Changing The Way The World Works.

Okay. Here's a list of interesting books.
1. "Conscious Evolution" by Barbara Marx Hubbard
2. "Islam: Beliefs and Observances" by Caesar E. Farah, Ph.D.
3. "Documents of American History" by Henry Steele Commager
4. "The Power of the Modern Presidency" by Erwin C. Hargrove
5. "Constitutional Law of the Federal System" by C. Herman Pritchett
6. "Growth and Welfare in the American Past" by Douglass C. North
7. "The Jesus Myth" by Andrew M. Greeley
8. "Atlas Shrugged" by Ayn Rand
9. "Markings" by Dag Hammarskjold
10. "Being and Time" by Martin Heidegger
11. "None Dare Call It Conspiracy" by Gary Allen (with Larry Abraham)
12. "It's A Conspiracy!" by The National Insecurity Council
13. "Constitution: Fact or Fiction-The Story of the Nation's Descent from a Constitutional Republic through a Constitutional Dictatorship to an Unconstitutional Dictatorship" by Dr. Eugene Schroder (with Micki Nellis)
14. "The Right to Privacy" by Ellen Alderman and Caroline Kennedy
15. "An Illiberal Education" by Dinesh D' Souza
16. "The End of Racism" by Dinesh D' Souza
17. "The Death of Common Sense" by Phillip K. Howard
18. "Dianetics" by L. Ron Hubbard
19. "Dismantling the Cold War Economy" by Ann Markusen and Joel Yudken
20. "Who Will Tell the People: The Betrayal of American Democracy" by William Greider
21. "The Rise And Fall of the Third Reich" by William L. Shirer
22. "Armageddon: The Russians in War and Revolution" by Bruce Lincoln (plus his other...historical efforts)
23. "1984" by George Orwell
24. "Fahrenheit 451" by Ray Bradbury
25. "Animal Farm" by George Orwell
26. "Nature's End" by Whitley Strieber and James Kunetka
27. "Excellence: Can We Be Equal and Excellent Too?" by John W. Gardner
28. "The Meaning of the 20th Century: The Great Transition" by Kenneth E. Boulding
29. "Situation Ethics: The New Morality" by Joseph Fletcher
30. "Power and Prosperity: Outgrowing Communist and Capitalist Dictatorships" by Mancur Olson
31. "A Force Upon the Plain: The American Militia Movement and the Politics of Hate" by Kenneth S. Stern

Now, some of these I've read over the years. However, a lot of them I've read within the last 8 or so months. (Not exclusively, but they are the ones with the most relevant information.)

Discussing the topics brought forth in these books may prevent you from being invited to the next beer bash in your town :( , but it may help alter this world for the good. :lol:

Religion is too passive, with its focus on the eternal afterlife, instead of the focus upon: What can we do NOW?
How can we help the physical world NOW? How can I ensure my child's child will not live in a negative utopian vision? How can corporations which focus on the bottom line realize the ever proven tenet "Short term expediency always fails in the long term?" :unsure:

Violence is wrong. :angry: The world can not be changed for good through violence. It simply won't wash. :(

So. All these people at this site are very willing to toss in their opinions.

Let me have 'em! :P

HOW DO WE LET THE RULING PEOPLE KNOW THAT WE DO NOT APPRECIATE THEIR PLANS FOR US, (exploitation), :( AND HOW DO WE DO SO IN A WAY WHICH DOES NOT MAKE US DEAD ? :unsure: (which, of course, is a bit worse than exploitation) <_<

Ideas?
Come on.
I know it&#39;s a quixotic question, but I have to ask.
I&#39;ve been reading for over 30 years. I&#39;m 35 now.
It&#39;s time the evidence, opinions and thoughts are brought forth, in a mass media type of way.
I know the war is real. I know the world is real.
I&#39;m only a drummer, B) (unrecorded as of yet), and writer, ;) (unpublished so far), and those are what I want as careers.
My hobby, brought about by what I&#39;ve read in down time, is "saving the world". :huh: (Is that an effing crock, or what?)
Really, though. I&#39;ve read so many books which talk about the future, and it&#39;s so important that we get beyond what we consider the BIG questions now.
How can anyone even be concerned about race? As I&#39;ve said in my other post, our blood is red the world entire. That&#39;s freakin &#39;IT&#33; End of discussion&#33; There are genuises of every race, <_< there are retarded folks within every race. :( There are sweet people in every race, :D and there are homicidal sociopaths in every race. :blink: That...is...IT&#33;
If you&#39;re concerned about your precious "heritage", than become literate beyond signing your name to a check buying beer to numb your mind and educate yourself. :angry:
Racism is a very powerful tool in the hands of people seeking to turn and sway public opinion. :ph34r:
Now, with racism out of the way, maybe a little focus on real threats. Hmm?
Anyone? Anyone?

