The Famous Statue Topple

[j2k4]

Originally posted by ne1GotZardoz@13 April 2003 - 21:55
Has anyone noticed that myfiles3000 seems to have a problem quoting text?

Must be me.

Peace

I noticed; it's not just you.

I wonder where myfiles3000 went?

I hope he/she doesn't think ill of me, or that I am an "ugly" American.

I hope he/she doesn't feel I was mis-leading him/her?

Well? Was I?

[myfiles3000]

NE1, yes i have a problem quoting -- and yet, somehow, i brave the world with chin raised high, determined to have my say, even if people judge me on the format of my postings, not the content. The good lord gives me the strenth to go on, one day at a time. I'm still waiting for an explanation on the AQ/Iraq theme your were foisting earlier today, but so far you've only managed to parakeet j2k4's postings, criticize me for not having aesthetically pleasing posts, and mimick, in fashion most juvenile, "Middle Eastern English."

j2k4: my reputation as a gentleman would be unfounded if I weren't to concede that I may have taken your comments at face value, and thereby underestimated your intellect. But I hardly think you know me well enough to describe me to a tee. I'm not that easy.

Agnew? you mean Dick's lapdog? didn't he used to talk about an unelected elite that ran American media counter to majority views? hmmmmm.....

[myfiles3000]

I'm sorry if i came on a little strong, I have a tendency to intimidate people. I'll tone it down a little if it would make you feel more comfortable.

[j2k4]

Originally posted by myfiles3000@14 April 2003 - 06:16
I'm sorry if i came on a little strong, I have a tendency to intimidate people. I'll tone it down a little if it would make you feel more comfortable.

Intimidate? Nah-

I wasn't criticizing you, but you have to admit, 'twas YOU who were guilty of not reading adequately.
I do take issue with your characterization of the statue-toppling event; the number of "attendees" is always subject to the focal settings of the camera and also to the intent of it's operator. The picture you chose seemed to rather fortuitously fit your pre-supposition of propaganda.
In any case, neither the picture nor your supposition proves anything as they don't rise to the level of documentation. I feel your post was merely an attempt to provoke, and provoke it did; you just didn't get the reaction you wanted, at least from me.

Personally, I think the money we gave those actors was very well-spent.

P.S. I have to admit-I WAS making fun of you, just a bit, anyway. Sorry-

P.P.S. I am a gentleman, too. I wasn't trying to describe you, only your posts-I apologize for the mis-understanding there.
You're right about Spiro, of course, but he shore cud tawk prittee.

[Barbarossa]

If it was staged as a publicity stunt I thought it was very badly orchestrated, what with the draping the face with the stars and stripes which was hastily taken down, then the fact that it took ages to pull it down, and even then it more slid down rather than crashed down.


It would have been a much more effective demonstration (and much better telly) if they'd have blown the crap out of it with a bazooka...

The first bloke who ran up and smacked him over the head with his shoe though, that was absolute class!

[j2k4]

Originally posted by barbarossa@14 April 2003 - 09:44
The first bloke who ran up and smacked him over the head with his shoe though, that was absolute class!

It was, at that; you must never forget, though, Barbarossa, only ONE "Iraqi" was doing the hitting-it would probably be advisable to review the tape AND the hitter's technique so as to ascertain, and thereby certify, the truth of his "Iraqiness". I've heard he may have been Israeli. Honest. I read a "link"...

[myfiles3000]

Originally posted by j2k4@14 April 2003 - 14:47
In any case, neither the picture nor your supposition proves anything as they don't rise to the level of documentation.

Documentation, you say? Like, the falsified British intelligence report Powell referred to in making his case against Saddam in front of the whole world? The documentation purporting to be secret British intelligence, that pasted entire excerpts verbatim without citing the source from a 10 year old grad paper? Or perhaps you prefer the type of documentation referred to by the Pentagon, alleging Iraqi purchase of 'yellow cake' from a certain african nation, which turned out to be such an embarrassingly inept forgery that it was rejected by the UN atomic agency as soon as they saw it.

