Sikh School To Be Built In Slough, England.

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I am not sure that I'm too happy about this new school thats gonna be built for the sikh comunity.
I don't have any problem with other nationalities coming into England to live, however, I believe that anyone coming to live in my country should live as I live.

There are laws being passed in France forbidding school children from wearing headscarves and turbans to school... what do we do.. we build a special school for them.

The proposed school is gonna cost us tax payers £6million.... the Sikh community have to contribute too.. £600,000.... is that a fair contribution?

There are many points to discuss here.. lets hear some of your views on this subject.

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Saw this at another forum. I was intrigued by the post. I know it is proper etiquette to put my own opinion first, but I'm just curious to see where this thread travels here in comparison to where it did in its original forum.

as long as they don't change any laws or require me to adjust.

the fact that my school was catholic and funded as a catholic (religious) school, i believe gave me an above average quality of education.

if sikhs want to discriminate to give their community a better education i dont see a problem.

I think it's perfectly acceptable to have schools to cater to different cultures with the proviso that they teach the basic required curriculum of the country they are located as well as their own classes.

Seems to me another case of religion dividing the community.
If we had no religion in schools, we could all integrate and perhaps live together more harmoniously.
Even better, ban all religion and the world could perhaps live in harmony, or is that just me dreaming of Utopia?

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I believe that anyone coming to live in my country should live as I live.

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do they have to live exactly as he lives? but what if a Sikh doesn't like football, page three of The Sun, and Westlife? :O

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Originally Posted by rf9rider

Or is that just me dreaming of Utopia?

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1) Yes, you're thinking of Utopia.
2) Utopia is impossible unless the public/society in question is brianwashed or just plain dumb (cough cough 51% cough :whistling )
3) There are many more criteria needed to create Utopia, not just "no religions"

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Originally Posted by rf9rider

Seems to me another case of religion dividing the community.
If we had no religion in schools, we could all integrate and perhaps live together more harmoniously.
Even better, ban all religion and the world could perhaps live in harmony, or is that just me dreaming of Utopia?

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If it isn't religion, it would be race, if not race, it would be.........

it would be what busyman?

But why are general tax dollars going to fund a Sikh school? Private interest schools, whether they be religious or exclusive, should be privately funded.

To publicly fund a private interest institute like a country adapting to it's immigrants, not vice versa.

If the Sikhs wish to create a "special school", they may freely use their own money to do so.

Agreed. They do it here, there are many sikh schools but they are all privately funded and built.

Why shouldn't the government help fund the school? The sikh community still has to raise 10% which I think is fair enough. As long as they teach the national curriculm I see it being no different than publicly funded catholic schools.

And there's 10,000 sikhs in Slough alone, I imagine some of them pay taxes...

Leave the moaning to the Sun readers. :glare:

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Originally Posted by hobbes

But why are general tax dollars going to fund a Sikh school? Private interest schools, whether they be religious or exclusive, should be privately funded.

To publicly fund a private interest institute like a country adapting to it's immigrants, not vice versa.

If the Sikhs wish to create a "special school", they may freely use their own money to do so.

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Well we don't do things like that in England, thankfully.

l live in Windsor, which is next to Slough; the whole area is rapidly expanding and more than this one school is needed. These children need an education wherever they go to school. If they went to any local school the government would still have to pay. This new school is only to be 80% Sikh anyway, and they are paying 10% of the costs. It is also a primary school, when they leave they will be going to local high schools. Catholic schools in England get special grants, why shouldn't Sikhs?

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Originally Posted by UKResident

Well we don't do things like that in England, thankfully.

l live in Windsor, which is next to Slough; the whole area is rapidly expanding and more than this one school is needed. These children need an education wherever they go to school. If they went to any local school the government would still have to pay. This new school is only to be 80% Sikh anyway, and they are paying 10% of the costs. It is also a primary school, when they leave they will be going to local high schools. Catholic schools in England get special grants, why shouldn't Sikhs?

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Well said. Though I was under the impression that Slough had enough schools, at least that was the argument of some people in authority against the idea of the sikh school.

i think catholic schools have to be 90% catholic

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Originally Posted by Withcheese

Well said. Though I was under the impression that Slough had enough schools, at least that was the argument of some people in authority against the idea of the sikh school.

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l'm talking about the whole area, not just Slough. As you know, London doesnt stop now until it gets past Reading, everywhere it's possible to build a house out this way they are building them.

