Bush takes responsibility for shortcomings...

[Rat Faced]

The problem was essentially a reluctance at local and state levels to face the true threat Katrina presented, combined with the two additional factors of incompetence at FEMA (Miller), and a belief on everyone's part that the duty of pulling the trigger on the whole operation belonged to the "other guy".

I posted a Timetable of things said in the Media..

The State declared a State of Emergency and requested Federal Aid and Troops before the Hurricane hit.

The National Guard that was available to the State (bearing in mind they were way undermanned due to a significant number being abroad somewhere) were initially told to keep the area clear for FEMA which was on the way..so they did, and FEMA wasn't. This meant that Charitable Aid wasn't allowed in on Federal orders and the Feds failed to materialise.

An Aircraft Carrier in the Gulf was the 1st to send helicopters into New Orleans.. these were ordered out of the area for 2 days by the Feds, and were not allowed to land military personnelle for a similar length of time.

I understand that the State and City both have big question marks and some explaining to do: Specifically about how they utterly failed to try and evacuate those that were unable to leave and why the Police and later the National Guard were told to stop looters in preference to saving lives. It has to be said though they were under Federal pressure over the latter (you did see Bush on TV didnt you?)

However, just about all the aftermath cockups appear to be Federal, not State or City.

It was the Feds that stopped immediate aid coming in from Canada and the Caribean.

It was the Feds that ordered the way into/out of the city kept clear for FEMA, which stopped charitable aid getting in from other States and the Red Cross.

It was the Feds that wouldnt let the loaded FEMA convoy in Texas to go to the scene for 3 days, much to the surprise and chagrin of the drivers of said convoy.

It was the Feds that ordered the Naval Helicopters off the scene for 2 days.

It was the Feds that wouldnt allow National Guard/Regular Military help from other States for 2-3 days.

It was the Feds that decided that the 1st Firefighters into the area from other States main priority was a presidential photo opportunity ffs..

I'm not saying WHO in the Federal Hierarchy is to blame... Bush wouldnt get his hands dirty so he was good for nothing anyway. However it was most impolitic for the members of the administration to be going fundraising, to the opera, shopping etc etc etc... whilst their citizens were dying from the Federal fuckups.

Its also very coincidental that all these federal fuckups all stopped so that everything was coming into New Orleans at exactly the same time as the President. If one was cynical, one could easily point out that the chances of so many coincidences being timed so perfectly, is most unlikely.

[j2k4]

The problem was essentially a reluctance at local and state levels to face the true threat Katrina presented, combined with the two additional factors of incompetence at FEMA (Miller), and a belief on everyone's part that the duty of pulling the trigger on the whole operation belonged to the "other guy".

I posted a Timetable of things said in the Media..

The State declared a State of Emergency and requested Federal Aid and Troops before the Hurricane hit.

The National Guard that was available to the State (bearing in mind they were way undermanned due to a significant number being abroad somewhere) were initially told to keep the area clear for FEMA which was on the way..so they did, and FEMA wasn't. This meant that Charitable Aid wasn't allowed in on Federal orders and the Feds failed to materialise.

An Aircraft Carrier in the Gulf was the 1st to send helicopters into New Orleans.. these were ordered out of the area for 2 days by the Feds, and were not allowed to land military personnelle for a similar length of time.

I understand that the State and City both have big question marks and some explaining to do: Specifically about how they utterly failed to try and evacuate those that were unable to leave and why the Police and later the National Guard were told to stop looters in preference to saving lives. It has to be said though they were under Federal pressure over the latter (you did see Bush on TV didnt you?)

However, just about all the aftermath cockups appear to be Federal, not State or City.

It was the Feds that stopped immediate aid coming in from Canada and the Caribean.

It was the Feds that ordered the way into/out of the city kept clear for FEMA, which stopped charitable aid getting in from other States and the Red Cross.

It was the Feds that wouldnt let the loaded FEMA convoy in Texas to go to the scene for 3 days, much to the surprise and chagrin of the drivers of said convoy.

It was the Feds that ordered the Naval Helicopters off the scene for 2 days.

It was the Feds that wouldnt allow National Guard/Regular Military help from other States for 2-3 days.

It was the Feds that decided that the 1st Firefighters into the area from other States main priority was a presidential photo opportunity ffs..