Someone out there give me a place to look for information.
Websites?
How to motivate major corporations, such as oil companies
and GE to fundmentally overhaul how they operate?
How to motivate us, or rather, the U.S. leaders, to turn the society upside down so that in 100 years our descendants will not have to be happy with a 40 year life span with raging aggressive cancers common and most of the ecosystems destroyed?
How to get people back in space?
I&#39;m not a tech, and hindsight may be 20/20, but I sure as hell would not have allowed the space shuttle to go into orbit knowing some stuff had fallen from the frigging shuttle&#33; Geez&#33; It&#39;s only people&#39;s lives and the space program at risk&#33;
Of course, now the &#036; that would&#39;ve gone to the space program can be rerouted to........FIGHTING EVIL TERRORISTS&#33;
Of course. Of course.
(I wish the hell I could write something under 50 fucking paragraphs.)

Did you forget to take your lithium? You need to stop hyperventilating and FOCUS&#33; You can&#39;t solve the worlds problems in a post.

Nobody will read a post over 50 lines, so hit hard us with a specific topic and maybe we can give you some input.

BTW, a stitch in time saves nine.

Violence has a role. I just don&#39;t see the United States becoming an independent country by saying "Seriously King George man, let us do this country thing, it would be so cool. Peace out."


When one person, or group exploits another, sometimes violence is the only solution. This being said, I am not convinced that the war in Iraq is justified. George and his posse better find some serious shit to back up their accusations, the American and British troops need to conduct themselves in a dignified manner, and there should be a rapid removal of military control by non-Muslims when the war is over.

This war will really be judged retrospectively.

Just to let you know, I had a friend who served in Desert Storm. He actually processed Iraqi POWs. These POW&#39;s told him that Hussein had told them that if caught, they would be tortured to death AND that Americans were CANNIBALS.

This surfaced again tonight as the Americans captured a city in Iraq. As they entered, the town was fearful as they were told by the Bathe party that all males btw 18 and ?, would be killed.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by longterm@2 April 2003 - 05:22

Religion is too passive, with its focus on the eternal afterlife, instead of the focus upon: What can we do NOW?

---

Passive&#33; I beg to differ. I think religion is not passive enough.
Quite the opposite. Much aggression has been a direct result from it.
I agree their focus is on the afterlife, but that is not necessarily a bad
thing if a prerequisite to enter the heavens is to do good deeds.
Do on to others.....Well you know the rest&#33;&#33;&#33;

By the way, that post of yours is long. :beerchug:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by longterm@2 April 2003 - 05:22
Okay. Here&#39;s a list of interesting books.
1. "Conscious Evolution" by Barbara Marx Hubbard
2. "Islam: Beliefs and Observances" by Caesar E. Farah, Ph.D.
3. "Documents of American History" by Henry Steele Commager
4. "The Power of the Modern Presidency" by Erwin C. Hargrove
5. "Constitutional Law of the Federal System" by C. Herman Pritchett
6. "Growth and Welfare in the American Past" by Douglass C. North
7. "The Jesus Myth" by Andrew M. Greeley
8. "Atlas Shrugged" by Ayn Rand
9. "Markings" by Dag Hammarskjold
10. "Being and Time" by Martin Heidegger
11. "None Dare Call It Conspiracy" by Gary Allen (with Larry Abraham)
12. "It&#39;s A Conspiracy&#33;" by The National Insecurity Council
13. "Constitution: Fact or Fiction-The Story of the Nation&#39;s Descent from a Constitutional Republic through a Constitutional Dictatorship to an Unconstitutional Dictatorship" by Dr. Eugene Schroder (with Micki Nellis)
14. "The Right to Privacy" by Ellen Alderman and Caroline Kennedy
15. "An Illiberal Education" by Dinesh D&#39; Souza
16. "The End of Racism" by Dinesh D&#39; Souza
17. "The Death of Common Sense" by Phillip K. Howard
18. "Dianetics" by L. Ron Hubbard
19. "Dismantling the Cold War Economy" by Ann Markusen and Joel Yudken
20. "Who Will Tell the People: The Betrayal of American Democracy" by William Greider
21. "The Rise And Fall of the Third Reich" by William L. Shirer
22. "Armageddon: The Russians in War and Revolution" by Bruce Lincoln (plus his other...historical efforts)
23. "1984" by George Orwell
24. "Fahrenheit 451" by Ray Bradbury
25. "Animal Farm" by George Orwell
26. "Nature&#39;s End" by Whitley Strieber and James Kunetka
27. "Excellence: Can We Be Equal and Excellent Too?" by John W. Gardner
28. "The Meaning of the 20th Century: The Great Transition" by Kenneth E. Boulding
29. "Situation Ethics: The New Morality" by Joseph Fletcher
30. "Power and Prosperity: Outgrowing Communist and Capitalist Dictatorships" by Mancur Olson
31. "A Force Upon the Plain: The American Militia Movement and the Politics of Hate" by Kenneth S. Stern