As for the flag draped on the statue, one curious fact: it's was flying at the pentagon on 9/11. The fact that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 is conveniently overlooked. They're all brown anyway, all arabs, close enough.

[j2k4]

(SIGH)

Once again, now.
The pointlessness of absolute reliance on ANY "news source", or "link", should be apparent to EVERYBODY.
Anybody who doesn't use their own DISCRETION when gleaning info from WHEREVER is bound to leap to the wrong conclusion.
Those who engage in "conspiracy" theory are also engaging in useless activity. To proffer a "picture" (especially one with no exact chronological context) as indicative of ANYTHING is MIS-LEADING and of no greater import than the most egregious propaganda.
This is the activity of the judgementally impaired.

myfiles3000-If you must insist that you were right in your original post, then I must insist that you are lost to reason.

To post in such a way indicates a fundamental dishonesty.

[myfiles3000]

Now its my time to sigh in exasperation.

SIGH.

the "conspiracy theory" label, always an effortless way to discredit someone.

All i'm saying is this: since the rise of mass media, semiotics plays a huge role in the popular understanding of world events. every war has its images, moments, that come to define the conflict, and are loaded with biases that aren't properly understood. ne1GotZardoz, in saying that everyone knows that everyone uses propaganda and I would be naive to think otherwise, doesn't realize the contradiction of his statement -- like advertising, it wouldn't be used if it didn't work, and propaganda can't work if everyone is fully conscious of what's going on.

There's been a lot of talk in the past week comparing Fardus Square with the fall of the Berlin Wall, and the statue footage has been heavily relied on as implicit justification of the invasion of Iraq, particularly as the WMD have still yet to be found -- "well, even if there aren't any WMD--and we're not saying there's not--we're still justified because look at all these people that hated saddam."

But the two events have nothing in common, the fall of the wall was a true popular uprising, a true *reflection* of events (media as mirror). The photo (from Reuters) paints a different picture: not a huge crowd of people, not a spontaneous, organic expression of the masses, but a carefully managed PR event with as much fidelity with the truth as the average ad. A creation.

I never counselled 'absolute reliance' on anything. the photo adds a different perspective to the story than is normally told, and is worthy of consideration. that is has no "exact chrono context", well, what were you expecting, a time stamp? big ben in the background? to denounce the photo in such stark, binary terms seems unreasonable to me. This is after all, war.

j2k4, if you're going to suggest i'm "fundamentally dishonest, and lost to reason," you're going to have to do better than that. Please, explain it to me like i'm a 3 year old, what makes my original post so objectionable? Where i come from, the free exchange of information meeting a certain threshold of credibility -- certainly the case with this photo -- is encouraged, not denounced. Marketplace of ideas, etc.

[ClubDiggler]

Hmmm Interesting debate.

It seems to me that if one must read between the lines regarding
the media; one must also do the same regarding this post and other
sources of information. Skepticism goes both ways.

Anyway I do find it plausible that this one event might be at least
partly orchestrated by the U.S. (Perhaps not in its entirety)

There is no way to tell how many, if any individuals performing the ritual
were members of Mr. Ahmed Chalabi. Also the pictures of Chalabi shown
do not specificaly place him at the scene. Maybe other pictures may show more
clearly his surroundings. It does not matter anyway.

That particular incident is not the only one shown where Iraqis demonstrate hapiness
and gratitude towards coalition forces.

Amongst the many media displays, I particularly remember an old man beating a poster
of Saddam using his shoe and talking about how Saddam killed his sons.

I do find it possible to believe that the US may have something to do with some theatrics.

I certainly do not find it possible to believe that the US has orchestrated every single display of
gratitude and happines seen from the Iraqi people.

If this is true; I think Hollywood just found a wonderful source of talent!