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Patriotism = Parochialism
In the past, I've had reservations about posting in this section, but I no longer give a damn what people might think of me and my cranky opinions.
This is a topic that's been percolating in my brain for quite a long time, and I guess its time to pour a cup of conversation coffee...
In the past, I've considered myself to be a global citizen first, and an Australian second.
However, earlier today in the Lounge, Hobbes brought out the nationalist in me, (definition 1) which got me thinking.
I'm going to kick off with some definitions.
(Thanks to dictionary.com)
Patriotism
1. Love of and devotion to one's country.
2. n : love of country and willingness to sacrifice for it [syn: nationalism]
Okay, and the definition of nationalism is...
Nationalism
1. Devotion to the interests or culture of one's nation.
2. The belief that nations will benefit from acting independently rather than collectively, emphasizing national rather than international goals.
3. Aspirations for national independence in a country under foreign domination.
Parochialism
1. Of, relating to, supported by, or located in a parish.
2. Of or relating to parochial schools.
3. Narrowly restricted in scope or outlook; provincial: parochial attitudes.
Provincialism
adj.
1. Of or relating to a province.
2. Of or characteristic of people from the provinces; not fashionable or sophisticated: “Well-educated professional women... made me feel uncomfortably provincial” (J.R. Salamanca).
3. Limited in perspective; narrow and self-centered.
And my point is?
I see all of these isms every time I read a paper or turn on the news.
they strike me as a thinly veiled xenophobia, or at the very least, apathy regarding anything that isn't locallized.
Not the kind of environment that could encourage a lasting global peace.
Is it possible for humanity to rise above all the fussin' an a-feudin'?
Is it too much to hope that all nations lay down thier flags and guns to work together, and all that tree huggin' hippy crap?
Does humanity attach too much importance to a piece of wind blown cloth and a patch of dirt?
Your responses and/or views please.
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Re: Patriotism = Parochialism
Ultimately...we humans are too close to the animal to be ready to eradicate the need to territorialise our space.
Most people do not think globally, they think about themselves and the continuation of their own way of life.
There is no real chance of humanity becoming united in planetary harmony until we meet people from other worlds, then we can play the same territorial game that makes us feel secure. Us and Them.
Until then....don't see it myself.
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Re: Patriotism = Parochialism
Quote:
Originally Posted by uNz[i]
Is it possible for humanity to rise above all the fussin' an a-feudin'?
Is it too much to hope that all nations lay down thier flags and guns to work together, and all that tree huggin' hippy crap?
Sadly no. :( As long as the attitude of 'What is mine is mine's and what is yours is mine's' is abound.
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Re: Patriotism = Parochialism
The kind of chauvinistic nationalism that is common to the modern era is relatively new historically and is probably no more than a passing phase politically.
However, one only has to the look at the way people are suspicious of the next village or the neighbouring county to see that tribes of humans are deeply territorial. It is unlikely that this trait is going to change anytime soon. There have in the past been those (kings, leaders and politicians) who have exploited this trait to considerable personal advantage - on the whole this has rarely been a good thing and it often leads others to fight fire with fire.
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Re: Patriotism = Parochialism
Sara - That "leave it to the aliens" thing is humankinds biggest cop out to date.
Anyway, it won't work for one of 3 reasons, 1.nerdy, 2.paranoid and 3. disbelieving
1. According to all the nerdy Sci Fi books and TV series I've seen, as long as we're fighting each other, the aliens won't deem us worthy of visiting. Therefore, catch 22.
2. Who's to say the Aliens aren't warlike too?
3. Aliens probably don't even exist.
Bottom line, looks like we'll have to do it under our own steam.
That's probably a good thing anyway. If you want something done right, do it yourself.
The "Us and Them" game brings about the exact opposite of security, which should be obvious to anyone with a brain in thier head. As does the "whats yours is mine too" game.
So why does such behaviour persist? Is it merely because one government wants to sell weapons to another government? This is the only reason I can see for continuing on as we have, and this scares me.
When it comes to having faith in people, I've found in most cases you can rely on the individual to do the right thing by thier fellow man.
So why is it when it comes to nations, you just know they'll do exactly the wrong thing 9 times out of 10?
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Re: Patriotism = Parochialism
Nothing happens overnight, nor even in a lifetime.
We will all probably be long gone before anything approaching true globalism comes to pass.
Perhaps it would be useful to point out any of the small signs that we are on the road to that end; apart from the most obvious one, that being the U.S. hasn't yet self-destructed...