Now, some of these I&#39;ve read over the years. However, a lot of them I&#39;ve read within the last 8 or so months. (Not exclusively, but they are the ones with the most relevant information.)

Discussing the topics brought forth in these books may prevent you from being invited to the next beer bash in your town :( , but it may help alter this world for the good. :lol:

Religion is too passive, with its focus on the eternal afterlife, instead of the focus upon: What can we do NOW?
How can we help the physical world NOW? How can I ensure my child&#39;s child will not live in a negative utopian vision? How can corporations which focus on the bottom line realize the ever proven tenet "Short term expediency always fails in the long term?" :unsure:

Violence is wrong. :angry: The world can not be changed for good through violence. It simply won&#39;t wash. :(

So. All these people at this site are very willing to toss in their opinions.

Let me have &#39;em&#33; :P

HOW DO WE LET THE RULING PEOPLE KNOW THAT WE DO NOT APPRECIATE THEIR PLANS FOR US, (exploitation), :( AND HOW DO WE DO SO IN A WAY WHICH DOES NOT MAKE US DEAD ? :unsure: (which, of course, is a bit worse than exploitation) <_<

Ideas?
Come on.
I know it&#39;s a quixotic question, but I have to ask.
I&#39;ve been reading for over 30 years. I&#39;m 35 now.
It&#39;s time the evidence, opinions and thoughts are brought forth, in a mass media type of way.
I know the war is real. I know the world is real.
I&#39;m only a drummer, B) (unrecorded as of yet), and writer, ;) (unpublished so far), and those are what I want as careers.
My hobby, brought about by what I&#39;ve read in down time, is "saving the world". :huh: (Is that an effing crock, or what?)
Really, though. I&#39;ve read so many books which talk about the future, and it&#39;s so important that we get beyond what we consider the BIG questions now.
How can anyone even be concerned about race? As I&#39;ve said in my other post, our blood is red the world entire. That&#39;s freakin &#39;IT&#33; End of discussion&#33; There are genuises of every race, <_< there are retarded folks within every race. :( There are sweet people in every race, :D and there are homicidal sociopaths in every race. :blink: That...is...IT&#33;
If you&#39;re concerned about your precious "heritage", than become literate beyond signing your name to a check buying beer to numb your mind and educate yourself. :angry:
Racism is a very powerful tool in the hands of people seeking to turn and sway public opinion. :ph34r:
Now, with racism out of the way, maybe a little focus on real threats. Hmm?
Anyone? Anyone?

Someone out there give me a place to look for information.
Websites?
How to motivate major corporations, such as oil companies
and GE to fundmentally overhaul how they operate?
How to motivate us, or rather, the U.S. leaders, to turn the society upside down so that in 100 years our descendants will not have to be happy with a 40 year life span with raging aggressive cancers common and most of the ecosystems destroyed?
How to get people back in space?
I&#39;m not a tech, and hindsight may be 20/20, but I sure as hell would not have allowed the space shuttle to go into orbit knowing some stuff had fallen from the frigging shuttle&#33; Geez&#33; It&#39;s only people&#39;s lives and the space program at risk&#33;
Of course, now the &#036; that would&#39;ve gone to the space program can be rerouted to........FIGHTING EVIL TERRORISTS&#33;
Of course. Of course.
(I wish the hell I could write something under 50 fucking paragraphs.)

---

Longterm-
Hobbes is right-I&#39;ve probably read 1/4 of the books on your list, and decided long ago (I believe after Dinesh D&#39;Souza) that I would overload if I continued.
I think you&#39;re having that problem right now.
You&#39;re obviously very intelligent-Hobbes and I are, too, but doing it like you&#39;re trying to do is much too difficult in this medium. Could you pick one or two things for us to kick around?
By the way, I would move "Atlas Shrugged" to the top of your list, for several reasons: 1) It provides the ultimate explanation of the capitalist system and it&#39;s impetuses, and does it in a favorable fashion, 2) It goes a long way toward explaining America, and 3) Anyone who has the fortitude to read it and the brains to understand it will have "earned" the right to read the rest of your list.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by ClubDiggler+2 April 2003 - 06:17--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (ClubDiggler @ 2 April 2003 - 06:17)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--longterm@2 April 2003 - 05:22

Religion is too passive, with its focus on the eternal afterlife, instead of the focus upon: What can we do NOW?

