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The Dutch are up in arms over Islamic immigration following the horrible mutilation murder of that horrid little anti-semitic twit, Theo van Gogh. :ohmy:
He makes a film highlighting the terrible plight of Islamic females, and is slain in the street for his trouble. :blink:
There are rumblings in Amsterdam and other locales indicating the Muslims should leave the Netherlands or be forced out. :angry:
How can they be so intolerant? :whistling
STFU is my immediate thoughtQuote:
Originally Posted by j2k4
where the hell did you get this information - at your local redneck kkk lynching party?
that last sentence is an exact copy of what you just stated. (do you work for tabloid newspapers?)
please take a plane down to amsterdam, smell the air, talk to the people, chill, forget about america paranoia, eat some great food intigrated from muslim culture, relax, concider the "other" and post a reply to this thread once you have woken up.
Yes, it is all America's fault. Post something new idiot.Quote:
Originally Posted by 15%
Maybe you should wakeTFU!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by 15%
RIF
Read j2's post again, then comeback.
WTF are you talking about with America paranoia? This happened in Netherlands!!! :blink:
Either way,
This:
...is total bull.Quote:
There are rumblings in Amsterdam and other locales indicating the Muslims should leave the Netherlands or be forced out.
If there's any country in Europe that is tolerant towards Muslims,or any religion,it's the Netherlands.
What is your source btw?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Filliz
Sounds like a STFU is order. :dry:Quote:
THE HAGUE, Netherlands (AP) - One of the most popular politicians in the Netherlands said Friday his country's democracy is under threat and called for rejecting immigration from non-western nations in the wake of the killing of a Dutch filmmaker, allegedly by a Muslim radical.
"We are a Dutch democratic society. We have our own norms and values," Geert Wilders told The Associated Press in an interview Friday. "If you chose radical Islam, you can leave, and if you don't leave voluntarily, then we will send you away. This is the only message possible."
In his first interview to the foreign media since the slaying of filmmaker Theo van Gogh on Nov. 2, Wilders said his own life has been repeatedly threatened and he has begun living under state protection, and had to stay away from his own home.
Wilders split with the free-market coalition partner Liberal party two months ago because it backed the candidacy of Turkey - a predominantly Muslim country - to the European Union.
He formed his own conservative party, the Wilders Group, which has one seat in the 150-member parliament. But a recent poll suggested his anti-immigrant message was reverberating through the Dutch electorate, and he would win 24 seats if elections were held today - up from 19 seats before van Gogh's murder.
Muslims make up about six per cent of the Netherlands' 16 million people. Wilders said he was concerned about studies saying some 10 per cent of Dutch Muslims - or about 100,000 people - support radical Islamic views.
Without swift, bold action, Islamic fundamentalism will topple the country's democratic system, he said.
"The Netherlands has been too tolerant to intolerant people for too long," he said, "We should not import a retarded political Islamic society to our country. There is nothing to be ashamed of to say this. It's not Islam. I speak out against the facts."
In Brussels, Belgium, European Union leaders met to discuss immigration, one of Europe's most pressing and sensitive issues. EU justice and interior ministers agreed to demand that immigrants learn language of their adopted countries and adhere to "European values" to guide them toward better integration.
Even as the number of immigrants arriving in Europe falls due to tougher policies, led by a sharp drop in the Netherlands, Wilders said closing the borders isn't enough. Newcomers should be forced to integrate.
Mosques that advocate fundamentalism should be shut down, he said.
"If in a mosque there is recruitment for jihad it's not a house of prayer, it's a house of war. If it's not a house of prayer, it should be closed down," he said.
Wilders, known by the Dutch for his radical positions and peroxide-blond hair, has been a member of parliament since 1998. He was born and schooled in the southern Dutch city Venlo, near the German border.
"I'm very tough on radical Islam. I have the toughest ideas on beating this problem, and I'm proud of it. I say nothing wrong. I'm no racist, no anti-Islamist," he said.
Wilders and the Dutch police took the death threats even more seriously following the slaying of van Gogh, who had produced a television drama critical of how women are treated in some Muslim societies. The filmmaker was shot and stabbed to death, allegedly by a 26-year-old dual Dutch-Moroccan citizen threatening jihad, or holy war.
The most recent threats were disclosed when two terror suspects, arrested Nov. 10 after a daylong standoff in which several policemen were injured by a hand grenade, have been charged with threatening Wilders and other Dutch politicians, their lawyer said.