You could say there were enough schools in Slough if you believe 35 pupils per class is OK. As for the arguments, l think the people who were against the school would have said anything.

That is my point, we do have different cultures (US and UK). Private interest groups should be privately funded in my eyes. Religion and public funded schools should be separate.

Do we need a Luthern school, a Muslim school, a Catholic school, ad infintum.

Or should we just provide a place for all children to go an learn and get to know people from different backrounds. Seems ridiculous to me to divide the little boys and girls up into separate schools.

I simply am full stop opposed to any religion being granted my money to build their schools. I cannot envision volunteering my money to pay for brainwashing and encouraging something that promotes the division of a community, rather than uniting it.

I remember the Jewish kids would go to a private Hebrew school on the weekends or at night. That is the way it should be.

Small children are very plastic in their mindsets. If you grow up with a variety of people, you just see them as friends and classmates. To attempt to integrate them later is a much tricker deal.

BTW, sign me up for that publically funded "Creationism, new Earth" school.

we had a few RE lessons about other religions and awareness, then i came out atheist.

as long as they aren't saying all other religions are wrong and promoting racism. what's the problem?

does the average school cost less than £6mil?

Im very near to slough :D

Anyway i don't really mind, when the government spends £200 million (or is it more) on the millenium dome i think the sikhs deserve some money. Plus what are the odds that the sikh tax payers in the UK give more than £6mil?

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Originally Posted by cpt_azad

it would be what busyman?

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I assumed he was pointing out that humans will never get along with each other - you're going to have to go alongway back in time to find a time when the human world was at peace if it has ever been.

As for the school, I don't see harm in it. There are already Christian schools so fairness says other faiths should be able to set up their own schools if they wish. Political correctness will force the Sikh school to accept various pupils, as it does for the existing religious schools in the UK.

Hobbes

i agree with your opinion about the state funding religious teachings, however every school, in the Uk at least, has to teach the basic curriculum and the state usually pays for that in schools where parents are not charged. The sikh comunity in this case has to contribute a certain amount financially for the building and i would imagine would have to raise money for other things once the school opens. This area has a large amount of sikhs and they may not necessarily be immigrants as the original poster of the topic on the other forum seems to be suggesting. This community pay their taxes like everyone else so a "grant" from the state to build and run the "national education standard" side is well within the bounds of even the American constitution (IMO) ...the rest is up to the school to raise funds.

I don't get why public money should go to private interest schools.

What does religion have to do with "deserving money" to build a school.

We can argue about what the government spends money on, but my point is that, as a society, we seem to think that a role of government is to provide an educational system.

You learn to read and write and 'rithmatic.

Education has nothing to do with religion. Teaching religion is NOT a goal of the educational system and therefore is not a requiste function of the government.

If I were to move to England, would I be entitled to a public funded school because I want a "Creationism" school? Hell no, I moved to England. I either learn deal with their school system, tutor my children at home, privately fund a school with like minded individuals, or go elesewhere.

This has nothing to do with Sikhs' per se, it has to do with what we think the government is entitled to provide.

They need provide a system of education. Religion can be introduced in the context of social studies, but should no specific religion should be indoctrinated into the children.

Religious choice is a right of personal freedom and should be pursued in ones personal time. It has no role in the educational process, and as such, would make it a perk for interested individuals and not a duty for the government.

The government does not provide Sikh bridges, Sihk spaceships, Sihk Natural parks, or Sihk hospitals. It provides bridges, spaceships, Natural parks and hospitals for everyone, schools should be no different.

You want a special interest school, you fund it.

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Originally Posted by JPaul

Hobbes

If our Government is willing to fund these schools and the UK citizens who have replied are content with that like, then the Govt is following our wishes.

You have seperation of Church and State like, we do not . Maybe that's the difference.

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You think this is a good idea? Really? So anybody who moves from anywhere is entitled to your money because they want a school?

One lives and learns.

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Originally Posted by vidcc

Hobbes

i agree with your opinion about the state funding religious teachings, however every school, in the Uk at least, has to teach the basic curriculum and the state usually pays for that in schools where parents are not charged. The sikh comunity in this case has to contribute a certain amount financially for the building and i would imagine would have to raise money for other things once the school opens. This area has a large amount of sikhs and they may not necessarily be immigrants as the original poster of the topic on the other forum seems to be suggesting. This community pay their taxes like everyone else so a "grant" from the state to build and run the "national education standard" side is well within the bounds of even the American constitution (IMO) ...the rest is up to the school to raise funds.