---

Passive&#33; I beg to differ. I think religion is not passive enough.
Quite the opposite. Much aggression has been a direct result from it.
I agree their focus is on the afterlife, but that is not necessarily a bad
thing if a prerequisite to enter the heavens is to do good deeds.
Do on to others.....Well you know the rest&#33;&#33;&#33;

By the way, that post of yours is long. :beerchug: [/b][/quote]
YES, YES&#33;

The significance of religion, even when considered as a generic influence which sways everybody and everything, is ignored in the U.S. by those who argue about events (it is, after all, PC).

The part religion plays in the Mideast is not really addressed by the pundits; they view Islam as dark and mysterious and unexplainable (at least to the hoi polloi), contributing only to the "fundamentalist fervor and extremism" of it&#39;s practitioners.

In short, they don&#39;t understand it; they don&#39;t care to, and they&#39;re too lazy to try.

j2 - what the hell was that about? i didnt even read the topic post&#33;

but religion&#39;s only use is to group people together and segregate each other even more. it is a cultural and traditional [mockery?] that bands people together and is otherwise useless.

are u guys religious? :huh:

(j2 i havent gotten around to changin my randy johnson sig. for some reason everythinh i post wont show. i think its the picture server.)

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Z@2 April 2003 - 08:04
j2 - what the hell was that about? i didnt even read the topic post&#33;

but religion&#39;s only use is to group people together and segregate each other even more. it is a cultural and traditional [mockery?] that bands people together and is otherwise useless.

are u guys religious? :huh:

(j2 i havent gotten around to changin my randy johnson sig. for some reason everythinh i post wont show. i think its the picture server.)

---

You&#39;re right, I need to simplify that post:

1) The Mideast is a region in turmoil, historically due to religious/sub-sect differences.

2) Mideastern countries are individually and collectively insular as regards their religion(s).

3) This turmoil is compounded by social/developmental/economic imbalance.

4) In it&#39;s reporting, the media ignores the overriding concern (religious differences) in order to emphasize everything else. ("Who would suffer an in-depth discussion of religion on a news program?").

I believe in God, Z, but I&#39;m not "born-again"-I got it right the first time.

Any of you guys read "stupid white men"?

Quote:

---

Originally posted by WeeMouse@2 April 2003 - 19:25
Any of you guys read "stupid white men"?

---

Not me, cuz I aren&#39;t one.

Can you capsulize it for us, WeeMouse?

J2k4,

You believe in God ( the Christian one or some other religion), a god (a creator who has yet to be accurately described by any specific religion) or the possibilty of a creator?

I will just give you my spin factors:

1) I would love for there to be a God.

2) I am agnostic, I believe that religions are created by men, who then create their version of God. I firmly believe that organized religions are fairy tales, but I still cannot disprove the existence of a creator. So I look, listen, learn and hope to find a solution where I can find peace. I really envy those who are pure in their beliefs, I would pay any amount of money to truely believe that eternal happiness was awaiting me after physical death. Sometimes it&#39;s good to have Down&#39;s syndrome.

3) I live my life doing unto others and so on, assuming that any god will see that I am a person of integrity who respects and values the lives and needs of others.

I understand the role of Religion because it provides hope to the hopeless. A salvation in a world which is quite cruel.

I, fortunately, am doing ok. I know this because I can get pissed (mad not drunk) about my hometeam losing a baseball game, as if that was important or something.


Can I give some constructive criticism? Eagle is too big, can&#39;t that be your avatar? I am a proud American, too. Quoting prior posts is not always necessary. People who don&#39;t read through posts to understand what you are referencing are usually not worth listening to.

Please feel free to give me any constructive feedback, I am not easily offended.

Wish granted; I will not quote you.
I will go at this piecemeal because it&#39;s late and I don&#39;t know if I&#39;ll finish answering before I have to move on to other things.

I believe in MY God. I, like you, thought for years that I was agnostic but managed to think the 10 Commandments were a good set of guidelines. I have not practiced my Christian religion since I was confirmed, etc., but I got to a point in my life when I just got tired of arguing with myself over actualities-I decided I would practice within myself, get what I need from it, and give what I can to it, on my own. &#39;Nuff said.