Lest I allow my cynicism to get the best of me, I will point out that, in the very roundest of terms, the U.S. would prefer other nations to achieve "global" status aided and abetted by democratic nations, but with the impetus born of having "gotten there", by and large, of their own accord.
Even the largest, most powerful nations cannot merely confer such status by fiat-individual nations must "choose" the option, so to speak.
uNz[i]-
I am very much aware of your sense and perception of the parochial nature of statements made by the like of Hobbes (who wears his nationalist tendencies on his sleeve, the cad), but, if you and your computor were somehow magically transported to, say, the Sudan, you might feel the same about Australians.
It is one thing to believe others think themselves superior; it is quite another to accord them that belief absent their consent.
I believe firmly that many here think of me thus, and it pains me, believe it or not.
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Re: Patriotism = Parochialism
maybe it's cos i'm in england but i always thought patriotic people twats.
this isn't a dig at j2 but he does get caught up in it. when i see patriotic flag-wavers i just wanna punch em in the face, that includes twats waving the union
...uh-oh :unsure:
-------------------------edit--------------------------
so i got some biscuits and did some thinking.
i don't mind flag-waving. i don't mind national pride or national identity. what i hate is national elitism.
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Re: Patriotism = Parochialism
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDave
maybe it's cos i'm in england but i always thought patriotic people twats.
this isn't a dig at j2 but he does get caught up in it. when i see patriotic flag-wavers i just wanna punch em in the face, that includes twats waving the union
...uh-oh :unsure:
That is a pretty pathetic attitude Dave.
Why should pride in ones' country be a bad thing?
Being patriotic is not following and agreeing with everything your government does, being patriotic means believing in the core principles on which your country was founded- life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness and how well these principles are fulfilled.
For me, America has provided an opportunity to succeed and I am my own rate limiting factor. I am not censored, monitered or oppressed. I feel free to do as I please and I am grateful for such an opportunity.
Being patriotic sometimes means speaking out against your government if they are not fulfilling their job to provide what the Constitution decreed. In fact, in our own Constituition, it states that if the government does not provide what it was intended to, it is recommended that the people revolt against it.
I think you probably are irritated at those who wave the flag and kiss the soil and never even think to question the actions of their government. I'll join you in punching these people.
EDIT:Well then, just forget the above then. :lol:
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Re: Patriotism = Parochialism
maybe they should idiot proof posts on here
"are you sure you want to post this?"
ok
"really?"
yes
"i mean it is kind of silly"
post it
"oh well, your reputation..."
ok
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Re: Patriotism = Parochialism
Uniz,
I think Sara was referring to an actual overt alien encounter. It is only then that we will act as a unified planet. Our animal nature will make us work together to save our skins from the alien invasion.
Kind of like Iraq. People who ordinarily would be fighting one another, are working together to rid a common foe, the US.
I think Sara summed it up quite nicely. We are all animals who place our personal security first.
We may talk abstractly about "doing the right thing" and "everyone should just get along", but if you are asked to give up the things you take for granted (food, computer, toilet, electricity, car, etc) strictly for the sake of thinking globally and redistributing the wealth to those poorer areas, then you will see the the selfish animal emerge. Then you will see revolution.
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Re: Patriotism = Parochialism
Patriotism is refusing the offer of cheap tea from your colonial masters and betters. Then dumping the said tea in Boston harbour. :rolleyes:
@Hobbes sorry you did not win an Oscar for your part in 'I Wabbit'. :(
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Re: Patriotism = Parochialism
It is easier to unite when you uniting for something. This is very evident in the black community of America. If whites here were still acting the way they did from 60's and earlier then we'd be more tightly knit. Now some of my young brothas and sistas don't have a clue.
Common ground = unison
Many things get in the way of uniting like money, culture, etc.
For the record I am an American first, global citizen second.
Many Americans see their country as being the best place to live. They think the freedoms that they have outweigh the amount of crime they have to deal with.
America wants other countries to be like it as well.
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Re: Patriotism = Parochialism
Quote:
Originally Posted by Busyman
It is easier to unite when you uniting for something. This is very evident in the black community of America. If whites here were still acting the way they did from 60's and earlier then we'd be more tightly knit. Now some of my young brothas and sistas don't have a clue.
As an aside-
If you believe whites aren't acting as they did previously, why would your younger brethren need these clues you speak of? :huh:
Other than that, great post. :)
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Re: Patriotism = Parochialism
Quote:
Originally Posted by j2k4
As an aside-
If you believe whites aren't acting as they did previously, why would your younger brethren need these clues you speak of? :huh:
Sorry j but that's a dumb question.