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See if I get your point Vidcc.

Sikhs pay for school in the form of tax and therefore derserve a school. They want to take the basic school and sort of "upgrade" it to a special Sihk school.

Where I grew up, schools were supported by local city property taxes. If someone wanted to go outside thier district, they would have to pay for it. Many of our school employees brought in their own kids as a loophole as we had a fine public school.

Let me suppose that the Jewish people in the area said to the State that they were willing to put up additional money to convert it into a Jewish school. The State said fine, well give you what you pay in property taxes and you foot the rest.

Meanwhile, my school is now a Jewish school. By the nature of public funding, I would have the right to go there, but in practice it might be a bit uncomfortable. Also my parents would not want me going there.

Where is my school now. Does the government need to build one for me?

I think it a bad idea for the government to get involved in this type of endeavor.

Well then why doesn't the government change the law. Allow the turbans. All that'll happen is that the sikh kids will stand out more than anyone else. But there should be a decent amount of them, so they won't stick out too much. This way you won't have to pay higher taxes.

i think you're mixing france and england up



hobbes what are you talking about? they aren't converting a school to be religious, they're starting it from the ground up. now if they were converting it i would have a problem.

To continue what I was saying to Vidcc:

Big picture, I think as humans living together in a country, we should integrate and not separate. Prejudice only flourishes in the setting of ignorance and that is what separate schools will promote.

This is primarily important in gradeschool as this is where many of our beliefs are laid into our still malleable clay and set forever. This is where allegiance to town, country, religion, sports team, and race are formed, and often done so without our concious knowledge.

As Jpol has his faith, no logical discussion can shake it, as it is set within his clay-long dried. Why I still consider myself a St. Louisian even though I haven't lived their for 15 years. It is where I was formed. For you soccer fans, would you change alliance in favorite soccer team due to moving to a new location or a witty argument? Hell no, you live and die with every match.

Such import years for all the children to get know each other. Rather than needing to rely on what adults tell them what other people are like, they know because they have meet them and grown up with them.

I would far rather you hate because I am an ass, rather than simply because I am white and you were told that white people are evil.

Such an opportunity lost.

But I can see how some would disagree with me. They want their kids to grow up and believe what they do. They want them to believe the party line, and they fear for the loss of faith or belief such open experience might bring.


As a relevant example, consider 9/11. Had I grown up with Muslim children, I'm sure I would have had a much better understanding of what a "typical muslim" is like. When 9/11 occured I would have a deep understanding that those that did this were insane individuals and not "muslims". As it is, we go into Afghanistan and we are told what the Taliban are like, and that they are Muslim. We get a very distorted view of what the "average" Muslim is about as we have no relevant context to compare it to.

Certainly, an all Muslim school in my community might draw misdirected and ignorant rage because no one really knows them. Integrate, don't separate.

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Originally Posted by TheDave

i think you're mixing france and england up



hobbes what are you talking about? they aren't converting a school to be religious, they're starting it from the ground up. now if they were converting it i would have a problem.

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You are missing the point. I was giving an abstract example to make a point.

Sikh school, Catholic school, Luthern school, Monk School, Creationism school, Star Trek school.......

Where does it stop?

I think the answer is already in place in the UK. No National curriculum, no funding. :)

Hobbes
British school are not funded in the same way as US schools
The point was building a new school to cater for the needs or wishes, not convert or upgrade and existing school. In the UK ALL SCHOOLS must teach the state applied national curriculum unless it is a Sunday school or after school establishment.. It is law that all children are taught this national curriculum and a parent can go to prison for failing to ensure their child adheres to this law....this doesn't mean they have to pass the exams, just have to be taught.
Private schools receive state grants purely to meet the states requirements, not to teach specific religious theory and they are controlled by the state and inspected to make sure they meet the set standards.
there is no mandate to have a school for specific religious theory teaching in every area, however as I suspect was the case in the thread topic there was a need in that area and a business plan would have been submitted and considered on its merits.
Just as the state provides grants for sports they do for education

To summarise...the state does not fund specific religious teaching but does supply grants to various "causes" if an acceptable case is made.

