Al Gore And Olie North.

It was 1987! At a lecture the other day they were playing an old
news video of Lt.Col. Oliver North testifying at the Iran-Contra
hearings during the Reagan Administration.

There was Ollie in front of God and country getting the third
degree, but what he said was stunning!

He was being drilled by a senator; "Did you not recently spend close
to $60,000 for a home security system?"

Ollie replied, "Yes, I did, Sir."

The senator continued, trying to get a laugh out of the audience,
"Isn't that just a little excessive?"

"No, sir," continued Ollie.

"No? And why not?" the senator asked.

"Because the lives of my family and I were threatened, sir."

"Threatened? By whom?" the senator questioned.

"By a terrorist, sir" Ollie answered.

"Terrorist? What terrorist could possibly scare you that much?"

"His name is Osama bin Laden, sir" Ollie replied.

At this point the senator tried to repeat the name, but couldn't
pronounce it, which most people back then probably couldn't. A
couple of people laughed at the attempt. Then the senator continued.
Why are you so afraid of this man?" the senator asked.

"Because, sir, he is the most evil person alive that I know of",
Ollie answered.

"And what do you recommend we do about him?" asked the senator.

"Well, sir, if it was up to me, I would recommend that an assassin
team be formed to eliminate him and his men from the face of the
earth."

The senator disagreed with this approach, and that was all that was
shown of the clip.


By the way, that senator was Al Gore

Also:

Terrorist pilot Mohammad Atta blew up a bus in Israel in 1986. The
Israelis captured, tried and imprisoned him. As part of the Oslo
agreement with the Palestinians in 1993, Israel had to agree to
release so-called "political prisoners."

However, the Israelis would not release any with blood on their
hands, The American President at the time, Bill Clinton, and his
Secretary of State, Warren Christopher, "insisted" that all
prisoners be released.

Thus Mohammad Atta was freed and eventually thanked the US by flying
an airplane into Tower One of the World Trade Center. This was
reported by many of the American TV networks at the time that the
terrorists were first identified. It was censored in the US from all
later reports.

Rumsfeld has also openly called for the USA to invade Iraq to 'secure the Oilfields' all through the '90s. The last call for this reason, and giving the tragedy as a valid excuse was the DAY AFTER the WTC....when no one knew who was responsible.

Even the Whitehouse though know that the USA will not invade for oil, so the excuse since last year has turned to 'Human Rights', despite the 'Fact' that a lot more people have died in Iraq in the last 10 years due to sanctions than due to Saddam Hussain.

In fact, the 'Violent Death' statistic in Iraq is LESS than the USA....even including Saddams record.

Indeed, if you discount the death due to sanctions (ie Medical Aid etc), the Death Rate during the last 10 years is LESS than ANY decade during the 20th Century.....and that INCLUDES the decades that the UK were in charge of the area.


If you wish to post facts, why be selective?

Please, take it easy.

They are just crumbs that I thought were interesting.

BTW. I was posting that because I thought the U.S. censor is sly.

Why would you take this in a negative form.


BTW. I did not agree with the French statement. as I am from French Blood. My Grandfather was from Normandy. last name is POUPART . It was a quote that gave the entire coment. Isn't that what you want?

Quote:

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Originally posted by WebCheF@1 April 2003 - 00:40
Please, take it easy.

They are just crumbs that I thought were interesting.

BTW. I was posting that because I thought the U.S. censor is sly.

Why would you take this in a negative form.


BTW. I did not agree with the French statement. as I am from French Blood. My Grandfather was from Normandy. last name is POUPART . It was a quote that gave the entire coment. Isn't that what you want?

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Im sorry WebChef...Im tired.


Im also getting pissed off with all the anti-french post, by the same people that were raising hell about perceived anti-american post.

Ive seen plenty of posts (and posted some myself) that were anti US Government...but havent seen any that were cririsising the American PEOPLE....who are generally the same as others....ie Piss, shit, work, raise kids etc etc

The anti-French post though...is anti-French PEOPLE.....not Government. Thats not politics, its personal. :(

Quote:

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Originally posted by Rat Faced+1 April 2003 - 01:46--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Rat Faced @ 1 April 2003 - 01:46)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--WebCheF@1 April 2003 - 00:40
Please, take it easy.

They are just crumbs that I thought were interesting.

BTW.&nbsp; I was posting that because I thought the U.S. censor is sly.

Why would you take this in a negative form.


BTW.&nbsp; I did not agree with the French statement. as I am from French Blood. My Grandfather was from Normandy.&nbsp; last name is POUPART . It was a quote that gave the entire coment.&nbsp; Isn&#39;t that what you want?

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Im sorry WebChef...Im tired.


Im also getting pissed off with all the anti-french post, by the same people that were raising hell about perceived anti-american post.

Ive seen plenty of posts (and posted some myself) that were anti US Government...but havent seen any that were cririsising the American PEOPLE....who are generally the same as others....ie Piss, shit, work, raise kids etc etc

The anti-French post though...is anti-French PEOPLE.....not Government. Thats not politics, its personal. :( [/b][/quote]
Heh,

I say we just get a few mags of Chandon and some geese meat, stale crackers and get realy HAPPY.

Salut&#39;

Quote:

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Originally posted by Rat Faced@1 April 2003 - 01:33

In fact, the &#39;Violent Death&#39; statistic in Iraq is LESS than the USA....even including Saddams record.