You seem to have your shit together on a lot of fronts; I like the way you use reason. I can live with the disagreements and still enjoy the give and take, because that&#39;s the way I look at all of it-not a fight, by any means. I have to admit I do occasionally enjoy taking a chunk out of someone here, but only if they deserve it, and only if they ask for it. This forum is like everything else to me; put something worthwhile in, get something of value out.

Back to religion for a sec-even if it IS just a comforting "nonreality" to someone, it&#39;s proving it&#39;s worth.
You seem to be on the same track I was on: living in "just in case" mode. I hope it leads you to where I am-I think it would work for you.

And I agree about my eagle. I&#39;m looking for an appropriate replacement, but don&#39;t know which way I want to go yet.

Good chat.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by hobbes@2 April 2003 - 19:17
J2k4,

You believe in God ( the Christian one or some other religion), a god (a creator who has yet to be accurately described by any specific religion) or the possibilty of a creator?

I will just give you my spin factors:

1) I would love for there to be a God.

2) I am agnostic, I believe that religions are created by men, who then create their version of God. I firmly believe that organized religions are fairy tales, but I still cannot disprove the existence of a creator. So I look, listen, learn and hope to find a solution where I can find peace. I really envy those who are pure in their beliefs, I would pay any amount of money to truely believe that eternal happiness was awaiting me after physical death. Sometimes it&#39;s good to have Down&#39;s syndrome.

3) I live my life doing unto others and so on, assuming that any god will see that I am a person of integrity who respects and values the lives and needs of others.

I understand the role of Religion because it provides hope to the hopeless. A salvation in a world which is quite cruel.

I, fortunately, am doing ok. I know this because I can get pissed (mad not drunk) about my hometeam losing a baseball game, as if that was important or something.


Can I give some constructive criticism? Eagle is too big, can&#39;t that be your avatar? I am a proud American, too. Quoting prior posts is not always necessary. People who don&#39;t read through posts to understand what you are referencing are usually not worth listening to.

Please feel free to give me any constructive feedback, I am not easily offended.

---

i agree to an extent. religion gives hope and belief, but its something that cannot be backed up anyways.
why wouldnt u want to believe in something that can be proven, like natural science? doesnt the existence of god contradict all the theories of physics and such? evolution, no? does prayer help in life, or is it a waste of time? i think its useless. i read a quote in the garbage post by masta yodax "i realized i was god when i was praying and then realized i was talking to myself." its funny.

also , do u believe in predeterminism? this was also in philosophy class. huge debates, cuz u can make choices, but are those choices your fate? ok, does god determine what u do? come on now, everybody has a mind of their own.

prayer gives hope, but is it useful? its it worth the time and energy to put hope and belief into god? or should we spend more time on the things that have a direct influence on our lives, like our actual lives?&#33;&#33;
i think the latter should work&#33; :P

[QUOTE]Can you capsulize it for us, WeeMouse? [QUOTE]

Well I haven&#39;t fininshed it, but It seems good&#33;


It&#39;s by Mike Moore, and is his opinion on America basically - how George W Bush got "elected", racism and stuff like that.

Being Scottish, i don&#39;t know how accurate his claims about some things are true.

He does write a good chapter on Catholics and protestants in N. Ireland though&#33; :D

Z-
At the point science and religion seem irrevocably divergent, a little thing called faith can bring things back into sync-I&#39;m afraid I don&#39;t have an argument to support my contention. What I have instead is........faith.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by WeeMouse@3 April 2003 - 12:45

It&#39;s by Mike Moore, and is his opinion on America basically - how George W Bush got "elected", racism and stuff like that.

---

This alone would rescind any claim to legitimacy, though it may have entertainment value for some.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by j2k4@3 April 2003 - 12:03
Z-
At the point science and religion seem irrevocably divergent, a little thing called faith can bring things back into sync-I&#39;m afraid I don&#39;t have an argument to support my contention. What I have instead is........faith.

---

good for u. many people do, and im not against it. but based on previous conversation with you, i would think u would be [intelligent] enough to base your beliefs on something more concrete. im not sayin people are idiots, im just saying i thought u seemed like a person with common sense and believed in more moderm, provable ideas that are inevitably more useful. i dunno...

Hobbes- You seem to be wollowing in a sea of doubt and cynisism, and for that you have my sympathy. You have good ideas but you also seem to have a number of preconceptions. Just observation, I could be wrong, but I am simply interpreting your responses and statements for myself.