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Originally Posted by JPaul

The Catholic School I have had experience of have had non-Catholic pupils. I am not aware if said Sikh school will be open to non-believers. I would like to think so like, whether or not any non-Sikh wishes to attend is another matter.

I have no problem with this, as the man said they are entitled to a state education anyway. If there is a sufficient interest in the school to justify the cost then no problem.

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My understanding of Sikhs is that they are quite tolerant (their religion is a Vulcan mind meld of Hindu and Muslim beliefs as I understand it).

I think the way we fund schools is different to the US. There are already Catholic and CofE schools. To qualify for funding they must include the National Curriculum and are subject to inspection. Note is also taken of their performance. Funding can be withdrawn if they do not meet their obligations and I believe this has happened to a couple of small Islamic schools.

Slough
Come friendly bombs and fall on Slough!
It isn't fit for humans now,
There isn't grass to graze a cow.
Swarm over, Death!


Come, bombs and blow to smithereens
Those air -conditioned, bright canteens,
Tinned fruit, tinned meat, tinned milk, tinned beans,
Tinned minds, tinned breath.

Mess up the mess they call a town-
A house for ninety-seven down
And once a week a half a crown
For twenty years.

And get that man with double chin
Who'll always cheat and always win,
Who washes his repulsive skin
In women's tears:

And smash his desk of polished oak
And smash his hands so used to stroke
And stop his boring dirty joke
And make him yell.

But spare the bald young clerks who add
The profits of the stinking cad;
It's not their fault that they are mad,
They've tasted Hell.

It's not their fault they do not know
The birdsong from the radio,
It's not their fault they often go
To Maidenhead

And talk of sport and makes of cars
In various bogus-Tudor bars
And daren't look up and see the stars
But belch instead.

In labour-saving homes, with care
Their wives frizz out peroxide hair
And dry it in synthetic air
And paint their nails.

Come, friendly bombs and fall on Slough
To get it ready for the plough.
The cabbages are coming now;
The earth exhales.

:lol:

Is that a Betjeman?

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Originally Posted by Biggles

:lol:

Is that a Betjeman?

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Indeed, Biggles!

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Originally Posted by hobbes

Saw this at another forum. I was intrigued by the post. I know it is proper etiquette to put my own opinion first, but I'm just curious to see where this thread travels here in comparison to where it did in its original forum.

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I havent read the rest of the thread, so i dont know how its digressed..

I have no problem with this as long as they are following the National Curriculum like all other State Funded Schools.

If they wish to contribute extra, like Catholic Schools do or CofE supported Schools do, in order to teach their Religion or extra stuff too... good for them.

I have noticed repeatedly that the Church Supported schools around this part of the country at least, appear to have better educated and better behaved kids...

...until they hit their teens at least, then they seem to go even further overboard than the other kids :blink:

I wonder if this is because the purely State Funded schoolkids are rebelling all the way through, instead of saving it all up :unsure:

Go brown ppl :)

I think in a diverse culture, encouraging separtion is a bad idea. School is a place to meet and develop social skills, equal in importance to reading and writing.

Religious teaching can be taught at home and in religious instituitions. We don't have religion based government funded, housing, hospital care, roads or national parks, why are schools an exception.

Government money should encourage unification, not segregation.

Could I get approval to have an all Aryan School with the government picking up the tab. Sweet.

This is my opinion, if the people in the UK are happy, that is their choice, but one I disagree with.

Here is a post that I have edited from the orginal thread. The author touches on the subject of what obligation a country has to adjust to the special needs or desires of immigrants:

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Our way of life is rare and under constant attack, and our ability to sustain it is precarious. Our kind of lifestyle - with its stability, prosperity, and ease - is rare, and in demand the world over, and a considerable wave of people everywhere want to leave their own country to come here to start a new life. Indeed, this is the bond that unites our population!

New Canadians should be encouraged to integrate and become part of our country, and should be encouraged to vote and to contribute to defining how our culture and its characteristics should develop. We do not need, however, distinct pockets of populations that are united by foreign religious, language or cultural ties! These pockets can – and do – concentrate to dominate local populations to further political and other agendas that can be very contrary to our own values.

As an example of such domination, I went into a local bank the other day (just outside Toronto), and NO-ONE at the wickets spoke English, or indeed, French – only Cantonese (or, maybe, Mandarin)! The teller called someone from the back that came and could speak English, but the point is clear; this is a sub culture that is well-defined enough to be utterly and alarmingly separate from mainstream society!

