So Called"friendly Fire"

I just want to vent my frustration at U.S Airforce now. Just this morning's latest episode has left me num. A British convoy of trucks CLEARLY MARKED on recon were atttacked by a U.S fighter. TWICE. Even after the convoy were not retaliating fire and doing there best to signal the U.S aircraft, The U.S fighter opened fire anyway and killed many british soldiers.

The remaining caommander has been interviewed this morning, he's thoughts were:

"THE U.S PILOT HAD NO REGARD FOR HUMAN LIFE! A COWBOY OUT ON A JOLLY!".

I really don't care if any U.S members flame me for this it will just show how Insensitive they are to this war!. :(

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Originally posted by POWER_USER@31 March 2003 - 06:46
I just want to vent my frustration at U.S Airforce now. Just this morning's latest episode has left me num. A British convoy of trucks CLEARLY MARKED on recon were atttacked by a U.S fighter. TWICE. Even after the convoy were not retaliating fire and doing there best to signal the U.S aircraft, The U.S fighter opened fire anyway and killed many british soldiers.

The remaining caommander has been interviewed this morning, he's thoughts were:

"THE U.S PILOT HAD NO REGARD FOR HUMAN LIFE! A COWBOY OUT ON A JOLLY!".

I really don't care if any U.S members flame me for this it will just show how Insensitive they are to this war!. :(

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Thanks for inviting me.

Time to burn.

First, you need to grow up and accept the fact that our soldiers are human.
Humans make mistakes.
Humans panic.
Humans freak out.
Humans can, at times, be insensitive.
Doesn't make it right.
Never makes it right.
But EVERYONE is prone to error.

Even you.

It is a travesty when our men lose their lives due to human error.
No excuses from me.

But don't get high and mighty about it.

You, in that same situation, are just as prone to mistakes as he was.

Why do you think you waste so much of your life looking for your car keys or wondering what happened to that pen that you were just using. (Its in your hand if you were still wondering).

Our military leaders make mistakes every day.
Those mistakes also cost lives.

This is not insensitivity talking.
This is the voice of one who witnessed human error first-hand and had to leave the military because of what I had seen.

I was young and could not accept that the person in charge of our operation could make a mistake.

I assure you, when the pilot realized what he had done, he spent alot of time reflecting on his actions.
Turning it over and over in his mind.

He will do that for the rest of his life.

Regardless of outward appearances to the contrary.

Please grow up before you add to the torment of someone who will already never forgive themselves for what they did in error.

Peace

I wasn't going to get involved in this, but I have to agree with you Power User, I am fucking fed up of the yanks killing our men... Don't they get ANY training as to how to tell friend from foe?

So far the UK has confirmed they've lost 25 men.. Only 5 of which were killed by Iraqi's.. The rest have been either accidents, or FuckWit Fire. The only consolation we have is it's not just Brits they do it to, but also themselves.

It was the same in the last Gulf conflict too, and we were told it wouldn't happen again, but it still does, and we don't get an apology, we just get told "Shit Happens..."

Gee thanks, and I'm sure you'd be just as understanding if the boot was on the other foot..... not!

agree with you, the tank that dumb yank attacked had a big union jack flag on the front for fucksake!

thats 22 british troops now dead due to friendly fire and accidents ALL by the americans and i dont think the british have killed 1 US troop yet

goes to show which army has the better training

and like the guy above said you say all that about these things happen but if it were the british who killed USA you'd all be moaning then :angry:

This really frustraits me beyond belief! I knew someone in the original gulfwar who was killed by the yanks and they have been giving the reputation of killing more allies in some wars than the opposition! I am not anti-american, not at all but with all thier wealth you would think they may invest in a bit more millitary intelligence? I mean, ach whats the use! What really sickens me is the thought that the poor families of these young men fighting for thier country have to be told that they were not killed in battle heroically but destroyed by the starter of this war, thier allie and suposed friend, America.

Quote:

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Oh, say can you see, by the dawn's early light,
What so proudly we hailed at the twilight's last gleaming?
Whose broad stripes and bright stars, through the perilous fight,
O'er the ramparts we watched, were so gallantly streaming?
And the rockets' red glare, the bombs bursting in air,
Gave proof through the night that our flag was still there.
O say, does that star-spangled banner yet wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave?

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I will say no more, think about it.