I'm not saying WHO in the Federal Hierarchy is to blame... Bush wouldnt get his hands dirty so he was good for nothing anyway. However it was most impolitic for the members of the administration to be going fundraising, to the opera, shopping etc etc etc... whilst their citizens were dying from the Federal fuckups.

Its also very coincidental that all these federal fuckups all stopped so that everything was coming into New Orleans at exactly the same time as the President. If one was cynical, one could easily point out that the chances of so many coincidences being timed so perfectly, is most unlikely.

And you, of course, believe all this stuff because it fits your imagined scenario, correct?

Just off the top of my head, wouldn't the Feds have been the ones to dispatch helios from a carrier to begin with, before, according to your google, they countermended their own order?

Silly.

If such shenanigans were the norm (as your historical posting would suggest), our media-which is NOT pro-Bush, BTW-would have fried his ass long before he ran for re-election, Rat.

Nobody, not even Clinton, would have been allowed to continue in any executive capacity pulling capers of that sort.

Use your head, man.

[lynx]

I'm sure someone will tell me if I've got this wrong, but doesn't the very fact that a Federal State of Emergency has been declared mean the the Governor and Mayor are effectively out of the loop? I thought that was done in order to create a clear chain of command.

[Rat Faced]

I posted a Timetable of things said in the Media..

The State declared a State of Emergency and requested Federal Aid and Troops before the Hurricane hit.

The National Guard that was available to the State (bearing in mind they were way undermanned due to a significant number being abroad somewhere) were initially told to keep the area clear for FEMA which was on the way..so they did, and FEMA wasn't. This meant that Charitable Aid wasn't allowed in on Federal orders and the Feds failed to materialise.

An Aircraft Carrier in the Gulf was the 1st to send helicopters into New Orleans.. these were ordered out of the area for 2 days by the Feds, and were not allowed to land military personnelle for a similar length of time.

I understand that the State and City both have big question marks and some explaining to do: Specifically about how they utterly failed to try and evacuate those that were unable to leave and why the Police and later the National Guard were told to stop looters in preference to saving lives. It has to be said though they were under Federal pressure over the latter (you did see Bush on TV didnt you?)

However, just about all the aftermath cockups appear to be Federal, not State or City.

It was the Feds that stopped immediate aid coming in from Canada and the Caribean.

It was the Feds that ordered the way into/out of the city kept clear for FEMA, which stopped charitable aid getting in from other States and the Red Cross.

It was the Feds that wouldnt let the loaded FEMA convoy in Texas to go to the scene for 3 days, much to the surprise and chagrin of the drivers of said convoy.

It was the Feds that ordered the Naval Helicopters off the scene for 2 days.

It was the Feds that wouldnt allow National Guard/Regular Military help from other States for 2-3 days.

It was the Feds that decided that the 1st Firefighters into the area from other States main priority was a presidential photo opportunity ffs..

I'm not saying WHO in the Federal Hierarchy is to blame... Bush wouldnt get his hands dirty so he was good for nothing anyway. However it was most impolitic for the members of the administration to be going fundraising, to the opera, shopping etc etc etc... whilst their citizens were dying from the Federal fuckups.

Its also very coincidental that all these federal fuckups all stopped so that everything was coming into New Orleans at exactly the same time as the President. If one was cynical, one could easily point out that the chances of so many coincidences being timed so perfectly, is most unlikely.

And you, of course, believe all this stuff because it fits your imagined scenario, correct?

Just off the top of my head, wouldn't the Feds have been the ones to dispatch helios from a carrier to begin with, before, according to your google, they countermended their own order?

Silly.

If such shenanigans were the norm (as your historical posting would suggest), our media-which is NOT pro-Bush, BTW-would have fried his ass long before he ran for re-election, Rat.

Nobody, not even Clinton, would have been allowed to continue in any executive capacity pulling capers of that sort.

Use your head, man.

Strange, because that "order of events" were things that were said in your media, on the dates that they said it.

Are you saying that your media told a lie when they said that the State had declared a State of Emergency and asked for Federal Help? The reports were published prior to the Hurricane.

I mean, various media sources were used..and the dates those articles were published nationally.

Are you saying that he National Guard troopers that were interviewed on TV were lying? That they were such good actors that some were nearly in tears at the orders they'd been given?

That the FEMA drivers were such good actors?