You may as well say...
"Why is it necessary to teach history?"
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Re: Patriotism = Parochialism
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes
Uniz,
I think Sara was referring to an actual overt alien encounter. It is only then that we will act as a unified planet. Our animal nature will make us work together to save our skins from the alien invasion.
Kind of like Iraq. People who ordinarily would be fighting one another, are working together to rid a common foe, the US.
I think Sara summed it up quite nicely. We are all animals who place our personal security first.
We may talk abstractly about "doing the right thing" and "everyone should just get along", but if you are asked to give up the things you take for granted (food, computer, toilet, electricity, car, etc) strictly for the sake of thinking globally and redistributing the wealth to those poorer areas, then you will see the the selfish animal emerge. Then you will see revolution.
Precisely :)
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Re: Patriotism = Parochialism
A Man's A Man For All That
Is there for honest poverty one who hangs his head and all that?
The coward slave we pass him by we dare be poor for all that!
For all that! And all that! Our toils obscured and all that,
Their rank is but the guinniea's stamp, the man's the gold for all that!
But though on homely fare we dine wear hodden-grey and all that
Give fools their silks and knaves their wine; a man's a man for all that.
For all that and all that. their tinsel ,show and all that.
The honest man though e're so poor is king of men for all that.
See yond snob they call,'the lord' who struts and stares and all that
Though hundreds worship at his word he's but a goof for all that
For all that and all that; his ribbon,star and all that
The man of independant mind he looks and laughs at all that.
A Prince can make a belted knight, a marquis ,duke and all that
But the honest man's above their might,good faith he won't befall that
For all that and all that their dignities and all that,
His pith of sense and pride of worth are higher rank than all that.
Then let us pray that come it may as come it will for all that
That sense and worth o'er all the earth shall be the goal for all that
For all that and all that; its coming yet for all that,
That man to man the whole world o'er shall brothers be for all that
Robert Burns(1759-96)
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Re: Patriotism = Parochialism
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigboab
A Man's A Man For All That
Is there for honest poverty one who hangs his head and all that?
The coward slave we pass him by we dare be poor for all that!
For all that! And all that! Our toils obscured and all that,
Their rank is but the guinniea's stamp, the man's the gold for all that!
But though on homely fare we dine wear hodden-grey and all that
Give fools their silks and knaves their wine; a man's a man for all that.
For all that and all that. their tinsel ,show and all that.
The honest man though e're so poor is king of men for all that.
See yond snob they call,'the lord' who struts and stares and all that
Though hundreds worship at his word he's but a goof for all that
For all that and all that; his ribbon,star and all that
The man of independant mind he looks and laughs at all that.
A Prince can make a belted knight, a marquis ,duke and all that
But the honest man's above their might,good faith he won't befall that
For all that and all that their dignities and all that,
His pith of sense and pride of worth are higher rank than all that.
Then let us pray that come it may as come it will for all that
That sense and worth o'er all the earth shall be the goal for all that
For all that and all that; its coming yet for all that,
That man to man the whole world o'er shall brothers be for all that
Robert Burns(1759-96)
Thanks for that Boab. Wonderful stuff. :)
People are all fundamentally the same, no matter where in the world you may go.
We all breathe air, we all laugh and we all use the toilet.
So why do we still insist on creating divisions amongst ourselves based on points of philosophy, theology and mere geography?
Such conflicts are just a waste of life, potential and energy, and pointless to boot, imho.
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Re: Patriotism = Parochialism
Quote:
Originally Posted by uNz[i]
Thanks for that Boab. Wonderful stuff. :)
People are all fundamentally the same, no matter where in the world you may go.
We all breathe air, we all laugh and we all use the toilet.
So why do we still insist on creating divisions amongst ourselves based on points of philosophy, theology and mere geography?
Such conflicts are just a waste of life, potential and energy, and pointless to boot, imho.
Well if we had the same government and cultures then what you say would make sense.
That fact is everything isn't necessarily a division created for the purose of dividing. Some shit just boils down to clashes.
I might think British humor is not funny.
I might think Saddam Hussein treats his people like shit.
I might think your religion teaches evil things...
Such is life...
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Re: Patriotism = Parochialism
Quote:
Originally Posted by Busyman
.
America wants other countries to be like it as well.
This latter part I have never quite understood. Why would it matter?
