The Famous Statue Topple

[myfiles3000]

Originally posted by ClubDiggler@15 April 2003 - 00:15
I certainly do not find it possible to believe that the US has orchestrated every single display of
gratitude and happines seen from the Iraqi people.

agreed. that would be your run of the mill paranoid schizophrenic off the meds and covered in foil. I haven't been like that in months.

ps - i just want the person who's been trying to hack into my computer since i posted anti-american ideas on this board to know that I'm on to you. And I'm currently in discussion with a certain foreign power that's very interested in your activities, and who you work for, and all I'm going to say is this time you went too far.

[hobbes]

Yeah, I think the US has a monopoly on propaganda and we ALL misjudged Saddam.

I mean, in his video release he was just casually strolling down the streets of Baghdad, giving a shout out to his homies, while black smoke billowed in the backround. People spontaneously surrounded him, declaring their love and he proceded to KISS A FRIGGIN' BABY!.

That was not staged, that was real! Got any aerial photos of that session. Hell, drop back 20 feet and you would see the cue cards, see the man releasing the doves of freedom from their cages, to fly over his head.

I heard that when the stautue of Saddam fell and cracked in half, candy poured out of the center as Saddam is so sweet on the inside. This was editted out by Western conspirators.

I actually analyized the footage from the statue scene. IF you use the right filter, you can see that the burly Iraqi pounding on the base with a sledgehammer, is no more than Donald Rumsfeld in a specially designed robot.

Open you eyes America, Iraq loves Saddam, and we are no where, we are snake!

In fact, we do this ALL for Israel. Have you guys be catching all this anti-semitism (sp) from DiogenesUK and Fallenknight308 (who provides a nice link). I love it, what twisted paranoids they are.

[ClubDiggler]

hobbes,

That was some awesome stuff you wrote.
In all seriousness, people really like to write some great conspiracy stories. Those
are the best. Hey, really you should pass some of that material to Clancey or Demille.
I think they are running out of fresh ideas lately. B)

[j2k4]

Originally posted by myfiles3000@14 April 2003 - 13:30
Now its my time to sigh in exasperation.

SIGH.

the "conspiracy theory" label, always an effortless way to discredit someone.

All i'm saying is this: since the rise of mass media, semiotics plays a huge role in the popular understanding of world events. every war has its images, moments, that come to define the conflict, and are loaded with biases that aren't properly understood. ne1GotZardoz, in saying that everyone knows that everyone uses propaganda and I would be naive to think otherwise, doesn't realize the contradiction of his statement -- like advertising, it wouldn't be used if it didn't work, and propaganda can't work if everyone is fully conscious of what's going on.

There's been a lot of talk in the past week comparing Fardus Square with the fall of the Berlin Wall, and the statue footage has been heavily relied on as implicit justification of the invasion of Iraq, particularly as the WMD have still yet to be found -- "well, even if there aren't any WMD--and we're not saying there's not--we're still justified because look at all these people that hated saddam."

But the two events have nothing in common, the fall of the wall was a true popular uprising, a true *reflection* of events (media as mirror). The photo (from Reuters) paints a different picture: not a huge crowd of people, not a spontaneous, organic expression of the masses, but a carefully managed PR event with as much fidelity with the truth as the average ad. A creation.

I never counselled 'absolute reliance' on anything. the photo adds a different perspective to the story than is normally told, and is worthy of consideration. that is has no "exact chrono context", well, what were you expecting, a time stamp? big ben in the background? to denounce the photo in such stark, binary terms seems unreasonable to me. This is after all, war. 

j2k4, if you're going to suggest i'm "fundamentally dishonest, and lost to reason," you're going to have to do better than that. Please, explain it to me like i'm a 3 year old, what makes my original post so objectionable? Where i come from, the free exchange of information meeting a certain threshold of credibility -- certainly the case with this photo -- is encouraged, not denounced. Marketplace of ideas, etc.