The latest video threat broadcast on the Internet - in Dutch, with Arabic music in the background - condemns Wilders for insulting Islam and offers the reward of paradise for his beheading.
Wilders' style and cause are reminiscent of Pim Fortuyn, a flamboyant political outsider who put immigration on the national agenda before the 2002 elections. Fortuyn was shot to death by a Dutch animal-rights activist days before the vote, but major parties since have largely embraced his ideas.
On Friday, he cited a report by Dutch intelligence saying recruitment for jihad is taking place in as many as 20 mosques in the Netherlands, and said they should be closed and their imams, or preachers, arrested and deported.
"If we don't do anything . . . we will lose the country that we have known for centuries," he said. "People don't want the Netherlands to be lost, and this is something that I get angry about and I am going to fight for, to keep the country Dutch."
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http://overtoom.tv/webcam/cam3_00001.jpghttp://s-j.xs4all.nl/cgi-bin/nph-webcamQuote:
The Dutch are up in arms
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theo_van_Gogh_(film_director)Quote:
that horrid little anti-semitic twit, Theo van Gogh
that would be interestingQuote:
Muslims should leave the Netherlands or be forced out.
Holland consists of three quarters of a million muslims + 400 mosques.
but yes there are some issues at hand it was just the way j2k4 presents it
is extremly over exagerrated
So the Dutch right wing have taken this opportunity to spew forth their bile. What a shock!!1
It would be the same in any country but it is accentuated here given the recent history of political assasinations in The Netherlands.
There may be rumblings in the right wing political parties about kicking the muslims out and there may be a few more disgruntled people but on the whole the Dutch people are still welcoming and tolerant to muslim immigrants.
If you're not there listen to what the dutch people say, not the reaction of the right wing parties who will - obviously - seize upon this and twist it to their ends.
The only thing I see that can be construed as over exagerration was the "Dutch are up in arms" bit.Quote:
Originally Posted by 15%
Other than that, your crap post seems to be the only bullshit....that's at least what I gather from the smell.
You put yourself out there without even questioning whether he REALLY got it from his redneck KKK party or a viable news source.
A shit insult 0%. :dry:
(besides that, he doesn't call them KKK parties anymore. It's the Christian Soldiers Of Texas) :lol: :ph34r:
OMG they're driving like loonies!!! :helpsmiliQuote:
Originally Posted by 15%
Watch it man :P, the KKK is mainly in Arkansas, Mississippi, Tennesse and such. Not to mention the German, Canadian, And UK division of the IKK. Texans are equal opportunity stringer-uppers. :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Busyman
Quote:
Originally Posted by 15%
Well 15%, the point really was to piss you off.
It is called "turn about is fair play".
See how emotionally you reacted when someone posted one comment by a Netherland politician and used it paint the entire country as "racist or intolerant".
You called J2 a member of the KKK, just as ridiculous as me saying that your politicians are following in Hitlers' footsteps.(The finest of the specious political comparison cliches, and a forum favorite).
I imagine the whole point was to show others what it is like to have people posting slanted comments about your country day in and day out. The post may be in fact be true, but the truth is only partial and the comments attempts to smear the entire country with the comments of a few.
Welcome to America buddy, this shit is our daily bread. Maybe people will give a moments pause before jumping to conclusions about America and Americans. As you accurately comment, it is both the style and exaggeration which bring the frustration.
Chicago SunTimesQuote:
Muslims now form the largest minority religion in the United States,
with
an estimated 6 million followers. An estimated 400,000 live in the
Chicagoarea.
American paranoia? for goodness sake! We have MILLIONS of them, and we work with them.
Hang on a minute, hobbes.
J2 cast a slight over the Dutch people and their tolerance.
The comments directed at Americans, at least by myself, are never directed at the American people as a whole, just the policy makers - particularly the foreign policy makers.
I've noticed this is, in fact, the second time in a short space of time that J2 has done this. Once dragging up a 14 day old headline to decry French soldiers and now seemingly revelling in his perception of the intolerance of the Dutch. There may be more but I generally avoid anything that looks even remotely linked to US politics in here.
You may think that this "turn about is fair play" tactic is all well and good. I think it's an excellent way to deflect from the shortcomings of your own beliefs but a fairly crass way of getting your point across.