As a Scot I feel a great sense of belonging - but I wouldn't push the bagpipes and kilt on others. :)
The sentiments expressed by Burns, however, stands good. A man is a man despite the perceived differences or airs and graces he may adopt. He was writing in the 1790s when slavery and serfdom were still common and his views were considered "radical" by some. Strangely, given the era, he was immediately popular in his home country despite his womanising and ridicule of the Kirk (perhaps because of them :whistling ).
This does not mean we all have to be the same though.
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Re: Patriotism = Parochialism
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggles
- but I wouldn't push the bagpipes and kilt on others.
Especially if your the one buying them...
That wasnt a dig at Scots btw.. it was a dig at the price of them
:dry:
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Re: Patriotism = Parochialism
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr JP Fugley
Cows around the world have pretty much the same attitude towards life and each other.
People do not.
Are we talking Bovine here JP? :rolleyes:
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Re: Patriotism = Parochialism
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggles
This latter part I have never quite understood. Why would it matter?
Very simple...there's less division.
Regardless of what some say, clashing cultures, religions, blahblahblah create division. Similarities = less clash.
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Re: Patriotism = Parochialism
PAtriotism is teh ghey. :01:
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Re: Patriotism = Parochialism
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr JP Fugley
People are not all the same, that is PC bunkum.
People from around the world have entirely different attitudes, whether one likes to accept it or not. One man's sexism is another man's normal way of life. One man's suicide bomber is another man's martyr. The list goes on and we all know it.
These similarities of which people speak - we all breath and eat and sleep and crap and procreate, so do cows.
Cows around the world have pretty much the same attitude towards life and each other.
People do not.
I think that people are people.
1. Security of personal space- this is my home home and no one can take it way.
2. Security of the individual- I am special/worthy and people value my opinion.
3. Security of sex- I am desired.
Sexism and other opinions are merely an opinion. One can secure oneself without an agreement on "sexism" an such. These are a societal appetizer, not something which an individidual needs to secure his place in society.
All people desire the same set of securities. How they actually achieve them and justify them are matters of regional or religious style.
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Re: Patriotism = Parochialism
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes
I think that people are people.
1. Security of personal space- this is my home home and no one can take it way.
2. Security of the individual- I am special/worthy and people value my opinion.
3. Security of sex- I am desired.
Sexism and other opinions are merely an opinion. One can secure oneself without an agreement on "sexism" an such. These are a societal appetizer, not something which an individidual needs to secure his place in society.
All people desire the same set of securities. How they actually achieve them and justify them are matters of regional or religious style.
We love it when you talk dirty.
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Re: Patriotism = Parochialism
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr JP Fugley
Sorry, I did not express myself very well.
In my view people's attitude towards other people is a matter of great import. It is also my view that this varies tremendously around the world. What I would see as sexism, or demeaning behaviour e.g. a woman walking 4 steps behind her husband and always wearing a veil, would be seen by others as perfectly normal. People's attitude, in the USA for example, is very independent of the state. However in other countries they are very obedient (for lack of a better word).
Sorry I'm doing a bad job of expressing again, I have been rather busy.
There are enormous cultural differences between people around the world and no matter what the causes are they do exist. People are not all the same, other than on a very basic, animalistic level.
We could of course all become the same, but then whose same should we go for. I quite like mine, which I believe is very similar to yours. However it is a fair bet that we are not members of a particularly large group, on a world population scale.
This is precisely why I view religion as devisive.
Relgion addresses the situation: "life is hard, life is cruel, but in the end, if I behave correctly, will things be "ok"?
So religions have sprung up, all over the planet, in order to appease this fear.
Since God does not sit visibly in the clouds above our realm and has no E-mail address, independent cultures have constructed rather arbitrary lore that describe who he is and what he desires of us.
Now that the world is more a global community, these regional interpretations cause conflict. The God one is brought up to fully believe in is contradicted by the God of another culture.
Can we abandon our God, can we compromise and decide on a global God? Absolutely not. Only our God is real, the rest are all just lost souls prying to an impotent God.
Religion is what separates us and causes hate, just the opposite of what it was intended to do.
People are animals, the ONLY difference being is that we know that we are going to die. It is this unique knowledge that makes us make up religions to ease our fear of death. Otherwise, we are just animals, desiring animal things.
People are people and are separated by religions that are based on a rather arbitrary belief in what God desires of us.
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Re: Patriotism = Parochialism
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes
This is precisely why I view religion as devisive.
Relgion addresses the situation: "life is hard, life is cruel, but in the end, if I behave correctly, will things be "ok"?
So religions have sprung up, all over the planet, in order to appease this fear.