While I hope that we shall always have a strong tolerance for all sorts of diversity, the government should not be in the business of [artificially] supporting and encouraging it by giving it special funding and other support of any kind ! By doing so, it is creating future sources of possibly very severe trouble! So, for example, citizenship qualification should include both the ability to speak and write one of our official languages and having some [minimal knowledge] of our political system! Indeed, the “landed immigrant” status’s being extended indefinitely should at least require demonstrating the ability to speak and write an official language of the country!

While I hope that we shall always have a strong tolerance for all sorts of diversity, the government should not be in the business of [artificially] supporting and encouraging it by giving it special funding and other support of any kind ! By doing so, it is creating future sources of possibly very severe trouble! So, for example, citizenship qualification should include both the ability to speak and write one of our official languages and having some [minimal knowledge] of our political system! Indeed, the “landed immigrant” status’s being extended indefinitely should at least require demonstrating the ability to speak and write an official language of the country!

From this viewpoint, it is axiomatic that the government should not be funding schooling to further distinct language, religious, or cultural interests, and indeed, should not be giving special tax relief or consideration to those opting to support such schooling, and so on. Doing this is lunacy, however well-intentioned!

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I don't want the US to become little pockets of foreigners, clustered in their rufuge communities, going to their own schools and living amongst themselves, but one country, inhabited by many people of diverse origin, living and working together.

School is a great place to start.

Hobbes

I understand what you mean but by and large the second and third generation of immigrants tend to assimilate (Borg style) into the host community. They still keep a little of that original culture but the dominant culture tends to be a force difficult to reckon with and a source of much worry to the older generation. The schools will keep some of that culture but they will also look outwards to the wider community.

Did the US not have Jewish, Irish, Polish and Italian communities? It took a while, but eventually they assimilated with just vestigal remnants of their origins showing (very evolutionary :whistling )

One interesting thing i find about the USA which i didn't mention because the original post was british is that many Americans have this same "if they come here they should live as we do" attitude...yet is that what Americans did when "they came here" ? The USA was rebuilt on changing the country...not intergrating.

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I don't have any problem with other nationalities coming into England to live, however, I believe that anyone coming to live in my country should live as I live.

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I would also repeat another point i made... that is... why is the assumption that the people of this community are immigrants?

America is considered a christian country yet it has a huge muslim population...most of which are not immigrants. Does anyone here suggest that those muslims should live as christians do?
Is the poster arguing that if they ARE immigrants they should convert to his religion and should abandon all knowledge of their past and their religious beliefs?

The arguement over state funding from the original poster seems to have less to do with the fact that the school is a religious school and more to do with racism.

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Originally Posted by Biggles

Hobbes

I understand what you mean but by and large the second and third generation of immigrants tend to assimilate (Borg style) into the host community. They still keep a little of that original culture but the dominant culture tends to be a force difficult to reckon with and a source of much worry to the older generation. The schools will keep some of that culture but they will also look outwards to the wider community.

Did the US not have Jewish, Irish, Polish and Italian communities? It took a while, but eventually they assimilated with just vestigal remnants of their origins showing (very evolutionary :whistling )

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But why support it? These communities within the US were NOT healthy to the country as a whole. Why not learn from history? Also, I think we are getting an entirely different type of refugee. Many are professionals and well funded who want to re-create a little piece of their homeland abroad.

edit: I added the word "NOT", which makes a wee difference.

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Originally Posted by vidcc

Is the poster arguing that if they ARE immigrants they should convert to his religion and should abandon all knowledge of their past and their religious beliefs?

The arguement over state funding from the original poster seems to have less to do with the fact that the school is a religious school and more to do with racism.

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The original poster left many roads for subsequent posts to travel. Whatever hits your radar the hardest.

I think you may be right about the first poster, but I think he more an awkward adolescent than a racist.

The second poster I quoted was a completely different individual (sorry) who goes by Wee Willy. He lives in a mixed race marriage, like yourself.

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I am an Irish Canadian living in Canada's Toronto, a city that probably has no serious contender as the most racially and culturally diverse city on the planet! I totally love this racial diversity; indeed, my wife is a member of a "visible minority", and I am not a racial bigot of any kind - I have even been known to like the occasional American!

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I thought Willy was more articulate in his expression.