGG has a temper?

I'd never have noticed that :rolleyes:

I think, from what i've seen, that you've done OK there as a parent Biggles ;)

She appears to be able to hold her own mentally, and from what you say, physically too :lol:

:lol:

Thanks

Fiery is the best description!

Somewhat like Magrat, she takes the view that Wiccans are peaceful and if any say otherwise.......

@ Hobbes...do you have children of your own ?, you have made no mention of it and your entire arguement has been based on yourself so i would like to know.


@ all
Here's the thing.

This is MY 5 year old being taught to do something i have constantly told her is wrong.

If it was a later age and my permission was sought i wouldn't have been so concerned.


This is NOT school corriculum, it is an after school activity that the coach took upon himself to bring into the daytime class..... The coach recognised the problem and the concerns, this was the first time he tried anything like this and was glad of the feed back.

If i wanted my kids to grow up learning combat in school there is an excelent military acadamy in the middle of town.

I have no objection to Martial arts as an after school activity...i have huge objections to it in daytime.

I probably would have shown no concern had they not require my daughter to kick the instructor in the belly.... a punch bag would have been acceptable

I understand what your saying, and agree with you vidcc...

Personally, i dont think any children @ age 5 should be taught how to fight... even with parental consent. That anyone would do this without....

As I said beforehand, the most i would allow personally is Tia Chi.

Like yourself, i would be at the school and giving them hell...

I've gotta agree with what your saying there vidcc, had my kids school decided to teach extra curricular activities without my consent I'd be straight down the school to complain regardless of what it was. I like to know what my kids do at school.


I gotta disagree with RF though. My little girl started Karate at 6 and it has taught her a lot; respect, discipline and control. It’s also a great hobby that we can share together as I joined up the class after she got her red belt (the third belt).
The competitive side is not as bad as it seems either. Under sixteens cannot strike to the head and any hit to the body has do be done with control. She's been there 8 months now and in that time I have seen 2 students get hurt and both times was through falling over.

IMO karate is a great sport at any age.http://www.filesharingtalk.com/vb3/i...lies/smile.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...f9/editani.gif typo.

Vidcc, I fail to see the difference between hitting someone in the head with a rubber ball and karate. How is one appropriate daytime activity, but the other is somehow defined as an afterschool activity requiring consent? It seems arbitrary.

I was relating to you a prospective study of myself and the 35 other children in my class. Most of the kids I went to gradeschool with, graduated highschool with me and are well adjusted.

Those that have grown up to have problems, are those that came from broken homes. Not necessarily single parent families, but more antagonism between the parents.

My best friends (fraternal twins) had their brother die in 3rd grade. This caused the parents' relationship to collapse and my 3rd grade friends had to deal with the guilt associated with this on their own. They unfortunately sought validation outside the home and got involved with the wrong crowd. They are now highschool dropouts and minimum wage earners. One of them actually started sticking himself with needles because he felt he derserved the pain. These are the things that form a troubled adult, not playing in gym.

I agree that you should be aware what activities your children are involved in, but as a phys ed teacher I would wonder why I would need permission for karate and not for any of the other activities which are done. We had jungle gym built over asphalt, now that bad boy should have required a consent form.

I don't need to be burned at the stake to understand that fire is hot. As for hitting other people being "wrong", what is the big deal? Just teach her to respect and treat others as she would wish to be treated. No need to make a big to-do over it.

Play hitting is not the same as an intent to injure, the mentality is totally different. If your daughter can understand not to blow up roadrunner with dynomite, she can understand this.

We all have experienced those over-protective, micro-managing parents. They just tend to take the fun out of everything, as they miss the forest for the trees.

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Hush, my baby. Baby, don't you cry.
Momma's gonna make all of your nightmares come true.
Momma's gonna put all of her fears into you.
Momma's gonna keep you right here under her wing.
She won't let you fly, but she might let you sing.
Momma's gonna keep Baby cozy and warm.
Oooo Babe.
Oooo Babe.
Ooo Babe, of course Momma's gonna help build a wall.

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Again Hobbes i ask....do you have children? ...please answer the question

There is a difference between over protecting and not wishing your child to be taught and made to kick someone in the belly



but i will add that dodgeball is not an activity at this grade

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Originally Posted by vidcc

Again Hobbes i ask....do you have children? ...please answer the question

There is a difference between over protecting and not wishing your child to be taught and made to kick someone in the belly



but i will add that dodgeball is not an activity at this grade

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I don't find the question at all relevant. I will state that I do not have children if that is what you need to hear.

But again. I don't need to be burned at the stake to understand that fire is hot.

Play kicking in the belly is not at all related to kicking with an intent to injure.

http://home.comcast.net/~chat_trivia...er_rangers.gif

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Originally Posted by hobbes

I don't find the question at all relevant. I will state that I do not have children if that is what you need to hear.

But again. I don't need to be burned at the stake to understand that fire is hot.

Play kicking in the belly is not at all related to kicking with an intent to injure.

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It is incredibly relevent...firstly because you have no idea what you are talking about, secondly because you are not a parent all you see is the end result...you do not see the parents having to intervene between 2 siblings fighting...don't give me that s**t about parental dicipline, you are thinking theory and not reality.
If an adult can understand that murder is wrong, why do they still do it? and if adults don't stick to the rules what makes you think children will?
because you are not a parent you can't or won't see the mixed message point about all this. You can't or won't see that i teach my children that hitting is wrong then in school they are told to hit....actions speak louder than words.
Because you are not a parent you don't have to deal with broken ribs when your child is kicked or your child kicks another child.

