UK troops criticise American forces for 'ruining things'

As the Black Watch set up camp at their new base in the dangerous zone south of Baghdad yesterday, their soldiers voiced anger over their deadly new mission.

Commanders refused to confirm the exact location for the controversial deployment until the 850-strong battle group had secured its base of operations 30 miles from the capital. The area is a hotbed of Islamic terrorists, where rocket attacks, suicide bombers and kidnappings are common. Black Watch soldiers being airlifted north by Hercules C-130 transporters from their base in Basra were promised they would be pulled out of Iraq in early December after their 30-day tour.

But despite the pledge by Colonel James Bashall, chief of staff of the British-led Multinational Division in Iraq, many soldiers are upset. Private Manny Lynch, 19, from Fife, said: "I'm nervous and angry. I was supposed to be going home last Monday and I only found out I was being deployed four days before. It wouldn't have bothered me so much if I had been told when they first knew about it, but finding out just days before I was to go home is hard to take.

"We have heard a lot about the 'Triangle of Death', which makes everyone nervous because it seems much worse up there than it has been down here. We have controlled the situation down here while the Americans seemed to have ruined it up there."

Pte Ian Gordon, 19, from Edinburgh, added: "They are more hostile towards coalition forces up there. In Basra and the south, there is militia trouble but smaller numbers. We've been given extra training in different situations we may face, and different environments. The things we've been told to look out for are vehicle-borne improvised explosive devices and suicide bombers. I think we'll definitely be keeping our helmets on in the early days.

"My folks are quite upset that I'm not coming back and I was feeling pretty low when I first heard, but morale is higher now because we're heading out."

Ben Brereton, a 19-year-old craftsman in the Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers, from Truro in Cornwall, said he was unsure why British troops were being moved. "I feel angry and wonder why we are going there," he said. "It seems we are moving up there to take over a piece of ground while the Americans push off.

"They have got so many more people over here, more than 10 times what we have, and we're having to go and help them out. I don't know how they justify it, but now we're on our way there's nothing you can do, so you just want to get it over with and get home. If they had told us sooner it wouldn't have felt so bad, but it was the fact that we were ready to go home that left us feeling gutted."

An Army spokesman said the advance group of the Black Watch and armoured vehicles had reached their unnamed destination without incident.


Source

It seems that those that have been saying there are not enough US troops in Iraq are being proven right

Sounds like "home sickness" which is quite understandable considering that they are just children.

The Black Watch are one of the elite Regiments of the British Army...

Hard Bastards... ask any MP :lol:

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Originally Posted by Rat Faced

The Black Watch are one of the elite Regiments of the British Army...

Hard Bastards... ask any MP :lol:

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Since both of them lamented that they were ready to go home and were disappointed by the last minute change in plans, I thought these 19 year old hard bastards might be missing Mum and the little lady a wee bit.

Certainly quite understandable.

Well if you were there and had been due to go home and then 4 days before they tell you oops, no sorry you're not going home you're actually go to a major hotspot instead that you would have been happy about it?? :unsure:

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Originally Posted by DanB

Well if you were there and had been due to go home and then 4 days before they tell you oops, no sorry you're not going home you're actually go to a major hotspot instead that you would have been happy about it?? :unsure:

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No, that is why I said it was quite understandable, twice.

The point is not really "Americans ruining things", but rather their disappointment. Such disappointment can lead to comments that come from frustration and not truly reflect the reality of the situation.

You need to see through the literal words to the true meaning.

Certainly "Americans ruining everything" is a much more eyecatching headline than, "Homesick soldiers disappointed at extended stay".

True

I think they are a little more upset, in the fact that they've used different tactics with the locals down there way, and had quite a lot of success in winning the "hearts and minds" (relatively speaking).

Now they are going into a place where the tactics have been "Shoot the crap outa anything that looks like it might be unfriendly".

OR:

As Bremner, Bird and Fortune put it:

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Your all used to not knowing who's friendly and who's an enemy, so we're making it simple for you. The Americans have made sure that everyone around you is an enemy, so you wont have to worry about that any more.

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My first reaction to this was tuff shit, welcome to the war, boys. I got a little ticked off about the comment that there weren't enough US troops there. Maybe if there were more UK troops there the US troops wouldn't have to be doing two and three rotations, and there wouldn't be stop loss orders, and the US reservists could go home to their families..... but that was the former US Marine talking...

This just shows how out of hand it is, how much of a fuck up Bush started, and maybe the Brits (not Bush's prison bitch Blair, of course) will start talking about pulling their troops before their casualties start going up from 50 something to ??. What pisses me off is that this even has to be happening...

Ok... fire at will.... http://www.anywhichway.net/images/smiles/tomato.gif

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Originally Posted by the ratty named one

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Your all used to not knowing who's friendly and who's an enemy, so we're making it simple for you. The Americans have made sure that everyone around you is an enemy, so you wont have to worry about that any more.

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Any troops that have been around a while longer than those 19 year olds and served in N. Ireland will see the point of that joke quite well.:(

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Originally Posted by scroff

My first reaction to this was tuff shit, welcome to the war, boys. I got a little ticked off about the comment that there weren't enough US troops there. Maybe if there were more UK troops there the US troops wouldn't have to be doing two and three rotations, and there wouldn't be stop loss orders, and the US reservists could go home to their families..... but that was the former US Marine talking...