It was indeed an "effortless" application of the "conspiracy" label; to waste time blasting a hole in the wall when the front door is left wide open runs counter to my inclination toward economy.
Semiotics or not, Mass media having risen (or not), the secret of deciphering the images and written/oral presentations of ANY media is to be screened or vetted judiciously by the consumer's (presumably) well-developed mental (read: NOT EMOTIONAL) faculties. This should be considered the minimum requirement for even watching T.V., reading newspapers or any periodicals. Regrettably, this is an impossible standard to observe. I will state, however, that to pronounce upon improperly digested material in an "International" forum is, to put it plainly, irresponsible.
To attempt to escape the derision you have invited by saying "All I'm saying is......." and then trying to sidestep the obvious intent of your original post by obfuscation is nothing more than changing oars so as to row out of the other side of the boat.
How in the hell can a media consumer be "fully conscious of what's going on" in a fully propagandized world? I submit he needs something he cannot get by bits and pieces, he MUST consume as much of the media pie as he can, and one picture doesn't fill the bill. Beyond the requisite investment of time, experience is also required. Your picture was pretty much a stand-alone item, presented by itself-you didn't give the potential consumers (members of the forum) any side dishes, just a lousy entree.
You are correct in stating you "never counselled 'absolute reliance' ". The problem was, you "counselled" NOTHING. Just threw the picture out there and almost dared a different conclusion than the one YOU reached.
Let me tell you what I gathered by looking at your picture (I waited for you to point this out yourself, but you didn't):
The tank has just begun to approach the statue; this is a clear indication that whatever crowd was in attendance when the statue finally fell, it had not assembled yet-at the point the picture was taken, nothing had occurred that would prompt a crowd to gather: why would a crowd gather to watch frustrated Iraqis throw shoes and sundry trash at a statue? THAT was happening all over Baghdad!
I watched the entire event on T.V.; the views shown only included the area immediately around the statue, and then pulled back slightly to get the tank in the frame. The only thing that struck me other than the obvious zeal of the crowd was the fact that I noticed more and more people continously rushing to join the festivities. I suppose the "event staff" might have organized the "150" Iraqis to run laps through the frame, but somehow I don't think so.
Anyway-I've banged on long enough; I thought you were merely irresponsible when I first read your post, but I upped the charge to dishonesty when you tried to defend it so vociferously.
You will notice, if you indeed read this, nowhere have I suggested that you are not free to post anything you like in this forum (I'm not a mod; I couldn't
stop you in any case). I do wish you had taken my post in the spirit I meant it; i.e., you needed to provide some balance. You ignored me, as is surely your right. Rest assured, though: If you don't provide the balance, I'm gonna try.
Also, don't insult me, yourself, and everybody else here by asking for the "3-year-old" explanation-it is plain you are at least a very precocious 10-year-old.

[ne1GotZardoz]

Originally posted by myfiles3000@13 April 2003 - 22:44
I'm still waiting for an explanation on the AQ/Iraq theme your were foisting earlier today, but so far you've only managed to parakeet j2k4's postings, criticize me for not having aesthetically pleasing posts, and mimick, in fashion most juvenile, "Middle Eastern English."

Actually, I'm still trying to figure out why you think Saddam put a statute of himself next to a strategically placed hotel, knowing full well that American News Media would film it being torn down?


Is this another of your conspiracy theories?

Are you behind it?


Where were you on the morning of September 11, 2001?

Don't take speculation as fact, my friend.

Thats the stuff that wars are made of and we've had quite enough of those, thank you.

Peace

Edited to add this:

Personally, I prefer a day at the zoo with a loved one, to trying to figure out if maybe something could have happened a certain way.

Especially when the available information, in all honesty, points to several possibilities, only one of which is yours.

Again, Peace

[DiogenesUK]

Originally posted by hobbes@15 April 2003 - 02:13
Yeah, I think the US has a monopoly on propaganda and we ALL misjudged Saddam.