Bullshit.Quote:
Originally Posted by manker
Most of the anti-American bullshit on this forum is directed at Americans. Period.
Well I cannot speak for others - as I indicated in my post - but I can say what I believe to be the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by Busyman
Even if that was so, you seem to be deriding the practice. Do you think that J2 should lower himself to that level.
I wouldn't.
To what level?Quote:
Originally Posted by manker
this was a giveaway....
It didn't say every locale. He even put that sentence in there which is more than I say for other posts of anti-Americans.Quote:
Originally Posted by j2k4
WTF is he supposed to say...some Dutch are up in arms?
Check some more sources. This is a real issue in Dutch government and some bullshit that will not go away. I found the article in 5 seconds of Googling (which I normally don't do).
Bottomline is Filliz and 15% were all fucked up over squat.
15% did the the same shit over a damn a Jurassic Park scene. :dry:
I don't have to check any more sources. I'm pretty well up on the issue.
Which is why I knew what J2 posted wasn't indicative of how Dutch people in general feel about muslims.
Also, yes. Saying that 'Some Dutch people are up in arms' is a lot better than saying 'The Dutch are up in arms'.
Black or white is rarely the case.
Quote:
Originally Posted by manker
Manker,
I don't think J2 was taking himself seriously in this thread. His overuse of smilies was my clue, not really his "serious" style.
I don't think that his point was to really attempt to smear the Dutch but more a cathartic poke. Could other countries have pimples, too, who would have thought? There is just such an overwhelming focus on America here that one would think the rest of the world didn't shit. The French post was another post in the same vein.
You think pulling something up from 2 weeks ago is dredging, what about the missing munitions thread, right before the elections? That was months to a year old, forget the exact dates.
You may not post comments about Americans, but then that would place you you in the the vast minority. But that is at least a start. ;)
You are from Wales, correct? How many times have you been called brain washed by the media? People here seem to think that somehow they get the super secret real news and we are brainwashed by our fanatic Christian government or is it our Jewish controlled media, I forget what they are calling it this week. This is beyond idiotic but still a favorite forum comment. Just between you and me, I have an internet connection and I can read the Beeb everyday, as well as Al-Jazeera. In fact, I can access ANY media outlet my little heart desires. But then again, I am just brainwashed by FOX :no:
Hmmm...sugar-coat a semi-serious post to not piss off the international posters. Why?Quote:
Originally Posted by manker
This whole "offended" shit came about by some posters, unlike yourself, not being well up on the issue and not even bothering to read.
Another giveaway...
Quote:
Originally Posted by j2k4
You probably have an excellent point, about others stereotyping the American people. As I say I hardly comment on, or read, the posts where US politics are at the crux of the debate, so it's highly likely I've missed many of the comments perceived by Busy and yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes
Such comments would meet with similar derision from me as J2's soundbites above. That is if I commented at all, which is probably unlikely given how jaded I feel about the subject.
I could also tell that J2 wasn't addressing this matter in his normal style, but that doesn't make it any less wrong to write that the Dutch people are up in arms. The fact of the matter is, as 15% wrote, the vast majority are still accomodating to muslims. I still think the way that this topic was engineered to deflect from the problems that the US has is hardly the stuff from which great debates are born, it's rather gauche.
I'm not a big fan of this "turn about is fair play"
Or as I prefer to term it. Plain and simple tit-for-tat :D
---
Btw, yes, I am from Wales and it isn't really my place to be pontificating about The Netherlands but it is an issue that interests me. I felt the Dutch members that had posted had good points and I wanted to add to them.
Yes, and the VAST majority of Americans are tolerant to Muslims. People only tend to post about exceptions to that rule.
And J2, unlike his "tit for tat" adversaries offered one huge difference, he added the smilies. That is the point, he made it plain that this was just an example of how one could use sound bites to flame ANY country.
It is NOT true "tit for tat" as he is showing his cards.
The post has nothing to do with Dutch people, it has to do with how those who are poltically motivated/agenda motivated can post partial truths to paint others in a derogatory manner.
I think the visceral reaction to the post rather nicely demonstrates the emotions an American poster has to deal with on a regular basis. I only pointed out your nationality, as you fall below the international radar and people aren't posting bullshit about Wales everyday.
It is so effortless to copy and paste some biased article, but much more difficult and time consuming to take the effort to show others just how the article is not telling the entire truth.