Since God does not sit visibly in the clouds above our realm and has no E-mail address, independent cultures have constructed rather arbitrary lore that describe who he is and what he desires of us.
Now that the world is more a global community, these regional interpretations cause conflict. The God one is brought up to fully believe in is contradicted by the God of another culture.
Can we abandon our God, can we compromise and decide on a global God? Absolutely not. Only our God is real, the rest are all just lost souls prying to an impotent God.
Religion is what separates us and causes hate, just the opposite of what it was intended to do.
People are animals, the ONLY difference being is that we know that we are going to die. It is this unique knowledge that makes us make up religions to ease our fear of death. Otherwise, we are just animals, desiring animal things.
People are people and are separated by religions that are based on a rather arbitrary belief in what God desires of us.
You make that sound like religion is the end all be all of divisiveness. It is not.
TOO MANY things divide people. Culture, religion, race, skin color, wealth and lack of it, status, location, countr.....
If everyone was the same religion there would still be division.
If white supremacists wiped out the "other" races they'd would come up with a reason to fight themselves.(see above i.e. TOO MANY...)
The difference between people and animals is that we can ask "why". It does not boil down to "we know we are going to die." Children are not in touch with their inevitable demise until they ask "why".
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Re: Patriotism = Parochialism
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr JP Fugley
So all Atheists have the same beliefs, culture, social conscience. They are also devoid of hate.
That's an interesting position.
"Atheism" IS a religion. They have "faith" that God does not exist, they have no proof of this but they still believe it.
religion: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
But this is merely a specious deflection from my valid points before.
Religion divides people in our new global community.
As BM says, it is not the only thing, but it is the only thing that is not amenable to education. Divisions caused by racism or ethnicity are easily overcome when these people come to live and work together. "Oh, you have the same desires and aspirations as I do".
There are white supremists who will cling to their beliefs regardless any evidence put forth. These people are usually of the lowest socioeconomic group and it is this "supremist religion" which gives them the sense of self-worth. Yeah, I'm trash, but at least I'm white.
People are quite simple. They have the requirements of security as I described before. And when that security is not there, they just make stuff up about God or Whites being superior to Blacks, to delude their fragile psyches' and make things right.
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Re: Patriotism = Parochialism
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr JP Fugley
Can one believe in a negative and then call it a religion. I don't think so, however I sit to be corrected..
If I tell you that God does not exist and cannot under any circumstance exist, then that is a religion. A set of beliefs based on faith.
I find pure Athiests as ridiculous as literal Fundamental Christians.
I think in doubting the existence of Zarquon, you are more the Agnostic. Why do you believe that Jesus is the son of God and not that Zarquon is the Almighty? You don't even know why? You think one sounds silly and the other is a fact.
On one hand, without any proof what-so-ever you can fully accept your Catholic religion, then take the humorous attitude, "Well from where I'm sitting I see no evidence of Zarquon and his troupe of raging Zebras He, he". If you were raised in a Zarquonian family, in a Zarquonian town, you would probably but posting the exact opposite. "He He, those silly Catholics."
Well, from where I, sitting I see no evidence that Jesus is the son of God or Zarquons' zebras.
Faith based beliefs are arbitrary in regard to what they want to accept as true and rigid and they don't play well with others (people who think differently).
My bottom line is that people really are just people.
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Re: Patriotism = Parochialism
If religion is merely a set of values that one holds true based on an acceptance of views that one finds palatable then this encompasses too much. For example I support a particular sports team mainly because my Dad did and I was named after a couple of the players. I drive a specific vehicle because people have told me that they're safe and reliable. I have no idea if this is correct as I've little idea, or interest, in automobiles - I just accept it as I trust the people that have informed me.
A mad female American scientist truly believes that the pyramids were built using kites, the people around her also believe that this is so even tho' there is no evidence of this. I assist people with their finances - they blindly follow my advice and accept my word with no question (mostly :dry: ) but I'm not their God.
This is not religion. Just as Atheism isn't religion.
I can agree that the definition of the word can be thought of as encompassing these things but, really, religion is something that requires more than just a belief and an adherence to a set of values in which they have faith. That definition is much too broad.
Conventional religion, which I believe is central to this topic, is entirely different to following following a doctrine religiously - this is not central to this topic and is probably highly irrelevant.
Religious operations either get recognised by the country in which they function, or they do not. A lot of thought and deliberation goes into the process so for someone to assert that definition of a religious ethos is such a basic proceedure is patently guilty of oversimplification.