Quote:

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One of the survivors criticised the US pilot for showing "no regard for human life" and accused him of being "a cowboy" who had "gone out on a jolly".


The US A-10 aircraft circled and came around for a second attack
Another survivor said he stumbled out of the burning wreckage of his light tank and waved frantically to the American pilot to try to halt his second attack.

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that was taken from BBC Website

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/image...a10_203afp.jpg

Quote:

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Originally posted by POWER_USER@31 March 2003 - 12:46
I just want to vent my frustration at U.S Airforce now. Just this morning's latest episode has left me num. A British convoy of trucks CLEARLY MARKED on recon were atttacked by a U.S fighter. TWICE. Even after the convoy were not retaliating fire and doing there best to signal the U.S aircraft, The U.S fighter opened fire anyway and killed many british soldiers.

The remaining caommander has been interviewed this morning, he's thoughts were:

"THE U.S PILOT HAD NO REGARD FOR HUMAN LIFE! A COWBOY OUT ON A JOLLY!".

I really don't care if any U.S members flame me for this it will just show how Insensitive they are to this war!. :(

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Respectfuly:

How can you say these things?

Do you think that The U.S. sets out to shoot it's hand? No, The main goal is not to open fire on our own support, if so , what's to GAIN.

These are really hard times for all troops involved, They are doing as best they can.

I greive the loss of Your fellow Countrymen, but I also beileve it is a risk and danger that is taken into consideration by both sides.

I hope these accidents are monuments that we can learn from to prevent future occurances.

As I posted to you earlier:
BELOW.

QUOTE,

If your hard drive isn't compatible with your cd drive, or driver with os does that mean that one is lesser, or that maybe it can be fixxed by a commuication alteration?

That is the comparison that you used in a team work related effort.

Let's look at the platform, It is very time consuming, and expensive to try interface every single faccet of this TEAM EFFORT.

I would think that one knows what they are exposed to when they are serving there Countries forces. Thus, meaning they know what the consiquinces are. That's that.

Last, military only acts as a chess board to the player, so mililtary acts as a catylst to create or prevent an action. And just my own thought, when or if you are in a team activity, do you always look for ways to help and support your victory, or do you blame your TEAM MATES for mistakes that led to failure.

Just a thought

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Originally posted by barbarossa@31 March 2003 - 13:52
I wasn't going to get involved in this, but I have to agree with you Power User, I am fucking fed up of the yanks killing our men... Don't they get ANY training as to how to tell friend from foe?

So far the UK has confirmed they've lost 25 men.. Only 5 of which were killed by Iraqi's.. The rest have been either accidents, or FuckWit Fire. The only consolation we have is it's not just Brits they do it to, but also themselves.

It was the same in the last Gulf conflict too, and we were told it wouldn't happen again, but it still does, and we don't get an apology, we just get told "Shit Happens..."

Gee thanks, and I'm sure you'd be just as understanding if the boot was on the other foot..... not!

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I can see your point of view, but you crying won't bring them back. This is an article sent to me from one of my Proffesors.

BTW, I didn't write or approve of this statement completely.

Quote.
February 14, 2003.
Today it was reported that severe earthquakes have occurred in 10 different locations in France. The severity was measured in excess of 10 on the Richter Scale. The cause was the 56,681 dead American soldiers buried in French soil rolling over in their graves. According to the American Battle Monuments Commission there are 26,255 Yankee dead from World War I buried in 4 cemeteries in France. There are 30,426 American dead from World War II buried in 6 cemeteries in France. These 56,681 brave American heroes died in their youth to liberate a country which is guilty of shameful unspeakable behavior in the 21st century. May the United States of America never forget their sacrifice as we find ways to forcefully deal with the Godforsaken unappreciative, forgetful country of France!

What has France got to do with anything on this thread?

OOpps, I posted by accident,

I guess I am stupid to?

Blue on Blue happens.

Live with it.

I have commented on how unfair it was to blame the US troops that set up the Patriot System that shot down the Tornado. No heads should roll for that, its an automatic system, the communications failure could have been at EITHER end.

No UK ppl seem to have mentioned the Blue on Blue on US troops, both here and in Desert Storm......maybe because our news service dont see any gain by giving it the same airtime.

WE killed US troops in Desert Storm too. One that comes readily to mind is a Chieftain Tank that blew the fuck out of an Abrahams (sp) Tank......ever hear of that??

Or how about the UK tank that opened fire on another UK tank in this war?