That the TV photoshoot was doctored to show Firemen that werent there with the Prez, that they were in fact helping in the Disaster Relief work that they'd volunteered for and gone for?

As to the carrier... there is such thing as initiative. Im pretty sure that if you or I had been in charge of a carrier we wouldnt have awaited orders to help in this case. The question is and should be "why was the carrier ordered to land their copters", not "why were the 'copters not ordered in"

My "Imagined Scenario", is merely taking the reports of your media, on the dates they were reported, and putting them together.

Your scenario is, by the looks of it, to accept whatever the whitehouse tells you happened, on the date that they said it happened... despite the fact they have already had to withdraw some of their statements as incorrect and untrue.

[whypikonme]

Your scenario is, by the looks of it, to accept whatever the whitehouse tells you happened, on the date that they said it happened...

Isn't that what being a Republican is all about?

[j2k4]

Your scenario is, by the looks of it, to accept whatever the whitehouse tells you happened, on the date that they said it happened... despite the fact they have already had to withdraw some of their statements as incorrect and untrue.

I suggest we re-visit the issue when all the investigations of the incident are completed; I'm aware you all are eager to continue picking at it in the meantime, but you will have to do it without me.

BTW- as a point of interest, given all that I have learned about "Able Danger" (google that, if you like) I've tossed my "Official" copy of the 9/11 Commission's report into the trash, as it's reference-value and accuracy are totally undermined by Able Danger and it's ramifications.

You guys love cover-up conspiracies, there's one for you...

[Rat Faced]

Your scenario is, by the looks of it, to accept whatever the whitehouse tells you happened, on the date that they said it happened... despite the fact they have already had to withdraw some of their statements as incorrect and untrue.

I suggest we re-visit the issue when all the investigations of the incident are completed; I'm aware you all are eager to continue picking at it in the meantime, but you will have to do it without me.

BTW- as a point of interest, given all that I have learned about "Able Danger" (google that, if you like) I've tossed my "Official" copy of the 9/11 Commission's report into the trash, as it's reference-value and accuracy are totally undermined by Able Danger and it's ramifications.

You guys love cover-up conspiracies, there's one for you...

As to the investigation, i'm sure most of us would love to... if we were sure there was going to be an independant investigation.

Never heard of Able Danger until you mentioned it here, however the 911 commission lost all credibility when people were allowed to testify without being under oath and were allowed to not bother testifying at all..

[j2k4]

I suggest we re-visit the issue when all the investigations of the incident are completed; I'm aware you all are eager to continue picking at it in the meantime, but you will have to do it without me.

BTW- as a point of interest, given all that I have learned about "Able Danger" (google that, if you like) I've tossed my "Official" copy of the 9/11 Commission's report into the trash, as it's reference-value and accuracy are totally undermined by Able Danger and it's ramifications.

You guys love cover-up conspiracies, there's one for you...

As to the investigation, i'm sure most of us would love to... if we were sure there was going to be an independant investigation.

Never heard of Able Danger until you mentioned it here, however the 911 commission lost all credibility when people were allowed to testify without being under oath and were allowed to not bother testifying at all..

As well as the fact the Commission itself was tainted by inclusion of one Jamie Gorelick, whose integral role in the Clinton administration's cover-up of it's role (or lack thereof) in fighting terrorists/-ism, which fact was overlooked/ignored by the commission and media.

I hear she lunched with Sandy Berger almost every day, back then.

Anyway-that's it for me here.

[Rat Faced]

I suppose the decision to give the bodycount contract to a family friend wont make any difference either... despite the fact that its sister company dumped 100s of bodies in woods in Florida to make room for more bodies in its cemetaries.

Kenyon is a subsidiary of SCI, owned by Waltrip who contributed to the Bush election campaign (father and son) and also contributed more than $100,000 to the George HW Bush Presidential Library.

Waltrip also owns the Menorah Gardens Cemetery chain.. who's general manager committed suicide in strange circumstances (carbon monoxide poisoning outside his parents house) after the scandal of the bodies came to light, and before he could be interogated.

Amazing how many people appear to commit suicide when investigations start that could implicate people in things huh?


However, the thing thats striking (other than the expected cronyism) is that even when under pressure of a badly bungled response..he is still willing to hire a company with a proven track record of gross mismanagement of mortuary services.

[vidcc]

A reliable factcheck of the events so far. Non partisan