In my opinion religion has to involve the belief in the supernatural, at the very least. This precludes Atheism.
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Re: Patriotism = Parochialism
Quote:
Originally Posted by manker
If religion is merely a set of values that one holds true based on an acceptance of views that one finds palatable then this encompasses too much. For example I support a particular sports team mainly because my Dad did and I was named after a couple of the players. I drive a specific vehicle because people have told me that they're safe and reliable. I have no idea if this is correct as I've little idea, or interest, in automobiles - I just accept it as I trust the people that have informed me.
A mad female American scientist truly believes that the pyramids were built using kites, the people around her also believe that this is so even tho' there is no evidence of this. I assist people with their finances - they blindly follow my advice and accept my word with no question (mostly :dry: ) but I'm not their God.
Your interest in a sports team is based on a relationship to that team by virtue of a common name. That is not faith and support of a soccer team is not associated with a philosophy.
The car you drive is based on the recommendation of people you have confidence in. That is not faith, that is confidence. Faith would be placing the names of all available cars in a hat and randomly drawing one, knowing that God will guide your hand to chose the best one.
It is critical to understand that faith is fully vested belief without any form of external validation.
People that come to you for financial assistance follow your word as you have the training to best guide them. They don't question your judgement in the same way that patients don't tell a surgeon how to operate. That is what you have a diploma for. Now if you were to tell me you just sit on the street playing guitar for change and people just walk up to you and tell you to invest their money, that would be a different story.
This is not religion. Just as Atheism isn't religion.
I can agree that the definition of the word can be thought of as encompassing these things but, really, religion is something that requires more than just a belief and an adherence to a set of values in which they have faith. That definition is much too broad.
Religious operations either get recognised by the country in which they function, or they do not. A lot of thought and deliberation goes into the process so for someone to assert that definition of a religious ethos is such a basic proceedure is patently guilty of oversimplification.
In my opinion religion has to involve the belief in the supernatural, at the very least. This precludes Atheism.
The definition of "religion" provided before is not mine, but that of Merriam Webster. If you don't wish to consider Athiesm a religion, it does not matter a whit. I will gladly rephrase my wording, as I did in my prior post, to "faith based" sets of values or beliefs. I still think Athiesm does fit under "religion" because it addresses the supernatural, but if you don't think it is a religion, that is your choice and quite fine with me.
dfdfhga
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Re: Patriotism = Parochialism
Ah yeah, I remember the discusssion before on here regarding how faith is different to confidence. I don't necessarily subscribe to it tho'. For instance:
Christian folk may well believe in God because of the historical value of the bible - if the writers can accurately depict the pertinence of the Book of Dreams then they have confidence in the writers in accurately depicting Jesus' life. Thus Christianity isn't necessarily based on total blind faith.
This backs up my point that a religion doesn't fit the Mirriam Webster definition. It should also include a belief in the supernatural, at the very least.
Edit: The definition to which you refer does apply to following a doctrine religiously but cannot apply to conventional religion.
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Re: Patriotism = Parochialism
Quote:
Originally Posted by manker
Ah yeah, I remember the discusssion before on here regarding how faith is different to confidence. I don't necessarily subscribe to it tho'. For instance:
Christian folk may well believe in God because of the historical value of the bible - if the writers can accurately depict the pertinence of the Book of Dreams then they have confidence in the writers in accurately depicting Jesus' life. Thus Christianity isn't necessarily based on total blind faith.
This backs up my point that a religion doesn't fit the Mirriam Webster definition. It should also include a belief in the supernatural, at the very least.
Edit: The definition to which you refer does apply to following a doctrine religiously but cannot apply to conventional religion.
Faith is defined as belief without proof, the "total" and "blind" is implicit in the definition. I personally think that Jesus preached a philosophy which he felt came from God. Based on the Bible, I have some confidence that Jesus actually walked the Earth. However, documentation that Jesus existed to me is completely separate from the belief that he was immaculately conceived and was preaching the actual words of God. That is the leap of faith.
The world, the universe, our bodies are amazingly complex and it is fully understandable to me that people think someone created this and we are not an act of random chance. Given that the Earth has thousands of religions, all with differing views makes me confident that no one religion is correct and the others wrong. Particularly when each religion has followers of equal faith. Religions are man-made constructs to appease our fear of death.
Whether one decides that athiesm is a religion or not is immaterial to the point I was making.