As far as god goes, I would look to my intellectual superiors... such as Steven Hawkings... his theories seem to point towards a creative force using Science. I myself, being somewhat pagan, beleive in many gods. Some are benign, others are violent. Many are upset forces claiming to be a god but are simply a bitter mealevolent presence. Even the ten commandments say thou shalt have no other gods before me. This leads me to conclude there are other gods, just do not worship if you want to follow that one...

That being said, I worship nothing but beleive in some weird shit.

Faith fails me and it is what I have seen and experienced that leads me to beleif. Read the "Univers in a Nutshell" or "The book of Nothing" for some insight into that... I will browse the book list at the beginning of this post to see what I have and have not read later. Ignore me or discount me if you will, but a long list of book does not tell me what you think. So I skipped it. A long list of books tells me you are looking for something to think.

Not going to even touch this :ph34r:
This conversation has been around since......since............well, since before any of us were born&#33; B)

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Z+5 April 2003 - 02:14--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Z @ 5 April 2003 - 02:14)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--j2k4@3 April 2003 - 12:03
Z-
At the point science and religion seem irrevocably divergent, a little thing called faith can bring things back into sync-I&#39;m afraid I don&#39;t have an argument to support my contention. What I have instead is........faith.

---

good for u. many people do, and im not against it. but based on previous conversation with you, i would think u would be [intelligent] enough to base your beliefs on something more concrete. im not sayin people are idiots, im just saying i thought u seemed like a person with common sense and believed in more moderm, provable ideas that are inevitably more useful. i dunno... [/b][/quote]
I AM intelligent enough, Z-so much so, in fact, that I have found a way to resolve what you see as conflict, and as a consequence, enjoy both. You may not see any reason for doing it-but I do. By way of explanation, if you are demanding same, suffice it to say I ignore any conflict or overlap; I simply "buy" both sides of that coin. I would say, "I baked the cake, therefore I have it; if I desire to partake of it, then I shall."

I don&#39;t expect you to get it, necessarily, but there it is.

okay then.

J2k4,

The way you express yourself is sometimes hard for me to understand. I don&#39;t doubt your intelligence, in fact, I am trying to use it to my advantage and learn something.

As this is a forum, the key is communication with others, most not having the same experience or training that you or I do. Knowing this, I alter my language so that the average person can access it.

It is not the words I have trouble with but your lexicon is that of someone who has studied philosophy or psychology.

Expressing yourself using specialized terms makes posting more efficient for you, but loses the common person. You had one line about "the ambient conditions, frequency and impetus re-enforcing the imperative", which I understand but damn, it hurts to read that stuff.

I like analogies, imperfect as they are.

Anyway, keep posting, but stop giving me icecream headaches. :blink:

Two points for you:

1) You stated that you can live with disagreements and enjoy the give and take. That is the golden nugget everyone should take away from all this. Sometimes the best learning comes when we are forced to logically explain our points of view. It is not about "winning" an exchange with another poster, but about what you can learn from it.

2) Just to clarify, I don&#39;t follow the 10 commandments to cover my ass, I remove the diety from religions and look at them as philosophy. I behave as I see is proper, I do not behave a certain way just in case a certain religion turns out to be right.


Insanebassman,

1) I shudder at the thought of being called a cynic. I am a skeptic. Huge difference.
2) I don&#39;t wallow, I wade.
3) I have certain "perspectives" based on experience, not preconceptions.

Overall, If you could flesh ourt your post a little, then maybe I can clarify myself. Your response is a little vague so I don&#39;t know where to start. But, then again, you are "insane". :D

Quote:

---

Originally posted by hobbes@5 April 2003 - 08:54
J2k4,Two points for you:

1) You stated that you can live with disagreements and enjoy the give and take. That is the golden nugget everyone should take away from all this. Sometimes the best learning comes when we are forced to logically explain our points of view. It is not about "winning" an exchange with another poster, but about what you can learn from it.

2) Just to clarify, I don&#39;t follow the 10 commandments to cover my ass, I remove the diety from religions and look at them as philosophy. I behave as I see is proper, I do not behave a certain way just in case a certain religion turns out to be right.

---

Hobbes-
Let me assure you I&#39;m not trying to score "points" or "win" an argument. I&#39;m learning from you, too.
I will admit, sometimes my desire for "the extra syllable" may make me difficult to understand-I have been made aware of this in other situations, but my reasoning is thus: Not being conversation, per se, (though we are "conversing") this correspondence is an exercise in written words, which, for me, emerge in a wholly different fashion. It&#39;s not helped by the fact I enjoy doing this-I think some things can only be fully expressed in a medium that allows for absorption and reflection. I know people who can and do actually speak as if they are writing, but unfortunately for you, I don&#39;t see them as often as I&#39;d like.