I don't give a flying fuck about all those "studies"....Humans are not controlled entities and children even less so

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We all have experienced those over-protective, micro-managing parents. They just tend to take the fun out of everything, as they miss the forest for the trees.



Quote:
Hush, my baby. Baby, don't you cry.
Momma's gonna make all of your nightmares come true.
Momma's gonna put all of her fears into you.
Momma's gonna keep you right here under her wing.
She won't let you fly, but she might let you sing.
Momma's gonna keep Baby cozy and warm.
Oooo Babe.
Oooo Babe.
Ooo Babe, of course Momma's gonna help build a wall.

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you talk out your ass and your opinion is as worthless as your experience raising children.
There is a big difference between being over protective and teaching right from wrong. You have no idea what i allow my children to do apart from this one concern. I don't shield them from the world, my oldest is begining to understand the world i've lived in
I have 3 children, each individual and each requiring a different approach. As a parent i can tell you there is only one rule to raising kids..... Throw the rule book away because it's not worth the paper it's written on

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Play hitting is not the same as an intent to injure, the mentality is totally different. If your daughter can understand not to blow up roadrunner with dynomite, she can understand this.

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tell me..... does that coyote ever come out of the screen and ask kids to press the plunger to blow the roadrunner up?

Incidently, she doesn't copy cartoons...she copies the people around her

i'd be allright aslong as the kids knows when to use it, sure you can argue that this will influence the kid to kick people etc. but when a kid plays sonic the hedgehog, he dont suddenly go out and collect rings.

just tell her too keep the kicking business in the lesson

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Originally Posted by Spam-King

i'd be allright aslong as the kids knows when to use it, sure you can argue that this will influence the kid to kick people etc. but when a kid plays sonic the hedgehog, he dont suddenly go out and collect rings.

just tell her too keep the kicking business in the lesson

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again there is a difference between watching something and making them do something.

yes you are correct but kids don't always do as they are told. I have said that i wouldn't be so concerned if it was a later grade.
Again i wouldn't have a problem if it had been kept extra corricula. This took my rights as a parent to decide away from me

Calm please....

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Originally Posted by Rat Faced

Calm please....

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i am calm.

Bit of an emotional rant.

I deal with children on a daily basis, it is an integral part of my job.

I actually don't consider my own childhood a "theory". I understand that it was support given to me by my parents and their ability to lead by example that has made me the self suffiecient adult I am. I have also observed how unhealthy family dynamics have lead to the production of "faulty" children.

I played with guns at 5, I had a cap gun. I didn't grow up to shoot people, nor did any of my friends. We understood the difference between play and reality. This was re-enforced by the conduct of our parents.

Hell, even my dog understood play. I would smack its bottom and it would chase me and pretend to rip me apart. It would bite my hand and shake its head from side to side, while actually only applying minimal pressure.

Emotional rants filled with name calling and expletives do you no service.

doesn't look like a "rant" to me. Most parents have strong emotions when it comes to their childrren's wellbeing

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Originally Posted by hobbes

Bit of an emotional rant.

I deal with children on a daily basis, it is an integral part of my job.

I actually don't consider my own childhood a "theory". I understand that it was support given to me by my parents and their ability to lead by example that has made me the self suffiecient adult I am. I have also observed how unhealthy family dynamics have lead to the production of "faulty" children.

I played with guns at 5, I had a cap gun. I didn't grow up to shoot people, nor did any of my friends. We understood the difference between play and reality. This was re-enforced by the conduct of our parents.

Hell, even my dog understood play. I would smack its bottom and it would chase me and pretend to rip me apart. It would bite my hand and shake its head from side to side, while actually only applying minimal pressure.

Emotional rants filled with name calling and expletives do you no service.

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erm name calling? excuse me...what was that stuff you did? Hypocrite springs to mind..All your post deserved was expletives.

So you had a cap gun and you don't shoot people...good for you...i wonder...did the DC snipers have cap guns?...you see life isn't black and white. for every example of a child not being effected there is an example where they are. Not all criminals come from "bad homes". External influence plays a big part and i don't feel that it's being "emotional" to want to intervene in an external influence i disagree with.
Should i ignore the drug pusher outside the school because my child should know that drugs are bad?..of course not

Are you telling me you were a perfect child that never did anything wrong?

It's not an emotional rant, it's a reply to someone that is either a troller or just unable to see that life doesn't work on theories.

It's not easy raising children and it's not made easier if one has to do it with mixed messages that weren't even supposed to be in the class in the first place.

There is a huge difference between being a child and raising one, so yes your experience of being a child in connection with being a parent is just theory

so what if you work with kids...you give them back.

If you had kids and someone taught them the complete opposite you have been teaching them you would be pissed

I'm not trolling, I am speaking frankly, and if you don't like my opinion, I simply don't care. You are making a mountain out of a molehill.

BTW, I do not consider my childhood a "theory". I can look back a note the techniques used by my parents to rear me.

Shame to close a good thread guys...

Stop the personal comments please...

Hobbes...unless one is actually a parent, they can only imagine what the reality is.
It is a whole different reality, once it is about you and your kids. You can't always judge things on your own childhood. Kids are individuals, have different needs, different psyches, etc