All conventional religions and all those that live their life guided a by "faith" live in a rigid world that is not amenable to compromise, and that is a bad thing. You may not wish to view examples I have given as a "religions" because you have your opinion as to what the definition should be. I personally don't care to bother making a distinction between "equivalents" as it is the immutablilty of thought which I find troublesome, not the label one afixes to something.
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Re: Patriotism = Parochialism
Quote:
Originally Posted by JPaul
No, I am absolutely convinced that Zarquon does not exist, other than in the novels of DNA. So I am not a Zarquon Agnostic. As such, given your position then my absolute belief that he does not exist is a religion, in the same way. That's just pish.
I just find it so ironic that you can fully accept the Christian God and fully reject Zarquon and yet both are equally proven.
You are just acting as you were trained by your parents. I guarentee that you would be saying the same about your Christian had you grown up in a Zarquon state.
There is absolutely no objective criteria for your faith in your Christian God over Zarquon.
As I stated in the post above, if you don't wish to believe that Athiesm is a religion, that really has no bearing on the point I was making. It is like pecking at the crust, but ignoring the meat of the pie.
Athiests and Catholics suffer from the same rigidity of thought, thus they are equivalents to me. You can quibble labels if you wish.
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Re: Patriotism = Parochialism
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes
Faith is defined as belief without proof, the "total" and "blind" is implicit in the definition. I personally think that Jesus preached a philosophy which he felt came from God. Based on the Bible, I have some confidence that Jesus actually walked the Earth. However, documentation that Jesus existed to me is completely separate from the belief that he was immaculately conceived and was preaching the actual words of God. That is the leap of faith.
If faith is the belief without proof then I refer you to the people who ask me for advice, sure they know I have qualifications but they have no proof that I will be able to advise them properly on their problem. They go home with their minds put at rest because they are sure I'm going to deal with their affairs properly.
Their personal circumstances regarding their company at that particular time are unique and are not the same as any you'll find in a text book - they have faith in me and believe that I will. Yet I am not their God. This is the same with any service industry.
This is the same as Christians believing in the accuracy of the immaculate conception story because the same writers told them accurately of the Book of Dreams. They have seen some of the bible to be proven irrefutably, therefore there is a reason for confidence in the authors - if they saw and accurately recorded the exchanges between Joseph and the Pharaoh - why, the resurrection could also have been observed and recorded thusly.
The bible was accurate in that part, I have faith it will be accurate in this other part.
manker did work okay for me last year, I have faith he will do it okay again this year.
Where is the distinction?
The distinction is that I'm not supernatural and God is.
Hence religion must contain a belief in the supernatural.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes
The world, the universe, our bodies are amazingly complex and it is fully understandable to me that people think someone created this and we are not an act of random chance. Given that the Earth has thousands of religions, all with differing views makes me confident that no one religion is correct and the others wrong. Particularly when each religion has followers of equal faith. Religions are man-made constructs to appease our fear of death.
I quite agree. I am pointing out that faith is interchangable with having confidence in someone or something.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes
Whether one decides that athiesm is a religion or not is immaterial to the point I was making.
That is, though, what I took issue with.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes
All conventional religions and all those that live their life guided a by "faith" live in a rigid world that is not amenable to compromise, and that is a bad thing. You may not wish to view examples I have given as a "religions" because you have your opinion as to what the definition should be. I personally don't care to bother making a distinction between "equivalents" as it is the immutablilty of thought which I find troublesome, not the label one afixes to something.
That's just it, conventional religion has a totally different meaning to the definition you quoted earlier. That is my point.
I duno why I did that split up and in purple, hrm.
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Re: Patriotism = Parochialism
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Originally Posted by Mr JP Fugley
At least you have admitted that your "point" was pish, at least in your own way.
Oh and thanks for saying that all of my belief system is based on what my parents taught me, rather than me having thought a bit about it myself and came to my own conclusions. Remarkably condescending, even for your good self.
What of people who were born into atheistic households, but later decide in adult life that they believe in God, or even join a religion. Were they taught by their parents too.
Your arguments move between the specious and the sublime. However they are invariably well written and it's to your credit.
My point was, i think valid. People who are faith driven are inflexible because they believe in things which are simply made up and cannot be negociated. When people of different faiths have conflict there can be no search for middle ground, things are black and white. I find this type of thinking troublesome.
You merely wanted to quibble about the definition of words, which is a rather trivial issue. I think Atheism is a religion, as it address the God issue. Whether you think it is or not is immaterial to my point.
As for people who convert religions or who are born again. I really don't like to let the exceptions to define the rule.