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RatFace-
I would like to concentrate on this sentence from your post; no mal-intent here, just a couple of questions:
Who compiles such statistics in Iraq, and how do you assess the accuracy of these statistics? I&#39;m guessing-I&#39;ll admit-but I&#39;d think the government publishes those stats. Do you think the numbers include any of the victims of Saddam&#39;s domestic policies, or do you believe he is of an exclusively beneficient nature towards his people? Have we been totally misled about his treatment of his own people?
I just visited the "Islamicity" website; while it is evocative, and, I suppose, truthful to many, (I pass no judgement on this point) I would be willing to bet a close examination would reveal some sort of propoganda. ALL news sources have SOME bias, even those that are "more or less" believable.

This whole section of the lounge consists of ground that has been tilled and re-tilled until it is fallow. There are no more fresh topics, discussions, points, or views-this is leading to numbness.

What do you think?

Its the estimate placed by Amnesty International against the official US figures ( I never even thought of looking for "Official" Iraqi figures...that might be interesting, I wonder if they actually keep count?...........and that just goes to show that Im as biased as anyone else here :( )


I agree, both figures are subjective.


Most in the USA are murder/accident/self defence etc by the individual; most in Iraq are murder by the State.

Im not trying to justify anything....

Im trying to demonstrate the futility of relying on one source of information...

People are "Told" one thing, in such a way that it appears even worse or better than it really is.

The "Death" figures quoted by the UK Government (and US Government) in their estimates included those that died as a result of Sanctions....ie as a result of UK and US actions, not Iraq&#39;s.

Of course, there is also the argument that its Iraq&#39;s actions (or lack of action) that made the UK/US enforce the sanctions.......from such moral dilema&#39;s come a Phsyciatrists high salary.



Please do not take it as an attack on either of the anti or pro war faction.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Rat Faced@1 April 2003 - 18:43
Its the estimate placed by Amnesty International against the official US figures ( I never even thought of looking for "Official" Iraqi figures...that might be interesting, I wonder if they actually keep count?...........and that just goes to show that Im as biased as anyone else here :( )


I agree, both figures are subjective.


Most in the USA are murder/accident/self defence etc by the individual; most in Iraq are murder by the State.

Im not trying to justify anything....

Im trying to demonstrate the futility of relying on one source of information...

People are "Told" one thing, in such a way that it appears even worse or better than it really is.

The "Death" figures quoted by the UK Government (and US Government) in their estimates included those that died as a result of Sanctions....ie as a result of UK and US actions, not Iraq&#39;s.

Of course, there is also the argument that its Iraq&#39;s actions (or lack of action) that made the UK/US enforce the sanctions.......from such moral dilema&#39;s come a Phsyciatrists high salary.



Please do not take it as an attack on either of the anti or pro war faction.

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Don&#39;t worry-I won&#39;t take any of it wrong.

Just flailing about; we all have an inherent imperative to "know " what&#39;s going on, and every tool available to us for information is flawed, biased, etc.
The internet fails us in this endeavor.
I was thinking it won&#39;t be long before practical experience and good judgement are of no use in forming the opinions that society demands we hold. What then?
Current evidence would seem to indicate many people, stripped of an informed opinion, are falling back on some long-buried or latent prejudices.

thx rat faced loved the concept of getting official Iraqui figures&#33; Lost the original thread but just wanted to compliment you on your rememberance of the French Navy&#39;s part in the American War of Independance. Nice one mate, next time you&#39;re in the toon the beers are on me

just to show I am unbiased and in the interest of historical accuraccyt,we(UK) gassed a hell of a lot of Kurds in the 20&#39;s, different world maybe, but some do remeber, its not that long ago&#33;

Quote:

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Originally posted by leecheskicked@1 April 2003 - 22:45
just to show I am unbiased and in the interest of historical accuraccyt,we(UK) gassed a hell of a lot of Kurds in the 20&#39;s, different world maybe, but some do remeber, its not that long ago&#33;

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I think that&#39;s part of my point: Every nation comes to the table with extra/excess historical baggage. I always preach the necessity of historical awareness and perspective in order to inform judgement and opinion, but most people just try to beat you over the head with "sins of the past" when they have no practical bearing on current events.

I love reading these posts. Not the violence they report, but the information within, all of which is taken with a grain of salt.
I&#39;m a yank, and think our country&#39;s social structure is behind the sloppiness and the psychotic behavior. :o
I&#39;m very saddened by the deaths, whether they be of combat origin :( or asinine behavior origin :angry: or slavish ties to enhanced killing machines with all too human quirky computer glitches origin. :huh:
I&#39;m sorry, truly, to you in the UK. :( And also to those in the dictator&#39;s country, :( and also Iraq...the other dictator&#39;s country. :blink: :huh:
I wish accountability were forthcoming beyond a sterile press conference and some blood money.
But then, why would there be? :unsure:

Quote:

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Originally posted by longterm@2 April 2003 - 06:05
I love reading these posts. Not the violence they report, but the information within, all of which is taken with a grain of salt.
I&#39;m a yank, and think our country&#39;s social structure is behind the sloppiness and the psychotic behavior. :o
I&#39;m very saddened by the deaths, whether they be of combat origin :( or asinine behavior origin :angry: or slavish ties to enhanced killing machines with all too human quirky computer glitches origin. :huh:
I&#39;m sorry, truly, to you in the UK. :( And also to those in the dictator&#39;s country, :( and also Iraq...the other dictator&#39;s country. :blink: :huh:
I wish accountability were forthcoming beyond a sterile press conference and some blood money.
But then, why would there be? :unsure:

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Fatalism?
All we can do (unless elected to office, so as to play the game) is root through the rubbish, bringing our own faculties to bear upon the problem.

I suspect, about 627.3 feet down, we will find the first grains of truth.

Grab a shovel, if you&#39;re willing.