I can say one thing though..........if the US pilots werent so fucked up on drugs when they got into the cockpit, this type of thing wouldnt happen as often. USA are the only country that thinks it right to have their pilots high in this way. (Consider the Canadians they killed not so long ago....and they werent even in a combat situation then)


But even if they werent, Blue on Blue would still happen......it happens ALL THE TIME! Anyone that doesnt know the extent that it happens, and the reasons why, obviously has never been in the military.

Trust me on one thing OK?

If it DIDNT happen......there would actually be MORE casualties. It would mean people were taking TOO LONG to make decisions.....resulting in A LOT more casualties from ENEMY fire.


The crack about the French is totally unwarrented. If you feel that way, then you must still yern to be a Constitutional Monarchy......as the French sent thousands to their death to gain the USA independance.

They also fought valiantly whilst under enemy occupation in WWII...If US troops were captured they were POWs....if the French were, they were shot.

Its comments like this, that is making the world so anti-american.....you really arent doing yourself any favours.

Drugs do suck,

Does anyone know if any navy allows alcohol on board for general consumption?

There was no insult to My Statement.

I apoligize if they were taken.

Please read post again.


Thanks in advc.

Quote:

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Originally posted by WebCheF@1 April 2003 - 00:28
Drugs do suck,

Does anyone know if any navy allows alcohol on board for general consumption?

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I think most do.

But NOT when the guys are going on duty....

I think it is a strange thing. Drugs are bad, very bad (minus marijuana I believe, but that is another debate! so leave it out!) I feel they should have drugs with them such as morphine to administer if they need it but going out on duty high, well I think that is wrong (they may not, but that is what I understood from what you have said)

The U.S. military prohited all forms of drug use in the military. They monitor as best they can. every person in the forces is randomly screened. but not every day.

Last. the U.S. Navy does not allow boose on board. Only on port leave.

Now the Admiral is a different story. LOL

You may find that this does not extend to certain 'uppers' which they use to keep the Pilots awake. Look at the reasons for the dead Canadians.....

'Uppers' also produce a 'High' which affects judgement....this is the thing i was refering to.

Ahh,

Yeah, I have had those in my day. Made a thousand dollar bet on black at a casino, Very Bad.

My Point as I belive yours is also, when shining light on your friends, in a crisis, it makes it very easy to forget what We are trying to find.

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Originally posted by POWER_USER@31 March 2003 - 12:46
I just want to vent my frustration at U.S Airforce now. Just this morning's latest episode has left me num.  A British convoy of trucks CLEARLY MARKED on recon were atttacked by a U.S fighter. TWICE. Even after the convoy were not retaliating fire and doing there best to signal the U.S aircraft,  The U.S fighter opened fire anyway and killed many british soldiers.

The remaining caommander has been interviewed this morning, he's thoughts were:

"THE U.S PILOT HAD NO REGARD FOR HUMAN LIFE! A COWBOY OUT ON A JOLLY!".

I really don't care if any U.S members flame me for this it will just show how Insensitive they are to this war!. :(

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I am very also troubled by the high number of friendly fire
casualties. I share your feelings.

Mistakes, miscomunication, tiredness and other factors seem to
play a major role in every large endeavor. This one unfortunately with
deadly consecuences.

When I first posted regarding Friendly Fire originally it was because of the U.K fighter getting shot down by U.S anti-aircraft batteries. After many days of study the conclusion came down to a human error.

I accept obviously that in a war there will be human errors causing accidents,which could costs lives. But on this latest incident, I have and so have the people involved in the incident classed it as neglegence and incompetance. Not an accident.

The soldier who saw his friend killed by the U.S pilot actually saw the pilot clearly as he passed over on the 1st run just 50 metres overhead. More then 10 of them were waving at the pilot to stop. A civillian child of 12 was just 10 metres away walking with the convoy.

The A-10 are equipt with amazing zoom imaging which can read a 12" by 14" sign form 1500 metres away!!. I really want to know what happens with this pilot. Although the U.S goverment has issued an official apology to the British army and that nothing like this would ever happen again, The only way I can see that happening is if they start Court Marshalling these soliders.

Power User, I understand your point, believe me.

And I lost people I knew in Blue on Blue fire in Desert Storm....I dont like it.



However my point stands.

I would rather these occasionally happened, than everyone 'hesitates' in a possible life/death situation....this would ultimately create a much higher number of casualties.

