Intelligent design

[Busyman]

What has organised religion got to do with anything. The huge amount of evidence is there for all to see, according to the laws of physics, galaxies are further apart now and ... I'm not going to summarise it all.

It's not bullshit because the laws of physics aren't bullshit. If light takes longer to travel between two points now than it did previously, then it's because the two points are now further apart. Light hasn't speeded up. By seeing how galaxies are getting further away from us, we know that the universe is expanding.

You're ostrichising.

Then apparently the laws of physics have explained the beginning of universe.
That sounds like fact.

Very good I understand now. I wish scientists would stop calling it theory though.

Sure and if there was a Big Bang.

Thanks. That sentence was meant sound that way for I doubt I'd understand this intelligent being.

I just believe this being exists.

So basically you understand nothing but you're willing to put it all down to a 'creator'.

That's not only illogical - it's also a very lazy way of thinking. You can't handle the theories behind the big bang so instead you close off your mind and put it all down to a creator.

Great stuff. At least we know your way of thinking and to be quite frank - you're welcome to it.

Cool. Lazy thinking is...."well it just happened".

You're explaination of my way of thinking is idiotic. Who the fuck said theories can't be handled? I believe theories can lead to further scientific study. However, they are still theories and people draw conclusions which are not so.

The Big Bang theory may be bullshit. The Bang could have been started by an intelligent being that may not fit into your statistical analysis nor your petri dish.

Relating to the topic however, this should not be taught in school because belief in intelligent design has squat to do with something like expansion of the universe.

How could a curriculum be made?
Can an apparatus be used to test anything based on intelligent design?

[whypikonme]

Oh and if one takes it that the Universe was not created, then it must either always have been or popped into existence. To follow you chaps use of "logic", the popping into existance from nowhere is not logical.

Not according to Superstring Theory, whereby there was already something there before the Big Bang.

[Barbarossa]

Oh and if one takes it that the Universe was not created, then it must either always have been or popped into existence. To follow you chaps use of "logic", the popping into existance from nowhere is not logical. Therefore the universe must always have been here (or there). It must also always be here (where would all the energy / matter go (it would only change form)).

See here's your problem chaps, you are trying to understand a universe of space-time / mass-energy using a basically Newtonian model, which doesn't even come close to working. Certainly not for the very big, very small, very fast or very slow. It's an approximation for a narrow spectrum of experience.

The what came before the big bang stuff is really interesting, none of it can follow the Newtonian model and none of it can be backed up properly - unlike the big bang theory.

Saying that it's illogical to say it popped into existence isn't completely accurate because I'm fully accepting of the school of thought that says there are things we don't understand. I'm confident of what happened after the big bang (altho' I don't/can't fully understand it due to lack of scientific training) but I'm not confident of what happened before.

There's nothing illogical about that.

There's no such thing as "before" the Big Bang.. because Time is a property of this Universe.

The trouble is we don't have enough terms of reference to explain how the universe came to exist. However, attributing it to some other "intelligence" to me seems like a kop-out.

As you've said before, it's lazy thinking, and it's the sort of thing that people used to invent to explain the sun and moon, storms, volcanoes, etc.

Throughout history and pre-history, people have always attributed things they don't understand to a Higher Being. It seems to be a symptom of the human condition.

@JPaul - Why is it "illogical" for the Universe to just simply come into existence? Perhaps "logic" is also a property of this Universe also...

Bottom line - We don't understand how the Universe came to be. Probably never will either... I'm just glad it did... and I'm glad we are here to wonder about it...

[manker]

So basically you understand nothing but you're willing to put it all down to a 'creator'.

That's not only illogical - it's also a very lazy way of thinking. You can't handle the theories behind the big bang so instead you close off your mind and put it all down to a creator.

Great stuff. At least we know your way of thinking and to be quite frank - you're welcome to it.

Cool. Lazy thinking is...."well it just happened".

You're explaination of my way of thinking is idiotic. Who the fuck said theories can't be handled? I believe theories can lead to further scientific study. However, they are still theories and people draw conclusions which are not so.

The Big Bang theory may be bullshit. The Bang could have been started by an intelligent being that may not fit into your statistical analysis nor your petri dish.