Just to clarify my mention of the 10 Commandments: I meant metaphorically; whatever distillation of experience provides your behavioral guidelines?
I used that specifically because they make sense and are easy to remember, not because they&#39;re religious in origin.

Sorry for quoting you-

I had missed your signature line before, it reminds me of a discussion I had in "AO for kids". Yes, it comes from the now archived Anarchy Online forum. The population base was not suitable for fruitful discussion, with a few notable exceptions.

If you go to anarchy-online.com (an online RPG, not a revolution) and search "hobbes" you can find this discussion about the levels of learning or competence. If you want to read others, ignore all those related to game play and look in the "social" forum. "Those blacks" is a good one.

This is not homework, just for fun if you care, just funny how we seem to think alike in some regards.

I still like my sig. there: "So shines a good deed in a weary world." A quote from Willy Wonka and the chocolate factory.

I know you are not trying to score points, that was for everyone else. If you are secure in yourself, you can withstand disagreement and use it as a tool for learning.

Never quote me again&#33;&#33;&#33; (chuckles to self) :lol:

On the other front, what I meant to say was that my posts are contructed to be readable to anyone with a simple mind. I will explain things which are somewhat subtle. Your posts sometimes remind me of that SNL skit about students camping out in hopes of seeing John Lennon, so they can learn from his wisdom.

He shows up and talks only in double talk. "You are because you aren&#39;t, understand?"
Horatio Saenz: "I think I understand?"
"Oh, do you UNDERstand, or do you OVERsit?"
Chris Kattan: "Oh, I get it, and that&#39;s just stupid".

Anyway, take care, and keep on posting.

Remember, Hobbes isn&#39;t just about serious things. He loves sports and will gladly post that Sandra Bullock is his female of choice.

From my favorite movie: " All work and no play make Jack a dull boy"&#33;

Eh I&#39;m just gonna jump in here with some thoughts/ideas ->Not practical at all btw:

• abolish the idea of 1 person speaking for (and often misrepresenting) millions of people. That does not mean that there should be no higher authority though. I&#39;m tending towards a system where everybody has a computer or electronic device at home, with the option to propose laws and laws get passed based on majority votes. No veto possible -> they suck&#33; Power for the people, by the people.
  
• Get rid of marketing as a tool to sell stuff. It is basically a colourfull way of inflating a products value, ie. lie about it, and eventually leads to disillusionment. That, or give everyone a FREE and GREAT education to differentiate between truth and lie.
  
• Some things in life should just be free. For example, basic things like education, incl. university and/or college, medicinal care. To have to pay for these basically creates a barrier to being intelligent/educated and healthy.
  
• Everyone should be sterilised at birth, and unsterilised when they choose to have children. Yeah I&#39;m one of those people that just hates using condoms ;) I also think that there&#39;s way too many young mothers, broken families, etc.
  
• Friggin&#39; legalise drugs&#33; Drug Policy today is controlled by rooms of conservative parents, who still think that 1 gram of hash costs &#036;1000 on the streets, and is as bad as crack-cocaine. Legalising drugs will make drugs much safer, reduce drug-related deaths, dependancy, and crime. Realistic Education about drugs should be included in any curriculum -> Drugs aren&#39;t bad, but they can be, if used improperly :P (I include cigs and booze in drugs btw).
  
• Find an alternative to oil, preferrably quickly. I sometimes think that car-manufacturers just sit on their ass and don&#39;t change to hydrogen, because 1. it&#39;s not neccessary 2. it&#39;s too expensive. The same delay happened with basic safety stuff like seatbelts.
  
• Move away from the short-term focus displayed in many countries. "If it doesn&#39;t bring money now, it&#39;s not worth investing in." Who knows how many world-changing innovations might have come along, if not for that way of thinking. The revolutionary stuff like airtravel and the Internet has come forth from long-term government funding, though sadly military. Then again &#39;Mobile Phones&#39; and &#39;Japanese Cars&#39; have not :)

These are, as I said, just some thoughts towards a better and drastically different society. Feel free to criticise or to add your thoughts, though don&#39;t bother using &#39;practicallity&#39; as an argument. My thoughts have a tendency to be &#39;out there&#39; sometimes :rolleyes: I also believe in a World-Nation btw, not in the supremacy of one nation or race above others.

On religion: I think the major factor that influenced it&#39;s disapearance is education, technology, science and freedom of the press. Most of these are not present in deeply religious, and often poor societies. The absence of alternatives or knowledge keeps faith strong, also faith in Today&#39;s society. Europe&#39;s society has also been largely influenced by christianity-> referring more to the moral aspect, and less the conservative aspect of religion. In a way, todays political leaders have become the Gods (charismatic, morally just, flawless, etc), which were worshipped in more primitive societies.