I know what equipment this particular aircraft has, however...I refer you to my previous post as to why this particular type of accident happens.

I'd be amazed if the soldier was court-martialed. It would be...nice...(maybe "fitting" would be a better word)... if the soldier was made to attend each of the funeral services, (albiet maybe incognito to avoid more pain to families), so that he can see the consequences of his actions. :( This tends to be the missing aspect in these sorts of actions. Within a matter of weeks the pilot will be led to anger, instead of responsibility, by his military comrades, and he'll be able to blot out the parts of his psyche that make him human. No responsibility will really be levied at him. "It's war, damnit! Mistakes happen!" will be the rallying cry. :angry:
Anyone remember our pilot, (Yes, I'm a yank, and yes, his {current pilot}actions are deplorable, let him stand up before some cameras NOW, before he's been told what to say and how to guard his emotions.), anyhow, remember our pilot who killed over 20 Italians on the gondola? Tried in a "military" court, and found not guilty of murder, etc, etc, oh yes, he did happen to either alter or try to alter the flight data, so we'll slap him on the wrist for that. No real penalty. :unsure:
You MUST understand the general principle:
Neither the U.S. government, nor any of its attendant military branchings can really admit to error in judgement. <_<
When is the last time the U.S. government went beyond, "accident" to explain someone&#39;s actions? :o
Since it&#39;s well-known that sociopaths can be anyone, what happens when one gets in a position where they have actual authority to kill, and the weapons are handed to him
with a blessing? There have to be some on each side of the conflict, unless America has a monopoly on them.
With over 100,000 troops in Iraq, I&#39;m sure there is least one man drooling with the anticipation of being able to actually kill someone. :ph34r: (And not in the context of the war) Legally&#33; In the right circumstances, he might even get a commendation&#33; ;)
I recall the interview years ago, televised, with a teenager, face hidden, which had the teenager explaining why he killed over and over. His response went something like, (and I&#39;m going on recall only, so I&#39;m paraphrasing, but the general idea is valid),
"When it happened the first time...it was just unbelievable...
and it just built from there. The power...you&#39;ve got the power...over life. And you can end it. Once you do it...the
high is just more intense than any drug...and you just need to...again...&#39;cause it&#39;s just so intense. And the need gets stronger, cause it gets more intense." :( :o
So. Brings it all back to consequences.
Our country will not allow this soldier to face the actual consequences of what he did. He may be punished...but he&#39;ll be shown the hate mail...he&#39;ll be shown the people angry at him...he&#39;ll learn that it "wasn&#39;t really his fault", even if he happened to be dreaming of an opportunity such as this, (I am NOT saying he was), and that&#39;s the American way.
I&#39;m not proud of it.
I didn&#39;t make it so, nor would I have made it so.
I close with a quote from Frank Herbert.

"The trouble with some kinds of warfare (and be certain the Tyrant knew this, because it is implicit in his lesson) is that they destroy all moral decency in susceptible types. Warfare of these kinds will dump the destroyed survivors back into an innocent population that is incapable if even imagining what such returned soldiers might do."
Teachings of the Golden Path

This is from page 71 of "Heretics of Dune"

p.s.-Even with all the focus on immediate gratification of the senses, :lol: and with the adrenaline normally reserved for flight or fight responses being expended on video games B) and with the derision piled upon anyone who even dares question what spouts from t.v., especially "CABLE T.V., which equals God for veracity :rolleyes: never mind the vast numbers of media channels and outlets and newspapers owned by just G.E and Disney alone :unsure:
2 of the big 3 networks, dozens of major cable networks, (History Channel, Discover, etc. etc :( )
I will not leave this country, because I love it. :P I love the principles it was founded upon, or at least the ones put forth as the principles. :)
But man...it is a big...big...big...fucking battle to get people to merely...educate themselves. :huh:
Not with t.v. :angry:
With their minds. :D
Educated people know this simple thing.
It is not what you claim you know that defines intelligence.
It is the ability to ask the proper questions. :ph34r:
If you&#39;re not taught to ask...you&#39;ll swalllow anything you&#39;re fed. :blink:

I&#39;m UK, and I am also getting a little tired of "blue on blue", personally I&#39;d be shooting back&#33;, I@m not certain but I have a nasty feeling that some of the US troops are National Guard, please prove me wrong if I am but I have friends in the NG, who are im Iraqu now&#33;