Lies,hypocrisy & Hyperbole

[DiogenesUK]

...And living in the US of A

Just seen tv footage of some kuwaiti or other in the states with Colin Powell.No doubt the aforementioned Mr Powell will be pressing him,and the Saudi administration on their adoption of democracy in the near future.......NOT

This latest massacre has produced new lows in reporting,the likes of which I never thought anyone would dare to even contemplate.The only conclusion I can draw is that the audience truly is as stupid as was feared by the rest of the world

[N£MO]

It's no worse than the lies told in the UK.One example that springs to mind is the theosis that was drawn up before the war by the UK gov,didnt that include some stuff that a student wrote...

My point....all goverments lie to their people and are hypocratic,i dont think the USA are any worse in that aspect

[ne1GotZardoz]

Originally posted by N£MO@15 April 2003 - 10:37
It's no worse than the lies told in the UK.One example that springs to mind is the theosis that was drawn up before the war by the UK gov,didnt that include some stuff that a student wrote...

My point....all goverments lie to their people and are hypocratic,i dont think the USA are any worse in that aspect

I'm curious to know what those Theosis were on exactly.

I've heard two people now who made a big to-do over them, but I have yet to find out what its about, and if the theosis were right in their assertion.

Thats something I would think should be brought out before you proclaim a doccument as a fabrication...What was the validity of the source?

And the other person who referenced that doccument admitted that the UK/US was up front with that fact that the doccument was comprised of information from several sources.

So far I'm not seeing a problem here.

What are you not mentioning?

[ne1GotZardoz]

Just seen tv footage of some kuwaiti or other in the states with Colin Powell.No doubt the aforementioned Mr Powell will be pressing him,and the Saudi administration on their adoption of democracy in the near future.......NOT 

This latest massacre has produced new lows in reporting,the likes of which I never thought anyone would dare to even contemplate.The only conclusion I can draw is that the audience truly is as stupid as was feared by the rest of the world 

Just call me stupid then, because I have no idea what you just said.

It looks like you are accusing Powell of not trying to encourage the spread of democracy.
I wonder what you make of the Iraqi Ambassador to the UN first visiting New York, then Paris, then Jordan?

Suspicious don't you agree?

[DiogenesUK]

Originally posted by ne1GotZardoz@15 April 2003 - 21:26

Just seen tv footage of some kuwaiti or other in the states with Colin Powell.No doubt the aforementioned Mr Powell will be pressing him,and the Saudi administration on their adoption of democracy in the near future.......NOT

This latest massacre has produced new lows in reporting,the likes of which I never thought anyone would dare to even contemplate.The only conclusion I can draw is that the audience truly is as stupid as was feared by the rest of the world

Just call me stupid then, because I have no idea what you just said.

It looks like you are accusing Powell of not trying to encourage the spread of democracy.
I wonder what you make of the Iraqi Ambassador to the UN first visiting New York, then Paris, then Jordan?

Suspicious don't you agree?

Yes indeed,deeply suspicious,I'll watch that chap with interest,maybe he's the information ministers (half !!&#33 brother

[myfiles3000]

Originally posted by ne1GotZardoz@15 April 2003 - 21:26
I'm curious to know what those Theosis were on exactly.

There have been two incidents in particular regarding falsified intelligence. The first is the British report, cited by Colin Powell in his address to the UN, where he lays out the evidence against SH. Second, a story originally broke by hirsch in the new yorker, detailing how a hopelessly incompetent forgery somehow passed the scrutiny of American intelligence as it was forwarded all the way up to the top, and served as evidence to ground the rumsfeld/wolfowitz doctrine.

British Government Plagiarizes MERIA Journal: Our Response
As some of you may have heard, a major scandal which has received global media coverage erupted over the British government’s plagiarism of a MERIA Journal article.

In brief, the story is as follows. Ibrahim al-Marashi wrote a fine article in our September 2002 issue entitled, “Iraq’s Security and Intelligence Network: A Guide and Analysis,” which looked at that country’s secret police and other such forces in detail. He used captured Iraqi documents from the 1991 Kuwait war but updated it to cover later developments, power shifts, and personnel changes among these agencies. (For other works using these archives in MERIA Journal, see Robert Rabil, "Operation "Operation Termination of Traitors": Iraq's Anti-Kurdish Campaign"MJ Vol.6, No.3 (September, 2002) and Robert G. Rabil, "The Iraqi Opposition's Evolution: From Conflict to Unity?" MJ Vol. 6, No. 4 (December 2002).

