Hurricane Katrina...

[tracydani]

I think that donating money for those that can, does help in a way. It is less money (theoretically)that will be needed from the government in the form of taxes.

The money may be there, but that is because the government will take it if it wants it, and maybe from an area equally in need. This then raises the taxes for those who couldn't really afford it in the first place.

Besides, is America really as rich as we claim? Don't we owe a lot of money everywhere and just don't pay because we are "bigger"? I am probably wrong, but it seems as if that is what I have heard/read in the past.

But I guess that is another discussion

[Cheese]

I too hope this gets looked into fully and that we make some big changes in how we do things. I said so in the poll I started.

Cool, then we agree. Sort of.

I'm going to ignore (but not really) the Europe bit as it didn't make much sense and just seems to be the common defence round here..."Hey, you guys are crap as well". I know.

[tracydani]

[QUOTE=Withcheese]

I'm going to ignore (but not really) the Europe bit as it didn't make much sense and just seems to be the common defence round here..."Hey, you guys are crap as well". I know.

I did say it wouldn't be clear

But I am not really saying "Hey, you guys are crap as well", I really do not think that. I just think that standards do not seem the same for everyone.

[JPaul]

[QUOTE=tracydani]

I did say it wouldn't be clear

But I am not really saying "Hey, you guys are crap as well", I really do not think that. I just think that standards do not seem the same for everyone.

That's probably because you (plural) are perceived as having a superiority complex.

Whilst others kind of look down on you and are puzzled as to what you actually feel superior about.

[Barbarossa]

It's hard for me to comprehend the scale of the disaster area, so it don't like to criticise the relief effort.

However, it's been well known that if a category 4 or above storm headed directly for New Orleans, the levees would fail. I seem to remember last year they thought a storm was heading in that direction, but it veered away at the last minute. That should have been warning enough.

In the UK the Environment Agency has done massive research on the effects of climate change, global warming and rising sea levels on the coastline, and plans have been put into place to either adequately protect the vulnerable areas, or to undertake a "managed retreat", and let the sea reclaim areas that it's not cost-effective to protect, especially on the south coast and East Anglia. This also creates salt marshes and wetland areas which are great for wildlife!

It just appears to me that our Government is alot more environmentally-savvy than thier American counterparts, and they are also more realistic in terms of the way our planet is going to change in the near future.

I just hope this tragedy acts as a wake-up call to the US administration that they can no longer treat the environment with contempt. Scientists will argue that there is no direct link between this accident and climate change, but it does appear that these storms are getting more frequent, and so we are going to be seeing alot more towns around the Gulf turned into match-wood in the coming years.

Even the most powerful nation on earth is no match for the raw power of nature unleashed.

[Busyman]

I'm sorry but when I brought up, "Who foresaw that?"..that was for Hank blaming the people that had no means to escape the hurricane.

Bush's main mistake was absorbing FEMA into HLS. There is shit everywhere from fixing bridges to earthquake fortification that needs tending to and it all can't be done. Things need to be weighed against potential consequences.

However, my main concern is the shit I'm hearing about the aftermath and the apparent lack of concern by our President.

I remember a child running between two cars and into the street and was hit by a bus and killed. Everyone wanted to assess blame to the parents, the bus driver and I for one blamed the kid. However, I also looked at the shitty ambulance response time and how it should be fixed.

In my view, our President is overall fuck up and he gets a complete F grade for his tenure.

On a minor point, his inaction before this happened, and on a major point, his inaction afterwards and yes this is a flipflop of my first post 'cause now I know help was a rearing to go and the major help, it seems, was put into a fucking holding pattern and until the savior Jebus Bush came to have fucking photo ops even during a conversation with a grieving woman!!!

Bush even put a longtime friend in charge of FEMA with no fucking experience.

Cronyism

[Everose]

'Tragedy often becomes a stage for the best of human character. But it seems as if this tragedy is also destined to be a stage for the worst, a spotlight on the divisions that have lately grown so much wider between us.'
Leonard Pitts, Miami Herald

Well, Busyman, I have read a lot on FEMA lately and it's absorption into the Homeland Security Department......a decision made by the Bush Administration. There are pros and cons to this decision, though, aren't there? How dare Bush 'let' this hurricane happen while these two departments are being blended! I have to wonder what would be said if we had two strong tax supported agencies down there, each trying to lead the rescue efforts. I can hear the complaints about Bush supporting two agencies, when combining these agencies would have been a lot more tax efficient.

tracydani has raised some interesting issues. I would like to go with that and add a few things.

I would like to believe those that aren't American on this board have America's best interest at heart on this forum and elsewhere. I would really like to believe that. So I listen to what they say. But the more I listen, the more my hopes are dashed. I see a lot of flat out criticism with no real understanding in the differences of our size, taxing systems, and governments. Some of you realize this and that is always refreshing to me, and I appreciate it.

We have our City/County Governments. Since 9/11, our Federal Government has been pouring money right and left into grants for emergency preparedness at the City level.....county and state, too, but the City level is where the responsibility starts. No one can tell me that New Orleans didn't get their fair share of this money. What did they do with it? Did they have a system set up where buses were made available for all those who did not have the means to leave the city were given it when an emergency like this was imminent? Does it not make sense that with their knowing their levee's would not hold up during a level 5 Hurricane that this would be their first priority? Money has been given from the federal government to municipal govenments to enable them to plan and equip for such disasters. Where did this money go in New Orleans? And even if they had such a plan, which in my mind they should have.........did they also forsee in this plan they may need armed guards to force people to leave for their own good? Many of these people refused to leave. They have had a lot of Hurricane scares in the past that didn't pan out. Lot of variables there......but the City should have had a plan. They should have worked out these variables.