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Re: Patriotism = Parochialism
Manker,
Probably most religious scripture are based in some sort of reality, and will contain some historical content that is real. The breech is whether one thinks that this is the work of God or man.
How does one objectively favor the stories in the Bible over all other religious texts?
Take Noah's Ark. If you examine that story it would not work. All the fish in the sea would die from dilution of the salinity,what did the animals on the ship eat for 2 years(?) and how did Noah live to be 500 years old? My Islamic co-worker tells me that according to the Bible,Adam and Eve were about 96 feet tall. If you understand mechanical engineering, you know that the very shape of the human body precludes this. The tallest man on record was Robert Wadlow at 8'11" and he basically could not support his giant body, dying at the age of 22.
Now, you may say that Noah's Ark is an allegory, but then that means you are allowed to look at the Bible and pick and chose what you think God meant by the inclusion of this story in the Bible.
I don't want to argue Bible stories because that has no point.
I just wonder how come it gets the credit for being the word of God and all the others are somehow wrong.
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Re: Patriotism = Parochialism
on the BIO channel right now is a documentary called "face to face". It is about the conjoined Shappell sisters Lori and Reba. They are joined at the head.
The reason I am writing about this is because one of them said something that hits the nail on the head when asked if they get along.
"We have no choice, we either compromise or hit a stalemate and move onto something else. I don't think people around the world realise that the reason they don't get along is because they choose it to be that way. If you take away that choice then perhaps there would be a better world"
She wasn't making a political statement, just a comment on the reality of her life situation.
Religious, political beliefs or differing cultures are not reasons for the way we interact with each other........ but they certainly may be excuses
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Re: Patriotism = Parochialism
Without religion the world would be shittier than it already is.
Regardless of what atheists believe about the strength within, those that are religious have that extra layer of conscience that an atheist does not.
That's logic for something illogical.
The time I got snuck on the basketball court what stopped me from waiting outside of one the fella's house at night and blowing his brains out?
It's easy for one, especially an atheist, to say, "I wouldn't because it's wrong."
When in an emotional state like I was what the fuck do I care?
There are many things you do wrong on any given day. Belief in God, in most cases, means you REALLY believe he is watching what you do and the bottomline is IT KEEPS MORE THINGS IN CHECK THAN WOULD BE KEPT IN CHECK SANS THE BELIEF.
People rightly so will complain about 9/11, Israel and Pakistan fighting, etc because it involves religious differences.
REALLY imagine an atheistic world.
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Re: Patriotism = Parochialism
Quote:
Originally Posted by Busyman
Without religion the world would be shittier than it already is.
Regardless of what atheists believe about the strength within, those that are religious have that extra layer of conscience that an atheist does not.
That's logic for something illogical.
The time I got snuck on the basketball court what stopped me from waiting outside of one the fella's house at night and blowing his brains out?
It's easy for one, especially an atheist, to say, "I wouldn't because it's wrong."
When in an emotional state like I was what the fuck do I care?
There are many things you do wrong on any given day. Belief in God, in most cases, means you REALLY believe he is watching what you do and the bottomline is IT KEEPS MORE THINGS IN CHECK THAN WOULD BE KEPT IN CHECK SANS THE BELIEF.
People rightly so will complain about 9/11, Israel and Pakistan fighting, etc because it involves religious differences.
REALLY imagine an atheistic world.
I'm actually insulted by the above comments. As one who does not believe in God or an afterlife, you will find that I act just as politely/morally as one doing so because they fear Gods' wrath. I don't need your "security blanket" and quite frankly, I'm terrified that you need one to keep control of yourself.
I understand that for a society to work we must have rules about interaction. If we all obey these rules I can be sure that my house will be mine when I get home. If society imposes laws and penalties, these can keep in line, as in Athiestic China.
Imagine a world in which we drop all the stories about exactly who God is and exactly what he wants and just go with a "God concept". It dictates that we are placed here by some God as a priviledge and we should treat the Earth and our fellow mankind kindly and fairly.
This would end all the bickering about manmade documents. As I stated before, the unitarian church already exists and allows people to focus on their union as humans one and allows the individual to define what God means to him.
Do I need devine intervention to come forth with a set of commandments to tell me right from wrong. No, not at all. If you are acting selfishly, you are not acting morally, simple as that. I mean when you read the 10 commandments, is any of them not obvious? Do you say, good thing we have a list or I would be lying and cheating and never thought it wrong?
But rather than just accept a less personal God concept, mankind seems to require a "cookbook" they can follow and when they die they will get exactly what the book states. Too many cookbooks can spoil the broth.