On February 3, 2003, the British government released a report, "Iraq: Its Infrastructure of Concealment, Deception and Intimidation" which was said to be based on high-level British intelligence and diplomatic sources. It was produced under the approval of Prime Minister Tony Blair and was highly praised by U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell.  The problem was that most of the report was taken word-for-word from Marashi’s MERIA Journal and other articles.

from: http://meria.idc.ac.il/british-govt-plagia...izes-meria.html

Some Evidence on Iraq Called Fake (washingtonpost.com)
... UN Nuclear Inspector Says Documents on Purchases Were Forged, ... president, David Albright,
wrote in the report. Powell's spokesman said the secretary of state had ...
www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/ articles/A59403-2003Mar7.html - Similar pages

CNN.com - Fake Iraq documents 'embarrassing' for US - Mar. 14, ...
... From David Ensor CNN Washington Bureau, US Secretary of State Colin Powell
spoke to the UN Security Council on Wednesday, February 5. Story Tools. ...
www.cnn.com/2003/US/03/14/sprj.irq.documents/ - 38k - Cached - Similar pages

The New Yorker
WHO LIED TO WHOM?
by SEYMOUR M. HERSH
Why did the Administration endorse a forgery about Iraq’s nuclear program?
Issue of 2003-03-31
Posted 2003-03-24
Last September 24th, as Congress prepared to vote on the resolution authorizing President George W. Bush to wage war in Iraq, a group of senior intelligence officials, including George Tenet, the Director of Central Intelligence, briefed the Senate Foreign Relations Committee on Iraq’s weapons capability. It was an important presentation for the Bush Administration. Some Democrats were publicly questioning the President’s claim that Iraq still possessed weapons of mass destruction which posed an immediate threat to the United States. Just the day before, former Vice-President Al Gore had sharply criticized the Administration’s advocacy of preëmptive war, calling it a doctrine that would replace “a world in which states consider themselves subject to law” with “the notion that there is no law but the discretion of the President of the United States.” A few Democrats were also considering putting an alternative resolution before Congress.

CIA Questioned Documents Linking Iraq, Uranium Ore
By Dana Priest and Karen DeYoung
Washington Post Staff Writers
Saturday, March 22, 2003; Page A30
CIA officials now say they communicated significant doubts to the administration about the evidence backing up charges that Iraq tried to purchase uranium from Africa for nuclear weapons, charges that found their way into President Bush's State of the Union address, a State Department "fact sheet" and public remarks by numerous senior officials.

[j2k4]

The preceding post is on point and well-documented.
(Thought you'd like to hear that)

[myfiles3000]

Originally posted by ne1GotZardoz@15 April 2003 - 21:26

And the other person who referenced that doccument admitted that the UK/US was up front with that fact that the doccument was comprised of information from several sources.

So far I'm not seeing a problem here.

yes, ne1, this is otherwise known as "getting caught with your pants around your ankles, and trying to deny would only make you look stupid as well as dishonest." Its not uncommon in politics or international relations for this to happen, and when it does, the repurcussions are not normally that bad. This is because things are organized to maximize the "plausible deniability" factor -- the sum total of actions may constitute a crime, but no single person could be blamed. And so on.

Anyway, I think its pretty clear that UKUSA got caught pulling a fast one. Oh, by the way, to lend further support to this interpretation, staffers at MI6 leaked secret documents to the press that expressly contradicted the official line from Washington and London that there was a link between iraq and OBL.

Getting caught spying on diplomats at the UN, as you try to convince the world to legitimize your invasion is one thing (google that one yourself), but having your own intelligence officers leak information that contradicts the party line, well, that's not a good sign.

What do you see now?

Leaked report rejects Iraqi al-Qaeda link
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/2727471.stm

[myfiles3000]

Originally posted by j2k4@16 April 2003 - 05:21
The preceding post is on point and well-documented.
(Thought you'd like to hear that)

I was kind of hoping i'd get some feedback, thanks. i think i now have a clear idea of how to procede. you know at the end of Fight Club, when EN says "you met me at a strange time in my life"? well, lets just say i've been a bit more confronational than normal.

[j2k4]

Originally posted by myfiles3000+15 April 2003 - 23:26--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (myfiles3000 @ 15 April 2003 - 23:26)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--j2k4@16 April 2003 - 05:21
The preceding post is on point and well-documented.
(Thought you&#39;d like to hear that)

I was kind of hoping i&#39;d get some feedback, thanks. i think i now have a clear idea of how to procede. you know at the end of Fight Club, when EN says "you met me at a strange time in my life"? well, lets just say i&#39;ve been a bit more confronational than normal. [/b][/quote]
I jumped a little quick myself.

I am embarrassed for the coalition to have suffered these faux pas, but I guess if you choose to play the game.....
I &#39;d like to believe someone cared about getting caught "pants down"; in the final analysis, though, NOBODY seems to care about appearances OR credibility.
They can&#39;t cogitate (there I go) that some, indeed, most, of the ideas they hold forth (i.e., Saddam needed to go) would stand on their own merit, no spin required.
I think the polls would indicate-regardless of Michael Moore&#39;s rantings-that for political purposes, Americans were behind the idea regardless of the pretext for removal.
I&#39;m pretty conservative, pretty Republican, and pretty hawkish-doesn&#39;t make it any easier to watch my guys dropping the rhetorical ball.