This just shows how out of hand it is, how much of a fuck up Bush started, and maybe the Brits (not Bush's prison bitch Blair, of course) will start talking about pulling their troops before their casualties start going up from 50 something to ??. What pisses me off is that this even has to be happening...

Ok... fire at will.... http://www.anywhichway.net/images/smiles/tomato.gif

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Well i'll not flame you :lol:

however this is an American war that the British helped with, they were under no obligation to do so yet still did, desipite international dissaproval.

They encountered 4 roadside bombs on the way up there and were delayed by 24 hours due to this. One member of the blackwatch has already died (though this is being reported as a vehicle accident instead of an act of insurgence). I know I wouldn't want to go up there :( So troops aren't supposed to question the decisions made by those higher up the chain and they're being paid to do such a task, I'm sure the grumblings will increase if the blackwatch start being picked off like the U.S troops have been.

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Originally Posted by vidcc

Any troops that have been around a while longer than those 19 year olds and served in N. Ireland will see the point of that joke quite well.:(

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True, but those people who served in N Ireland are probably still in Basra and they only sent the 19 year olds to get experienced and then they become the veterens of tomorrow.

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Originally Posted by vidcc

Well i'll not flame you :lol:

however this is an American war that the British helped with, they were under no obligation to do so yet still did, desipite international dissaproval.

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I agree except for the part about it being an American war... this is a Bush war, but I get your point... of course I do recall Blair making his own arguments for invading Iraq, so I might be inclined to call it a Bush/Blair war. :cool:

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Originally Posted by SeK612

They encountered 4 roadside bombs on the way up there and were delayed by 24 hours due to this. One member of the blackwatch has already died (though this is being reported as a vehicle accident instead of an act of insurgence). I know I wouldn't want to go up there :( So troops aren't supposed to question the decisions made by those higher up the chain and they're being paid to do such a task, I'm sure the grumblings will increase if the blackwatch start being picked off like the U.S troops have been.

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I'm not up on anything much in the UK, but I do have an impression of Brits as being more vocal in their politics than your average American, at least maybe until recently. I hope your guys don't start getting picked off, and if they do, I hope you all start screaming bloody murder...

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Originally Posted by Rat Faced

I think they are a little more upset, in the fact that they've used different tactics with the locals down there way, and had quite a lot of success in winning the "hearts and minds" (relatively speaking).

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Rat,

You are better educated on this than I, but isn't Basra more composed of the oppressed Shia Muslims? This was the city in 1990 that rose up, only to be slaughtered because of lack of coalition support.

These people were the ones who wanted Saddam out.

Contrast this with the Sunni triangle, the area the US is attempting control. The Sunni's were a minority in Iraq, but those favored by Saddam and thus those that have everything to lose.

Democracy would certainly be a royal stake in the ass to a minority who enjoyed priveldge under the favoritism of Saddam.

Are we comparing apples and oranges?

Hobbes, you are certainly right that this "Sunni triangle" is going to be harder to control than the mainly Shia south. However, the apparent tactic of "Shoot first, identify the bad guys (if any) later" is never going to win any friends.

Ok, British troops have a lot of experience in keeping things calmer, but it appears this is a lesson that their US counterparts simply have no desire to learn. Maybe that's deliberate, no-one seems to be sending the troops to that class.

They may be apples and oranges, but overturning the fruit cart doesn't help.

The UK military certainly has more experience in dealing with the populations of countries they occupy, no? The purpose of the US military is to "kill people and break things". That should explain alot.... :ermm:

Hobbes is correct in that the headline was plucked out of a throw away comment. The UK and US have different military structures and strategies. However, it is not just location. The US troops have been attacked in both Kurdish and Shia areas too. The US is seen as the primary enemy and insurgents will go out of their way to attack US troops.

The UK military has stuck rigidly to tour lengths to maintain morale. This departure was taken for political reasons and the UK troops are rightly unimpressed - they are professionals - the politicians are rank amateurs. To be honest it is not clear what they are supposed to do for 30 days. It will take that long to get set up and work who they are supposed to be protecting and who they are fighting. If there are casualties it will cost the Labour party and in particular Tony Blair. The media (of all political wings) are behind the troops not the Government on this one. If they have have been sent to provide cover for an attack on Falujah it could get very nasty indeed.

About 70 UK troops have died so far. We have around 10% of the forces out there so if things had been equal we would have taken about 130 casualties. I believe Kerry's comments have been taken out of context somewhat. The US have taken 90% of the casualties but they make up about 85% of the force. My understanding of his words was that the US would be bearing a more equitible burden if Bush had gathered more friends to the fold and that US forces played a much smaller part in the proceedings. In Afghanistan much of the ground fighting was done by the Northern Alliance with US, UK, German and French special forces assisting in specific areas. It was air support that gave the Northern Alliance the edge. Interestingly, the media said little or nothing about Northern Alliance casaulties in those battles. Cannon fodder perhaps?