Counties/Parishes receive Federal funds for this planning, also. Usually what happens there is the biggest City in the county/parish ends up benefitting the most. So now New Orleans has a lot of Parish federal funds to add to their City federal funds. What was done with this money?

Each State receives a hunk of Federal funds, too. A lot of states are richer than others because of natural resources present in their states. Lousianna, from what I have read, has a large abundance of natural resources in the way of oil. This state has tremendous amounts of oil that is being harvested, so to speak. This oil has brought billions of dollars in the way of tax revenue to this state. What was this revenue spent on? I would like to see an accounting of it. What I am seeing now is that they have reaped a lot of tax money off this, let the removal of this oil destabilize the very ground they live on and are now seeing the results of this raping of their land. But it is all the federal governments fault?

Quite frankly, I have never seen the federal government as my savior. I do any planning keeping this in mind. The responsibility starts with myself, my local and state government, and then on a national scale, my federal government. How do we make the jump from self responsibility to federal government responsibility for self so quickly and so all encompassing?

With this big of a disaster, hindsight should start at the 'responsibility for self' level. For anyone that chose to live in an unstable area like this, an area built so far below sea level, why had they not beat down the doors of their local government and put the pressure where it would help the most? Why did they not demand to know what provisions were being made for their evacuation beforehand? Even become involved in the emergency planning?

I get a little leery of every thing that happens being blamed on Bush. Probably not for the reasons you think. I don't care for the man for more reasons than one. But it sickens me to see that those that rant and rave and throw every little thing that happens in the world squarely on his shoulders have in their unintentional way given the man himself undeserved 'God-like' qualities.

It is not my way to point fingers and place blame when we are in the midst of a disaster such as this. It makes me feel sick to do so. ONLY because of the tendency in this thread to once again bash Bush again do I do so. Criminetly I am sick of hearing his name and seeing the godlike qualities given him. And I have to add....it really isn't his supporters that give him thus.

Does it never end? Now I am reading some think it is God's will, this hurricane.

Once again quoting Leonard Pitts, Miami Herald:

Memo to all these nitwits: it was a hurricane, not God's stamp of approval for your small-mindedness and hate.

[Everose]

The thing about the money is really a "what's the point". As far as I am aware there is no shortage of funds to deal with the situation, so why would someone send around 40% of their income. How is it supposed to help if there's plenty of money anyway.

Jebus then seems to conjecture that the donation was to ease the chaps own conscience, to make him feel better, rather than any actual assistance it may provide.

It seems a reasonable point to make, I couldn't possibly comment.

I know the point you are making here, JPaul. I understand where you are coming from.

But

We have thousands of displaced New Orleans in shelters in other states without anything but the clothes on their backs to their names. Money and work being given will help these people. For those of us unable to be there,, to dig right in and be physically present to assist, it may ease our conscience a bit to send money, but said money should not be made that light of. It is needed and appreciated.

[BigBank_Hank]

Wow Rose that’s quite a post. I’m glad that I read all posts before responding because you seemed to have pretty much made every point that I was going to.

I’m coming to the conclusion that people blame Bush for everything because they are still mad about losing the election in 2000. They are still bitter and so mad that they don’t know what to do with them selves. So every action that Bush takes they take the complete opposite side no matter how ridiculous it may be.

People here act like Bush is the one who is in control of the state also. It’s state and local officials who have demonstrated just how incompetent they are, and how poor their leadership skills are. The fact that the Governor had not called up more national guardsmen before the storm is pitiful. She saw this thing coming in for 2 or 3 days and didn’t do anything but issue a mandatory evacuation for the city that a lot of people didn’t listen to. This is a melt down at the state and local official level and they sat around with the thumbs up their asses and bitched and moaned because it was all Bush’s fault.

[Busyman]

Wow Rose that’s quite a post. I’m glad that I read all posts before responding because you seemed to have pretty much made every point that I was going to.

I’m coming to the conclusion that people blame Bush for everything because they are still mad about losing the election in 2000. They are still bitter and so mad that they don’t know what to do with them selves. So every action that Bush takes they take the complete opposite side no matter how ridiculous it may be.

People here act like Bush is the one who is in control of the state also. It’s state and local officials who have demonstrated just how incompetent they are, and how poor their leadership skills are. The fact that the Governor had not called up more national guardsmen before the storm is pitiful. She saw this thing coming in for 2 or 3 days and didn’t do anything but issue a mandatory evacuation for the city that a lot of people didn’t listen to. This is a melt down at the state and local official level and they sat around with the thumbs up their asses and bitched and moaned because it was all Bush’s fault.

Your post would have teeth if you didn't try to blame the state officials by their lonesome.

My thing is not what happened beforehand. It is it's aftermath. I read that there were folks ready to go but waiting on Bush's say so. Wtf?!!!

I also know Bush can't control hurricane's. However, it amazes me that for the man in charge, he can't seem to quite get it right. So far, the only thing seems to be Afghanistan, which was a no brainer. Everything else has been less than redeemable.