@longterm: You&#39;ve brought foward an interesting selection of literature. I&#39;ve read some, though certainly not all. I&#39;d like to suggest another book, called The World We&#39;re In by Will Hutton, and some of his other books. I thought this book was quite insightful about todays society, maybe a bit heavy on the America-Bashing though. If you&#39;re thinking about a revolution, I also find Nelson Mandela&#39; s Long Walk To Freedom a good start, particularly when reflecting on how difficult it is to change a country, or even the world. That is not meant to discourage anyone though &#33; :D Oh and finally, this is a website: http://awareness.kicks-ass.org/, run by a good friend of mine, with the premise of making people aware of all the BS in this world. It basically revolves around people posting news about current events. It started up last week, so it&#39;s in it&#39;s infancy, but I like the idea a lot.

Love, Peace and harmony to All (except for Saddam, Bush & Rumsfeld and all the other dictators of the Status Quo)

Wow.

Quote:

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j2k4 Posted: 2 April 2003 - 15:22
You&#39;re right, I need to simplify that post:

1) The Mideast is a region in turmoil, historically due to religious/sub-sect differences.

2) Mideastern countries are individually and collectively insular as regards their religion(s).

3) This turmoil is compounded by social/developmental/economic imbalance.

4) In it&#39;s reporting, the media ignores the overriding concern (religious differences) in order to emphasize everything else. ("Who would suffer an in-depth discussion of religion on a news program?").

I believe in God, Z, but I&#39;m not "born-again"-I got it right the first time.

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I have to say i strongly disagree with what you say a bout the middle east, it&#39;s like it is because of foreign powers, example Iran was progressing towards democracy until the CIA and the Shah Came along.

Foriegn Powers have long Meddled In the middle east one for oil and two fighting the communists.

People in these countrys suffered because of Western countrys minipulation.
Osama and Saddam were both supported By western countrys for short term goals and look where that got them.

On the issue of Religion and God, they both dont exsist and until alot of humans relise this and spend there time actualy helping change the world instead of praying to some cross/staue the world will stay the same.

Also Nationalism has alot to blame for and until Countries start sharing and not competing we will be stuck in this constant cycle.

A good website is http://www.indymedia.org it is alternative non-corporate news and has alot of decussion on topics such as this.
from that site you can go to a local Indymedia site if your country/state has one which most do, especialy the US .

Quote:

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Originally posted by junkyardking@6 April 2003 - 10:31

Quote:

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j2k4 Posted: 2 April 2003 - 15:22
You&#39;re right, I need to simplify that post:

1) The Mideast is a region in turmoil, historically due to religious/sub-sect differences.

2) Mideastern countries are individually and collectively insular as regards their religion(s).

3) This turmoil is compounded by social/developmental/economic imbalance.

4) In it&#39;s reporting, the media ignores the overriding concern (religious differences) in order to emphasize everything else. ("Who would suffer an in-depth discussion of religion on a news program?").

I believe in God, Z, but I&#39;m not "born-again"-I got it right the first time.

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I have to say i strongly disagree with what you say a bout the middle east, it&#39;s like it is because of foreign powers, example Iran was progressing towards democracy until the CIA and the Shah Came along.

Foriegn Powers have long Meddled In the middle east one for oil and two fighting the communists.

People in these countrys suffered because of Western countrys minipulation.
Osama and Saddam were both supported By western countrys for short term goals and look where that got them.

On the issue of Religion and God, they both dont exsist and until alot of humans relise this and spend there time actualy helping change the world instead of praying to some cross/staue the world will stay the same.

Also Nationalism has alot to blame for and until Countries start sharing and not competing we will be stuck in this constant cycle.

A good website is http://www.indymedia.org it is alternative non-corporate news and has alot of decussion on topics such as this.
from that site you can go to a local Indymedia site if your country/state has one which most do, especialy the US .

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Just for the sake of debate, I&#39;ll grant your claim of interference.

How do think the Mideast would look today absent international interference?
Would the borders be in different places? Would there BE any borders?
Would there be peace in the region?
Would Israel exist?
Without (specifically) Western interference, do you think the U.S.S.R. could have restrained itself from marching in and annexing the whole region (in the name of State Security), and appropriating the oil exclusively for it&#39;s own use?

If THAT had happened, we wouldn&#39;t be talking about this in an internet forum: it, and the technology which makes it possible, would also have been the exclusive domain of the (now-defunct, thanks to the U.S.A.) Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.