In this case, rather than play this straight up, that the Dutch are intolerant, J2 made it obviously tongue in cheek to demonstrate how easy it is take cheap shots at any person or country you wish.
I think, overall, the goal is to have people think before they post. Sadly our forum is so Anti-USA that there is this pile-on bandwagon mentality and people tend to frolick about in such posts.
Being American is like being a white male, everyone is justified in making fun of you, but you take a shot at any other group, you are labeled as an intolerant, sexist, racist bar-steward.
Provided J2 pops along later and confirms that he was merely demonstrating what the US members have to put up with then I share your views.
Yes I saw the smilies but I am still not wholly convinced that he doesn't share the sentiments of the post.
I think it is a little unfair to cattle prod the Dutch members into a reaction to get this point across but if that's all it was then ...meh. I was more concerned with the invalidity of the statement contained within the post.
Btw, I particularly agree with this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes
I have to say that i didnt think the post was directed at all the Dutch, just like i dont take the "anti-US" posts as anti-American.
In every country you'll have people that agree with you and those that dont, so to label everyone with the same brush is daft.
Unless i state otherwise, just about every post i make about the US, is about their Government Policy... 49% of the population didnt vote for that Government, some that did dont agree with the parts im most strongly against.
I likewise attack the UK Government, this is not attacking the British population... just the Bar Stewards in charge.
I'm sure most people realise that... I know that J2 does
:rolleyes:
The Dutch, in general, are so laid back its unbelievable... but they do have their hardliners, just like everywhere else.
A shitload are though. :dry: I've had the pleasure of a discourse with one of your esteemed members of the moderation team.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rat Faced
He is not alone of course. :ermm:
My appologies if you ever take any of my posts as anti-american :P
I've met quite a few, and the vast majority that i have are nice people ;)
As I've said before, I cant see how its even possible to have an anti-american post.. There is going to be at least one state that is very similar to your home country (if your european).. Its more like a Federation of 50 different countries.
You cant, as an example, say that California and Utah have more in common than they have as differences..
The only thing that links them is Federal Taxes and Foreign Policy :lol:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rat Faced
Rat,
I really feel compelled to comment on this, even though you were being light hearted. You posted something pretty similar a year or so ago and I will repeat that you are pretty much way off base on this comment. We are NOT, in any way, like a federation of 50 countries.
Pick any large city and it would be very difficult to tell one from another.
Most sub-cultures in the US are present WITHIN each State. People are more logically grouped into: urban-poor, urban/suburban and rural. These groups have significantly different upbringing to be conspicuous to even superficial observation (clothes, eye contact, politeness). In the suburbs, people will generally wait and hold a door open for you, where-as, in the inner city, they would make a point not to.
States boundaries are rather arbitrary, lines are drawn for the purpose of creating zones for political representation.
I think I would feel completely out of place moving from suburbia to a rural setting, whether it be within Missouri or moving 1000s of miles to Washington State. Having moved 1100 miles from the St. Louis suburbs to the San Antonio suburbs, I hardly see much of a difference. The main difference is the weather and that my toasted ravioli have been replaced with chicken quesadillas.
So many families are spread across the nation, rather than living in the same city as generations before, and there is so much travel in the country, America is pretty much become homogenized. And like homogenized milk, when churned, separates naturally into layers (inner city/urban/rural).
I will admit that there are regional differences, but not really very many.
PS- This has been a public service commentary by Hobbes for those preparing to visit the States. :w00t:
Done. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by manker
I never would have guessed that post would be taken on it's face, but it proved the point (that Hobbes, B, Rat, etc. tumbled to) rather better than I had even hoped.
Absent the smilies, I still don't suppose I'd have fooled Hobbes; sharp as a tack, he is. :P
Then the sarcasm with which I read it was intended? Phew! ;)
You can actually read with sarcasm? :huh:Quote:
Originally Posted by NikkiD
I'll pay American dollars if you can teach me, Nikki... :P
:blushing: Good point. Perhaps I should have said "the sarcasm I perceived while reading it". :lol:
Just so-Quote:
Originally Posted by NikkiD
However, if you can dope out a way to do it, my offer stands. :D
I should be able to figure out a way, I certainly use it enough whilst speaking. I'm told this is often annoying. :rolleyes:
I don't know about the annoying part; I was primarily interested in the dope. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by NikkiD
'Nite, Nik. :)