Yes, lazy thinking is putting your feet up and saying, "meh, it just happened". Rather than trying to understand.

I don't see how my explanation of your way of thinking is idiotic. In fact, I think it's spot on.

You said earlier that you believe in intelligent design, you then expounded (well, you agreed with me when I did your thinking for you) and said that it involves a lot more than god setting off the big bang and leaving stuff to happen. Now you're moving away and trying to focus on the big bang being started by an intelligent being.

You don't know what you believe

Relating to the topic however, this should be taught in school because belief in intelligent design has squat to do with something like expansion of the universe.

How could a curriculum be made?
Can an apparatus be used to test anything based on intelligent design?

I don't care.

You don't really have an opinion on the origin of the universe, the above is you distancing yourself from what you've written previously.

Everything you've posted so far has demonstrated your ignorance.

[JPaul]

manker,

I was actually having a cheap pop at people use of "logic". Using their apparent definition, to suggest that an entire universe came into being where nothing existed before would indeed be "illogical".

However I think we both agree that it did not appear from nothing, it was a result of something else. I believe donuts may have been involved .... and string

Good to see you accept the school of though that there are things we don't understand. I had been a bit concerned at your apparent closeness to omniscience (see qualifying superlatives as previously discussed).

Oh and if the big bang is what started time as well as everything else, then the question of what was "before" it doesn't really mean anything. However I just made that bit up for a larf .... or did I.

[vidcc]

Why must Intelligent Design be a belief in God.



Why do you assume that the creator of the universe had to be (a) God. Perhaps the creator of the universe has died. They certainly aren't (a) God then

I did ask if not god then who is it, however the champions (in this case) are devout Christians. Creationism (god created the earth) is not allowed to be taught in public school. These Christians are opposed to evolution being taught as it isn't consistent with their belief that god created the earth. So substitute the word "god" with "intelligent being" hey presto it's not religious and may be taught. (still only requires faith instead of scientific evidence though).


You can come up with many differing ideas about I.D. once the foundation is in place, but those are not the ones that these Christians wish taught. And it is their theories I started the thread about, not any other theory we can come up with here.

You can put a ford badge on your skoda....it's still a skoda.

[whypikonme]

There's no such thing as "before" the Big Bang.. because Time is a property of this Universe.

Not true. OUR time may have started at the big bang, that doesn't mean time itself does. IF the big bang happened it had a cause, the symptons of that cause must have taken place before the bang. You're mixing up the known universe with "everything".

[sArA]

I thought that the 'beings' on Magrathea built the earth as a giant super computer for a bunch of mice....







I'll get me coat....

[JPaul]

Why must Intelligent Design be a belief in God.



Why do you assume that the creator of the universe had to be (a) God. Perhaps the creator of the universe has died. They certainly aren't (a) God then

I did ask if not god then who is it, however the champions (in this case) are devout Christians. Creationism (god created the earth) is not allowed to be taught in public school. These Christians are opposed to evolution being taught as it isn't consistent with their belief that god created the earth. So substitute the word "god" with "intelligent being" hey presto it's not religious and may be taught. (still only requires faith instead of scientific evidence though).


You can come up with many differing ideas about I.D. once the foundation is in place, but those are not the ones that these Christians wish taught. And it is their theories I started the thread about, not any other theory we can come up with here.

You can put a ford badge on your skoda....it's still a skoda.

It appears you can only see a creator of the universe as being a God, others see it differently. I have explained how that might work.

If the creator if the universe is not a God (omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent) then how is studying her a religious matter. That is different from worshipping.

It is perfectly reasonable, outwith a religious framework, to suggest that a sentient being "designed" and created the universe as we know it. All that is doing is suggesting that their are being in the universe who are more advanced than us, then extend that possibility to a high degree.

The evidence for this ID is presumably assumptions based on observations. One group says the universe is complex, therefore it must be totally random. Another says that it is complex and orderly therefore there must have been a designer. Neither requires the existance, or otherwise, of a God.

[JPaul]

I thought that the 'beings' on Magrathea built the earth as a giant super computer for a bunch of mice....

Pan dimensional hyper beings, I think you'll find.