I mean, in his video release he was just casually strolling down the streets of Baghdad, giving a shout out to his homies, while black smoke billowed in the backround. People spontaneously surrounded him, declaring their love and he proceded to KISS A FRIGGIN' BABY!.

That was not staged, that was real! Got any aerial photos of that session. Hell, drop back 20 feet and you would see the cue cards, see the man releasing the doves of freedom from their cages, to fly over his head.

I heard that when the stautue of Saddam fell and cracked in half, candy poured out of the center as Saddam is so sweet on the inside. This was editted out by Western conspirators.

I actually analyized the footage from the statue scene. IF you use the right filter, you can see that the burly Iraqi pounding on the base with a sledgehammer, is no more than Donald Rumsfeld in a specially designed robot.

Open you eyes America, Iraq loves Saddam, and we are no where, we are snake!

In fact, we do this ALL for Israel. Have you guys be catching all this anti-semitism (sp) from DiogenesUK and Fallenknight308 (who provides a nice link). I love it, what twisted paranoids they are.

I understand entirely your misgivings regarding my posts,but speaking as an Israeli/American living here in the UK,I feel I have a right to express my opinions & doubts about the motives for this farcical situation.

As I've stated on several occasions,I supported the overthrow of Saddam & his cohorts,but I've seen enough puppet governments to know one when I see one,and Bush 'leads' one of the all-time classics of that genre.

Of course I realise that any criticism of Israel is taboo,that's exactly why they can carry out their own ethnic cleansing with impunity.

Just wait 'til their clerics,who hold the balance of power there, decide it's the pre-ordained time to say bye-bye to this planet,there's nothing the Americans or anyone else will be able to do about it.

I have many good friends in Israel,but they aren't fooled by any of the rhetoric passing for fact in the 'fog of war'


Shalom

[j2k4]

Originally posted by DiogenesUK@15 April 2003 - 03:56

Just wait 'til their clerics,who hold the balance of power there, decide it's the pre-ordained time to say bye-bye to this planet,there's nothing the Americans or anyone else will be able to do about it.

Now, THERE is a provocative statement-care to expand and expound, DiogenesUK?
I await any response with 'bated breath, as I must step away for a while.........

[hobbes]

J2K4,

I awoke this morning to find my dictionary empty. Suspicious, I checked the forum and found all the words in your posts above. Could you please return them when your done.

Thanks in advance.


Diogenes,

You seem to have a unique perspective. My experience with Jewish people has been largely positive. I grew up in a suburb where most of the population was Jewish. My best friends were Jewish and I can never remember religion being an issue. My apperance is overtly non-Jewish, almost the stereotypical antithesis, but this never seemed to bother the parents of any of my friends. I felt as welcome in their homes as I did at the homes of my nonJewish friends.

Without going into my life story, I find it hard to understand how these people I grew up with would support what you are describing in Israel.

Most Americans couldn't find Israel on a map, most Americans could care less about it. We do have a very active and powerful Jewish contingent in our population who lobby for pro-Israeli policies for sure, but Americans are not Pro-Israel and it is certainly no sacred cow, which is above criticism.

Your comments intrigue me, please clarify.

[j2k4]

Originally posted by hobbes@15 April 2003 - 08:19
J2K4,

I awoke this morning to find my dictionary empty. Suspicious, I checked the forum and found all the words in your posts above. Could you please return them when your done.

Thanks in advance.

Done for the nonce-feel free.

You already own a nice selection; may I borrow yours occasionally?

[hobbes]

Originally posted by j2k4+15 April 2003 - 18:36--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (j2k4 @ 15 April 2003 - 18:36)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--hobbes@15 April 2003 - 08:19
J2K4,

I awoke this morning to find my dictionary empty. Suspicious, I checked the forum and found all the words in your posts above.&nbsp; Could you please return them when your done.

Thanks in advance.

Done for the nonce-feel free.

You already own a nice selection; may I borrow yours occasionally? [/b][/quote]
Oh come on now, you know the majority of my vocabulary is compromised of neologisms.

Feel free to use them, but watch out for the man with the butterfly net.