Syria Is Next!

[j2k4]

Originally posted by Rat Faced@21 May 2003 - 12:08
Why j2k4?

Prior to the Iraq/Iran war, which wasnt so long ago, this was a very westernised country.

It had, a very advanced education and health service (the Health Service was probably better than that available in most of the USA, and certainly most of the UK). The education system was not religion orientated, but concentrated on the same aspects taught in any western school system.

Unlike most of the Arab states in the region, which havent 'tasted' the benefits of western culture, I would say a minimum of involvement by the USA would be necessary.

The sooner the 'rebuilding' is turned over to the UN the better.

I can't agree-

Saddam was new enough to the leadership game at that point he hadn't yet gotten around to siphoning off the cash for self-aggrandizement, and most of it was going to the war effort anyway. Once the war ended, he began his plunder; I believe this is one of the reasons getting rid of Saddam was so critical now-there are still people alive in Iraq who remember life as it was (per your post) 'pre-Saddam', and they will prove an asset now.

The U.N. is corrupt, and needs re-organization if it is to survive as a viable entity.
All one needs to determine this is a look at organizational tables and the make-up of the various councils; it's a joke.
Check it out; see some of the funny places where Iraq, Iran, China, Cuba, et.al. appear-you'll see what I mean.

[Rat Faced]

Once the war ended, he began his plunder

As I said, PRIOR to the Iraq/Iran war....

The U.N. is corrupt, and needs re-organization if it is to survive as a viable entity.

I agree, as is the US Government ( and most other 'Democratic' governments).

The difference is, that US companies dont 'control' the UN, as they do the US government, they only have undue influence through the US Government (ie buyng votes with Aid)

[j2k4]

Originally posted by Rat Faced@21 May 2003 - 13:53

Once the war ended, he began his plunder

As I said, PRIOR to the Iraq/Iran war....

My mistake; my point was "Pre-Saddam"-I'm afraid I crossed my own wires.

Re: the U.N.: then if you agree that the U.N. is corrupt, and believe the U.S. to be, likewise, what then is the difference to the Iraqis?

I am positive we can better accomplish ANYTHING than the U.N. can, and any monetary benefit (doubtful) or liability (likely) will accrue to the U.S., and not the U.N.-fair enough?

As an aside, I see no problem with Iraq financing infrastructure with oil revenues; it's better used there than to rebuild palaces.

[OlderThanDirt]

sara5564 wrote:

Nobody forget.....North Korea has the 5th largest armed forces in the world.

Remember the brouhaha between India and Pakistan over Kashmir? It's still going on, of course. But back a while, many believed it was headed toward the boiling point of nuclear confrontation. The US sent Colin Powell there to try to make peace. No cigar. Then the Russians sent a diplomat there for the same purpose. Again, no cigar. But, then the Chinese very quitely sent a 4-man diplomatic team to the region. All of sudden, things got quiet.

The nice (predictable) thing about China is it always looks after #1 (itself). Just to the North of India and Pakistan is China's heartland ... their wheat-growing region which would be in the line of a fallout path. I suspect China told them both that they have the LARGEST armed force in the world ... and that, if they felt a knife being held to their agricultural throat, Chinese troops would be paying them a visit.

Likewise with North Korea. The Korean peninsula is just South of China's major population centers. The last thing they want is a nuclear confrontation there. It's China, not the USA, that will eventually be the peacemaker there. While North Korea's gripes with the USA are fodder for the mainstream media, their gripes with China are closer to home. They rely on China for their very existence. Once, Kim Il Jung threatened China that if they didn't increase their oil-flow, he'd open up the border and allow a million refugees into enter the country. China responded by temporarily cutting off the oil-flow altogether ... but (ahem) said it was the fault of a technical glitch. Kim Il Jung got the message. And, I imagine he's also been visited by Chinese diplomats who reminded him that his "5th largest army" might become part of the upper atmosphere unless he tows the line.

[j2k4]

Originally posted by OlderThanDirt@24 May 2003 - 17:39

sara5564 wrote:

Nobody forget.....North Korea has the 5th largest armed forces in the world.

Remember the brouhaha between India and Pakistan over Kashmir? It's still going on, of course. But back a while, many believed it was headed toward the boiling point of nuclear confrontation. The US sent Colin Powell there to try to make peace. No cigar. Then the Russians sent a diplomat there for the same purpose. Again, no cigar. But, then the Chinese very quitely sent a 4-man diplomatic team to the region. All of sudden, things got quiet.

The nice (predictable) thing about China is it always looks after #1 (itself). Just to the North of India and Pakistan is China's heartland ... their wheat-growing region which would be in the line of a fallout path. I suspect China told them both that they have the LARGEST armed force in the world ... and that, if they felt a knife being held to their agricultural throat, Chinese troops would be paying them a visit.

Likewise with North Korea. The Korean peninsula is just South of China's major population centers. The last thing they want is a nuclear confrontation there. It's China, not the USA, that will eventually be the peacemaker there. While North Korea's gripes with the USA are fodder for the mainstream media, their gripes with China are closer to home. They rely on China for their very existence. Once, Kim Il Jung threatened China that if they didn't increase their oil-flow, he'd open up the border and allow a million refugees into enter the country. China responded by temporarily cutting off the oil-flow altogether ... but (ahem) said it was the fault of a technical glitch. Kim Il Jung got the message. And, I imagine he's also been visited by Chinese diplomats who reminded him that his "5th largest army" might become part of the upper atmosphere unless he tows the line.

Just so-

I've tried to point this out to those who preferred that we worry about South Korea over Iraq; China doesn't need to many cues to pull on the leash.

Thank you for your treatise, OTD.

[OlderThanDirt]

Thought I'd add a little humor into the mix. What follows is a time-traveler's depiction of the United States in 2006 if we hadn't decided to take terror seriously:

A Burger King Restaurant:


A Kentucky Fried Chicken ad poster:


A McDonald's Restaurant:


The New York City skyline:


A Playboy Magazine cover:


The Statue of Liberty:


A new Microsoft Windows menu screen:

[j2k4]

You 53 year-olds really have it goin' on with the imagery, eh?

Now, sit back and see who 'doesn't get it'.....

GOOD STUFF!

[echidna]

Originally posted by myfiles3000+19 April 2003 - 08:58--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (myfiles3000 @ 19 April 2003 - 08:58)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--ne1GotZardoz@18 April 2003 - 13:20
Receiving a microchip at birth...It will solve all government control problems, and (believe it or not), it will rob most us of much fewer freedoms than the alternative police state that could be required.

There&#39;s no reason to believe that identity theft woulnd&#39;t exist in a world of implanted chips. Despite increased security measures in the past decade or so, ID theft is at an all-time high. Can anyone name me a single security measure or device that hasn&#39;t eventually been cracked? What&#39;s stopping someone from replacing the original chip with a different one, or configuring the one they have? I thought this board was populated by sci fi fans, how can you such faith in technology with books like necromancer around? [/b][/quote]
all this talk of chips is academic and irrelevant
they&#39;re already starting to do these things with biometrics
in SA the social security system for the townships have had to go to extreme lengths to prevent fraud [making hand print and iris scanning devices that tested to make sure that the hand or eye was still alive before verifying - to stop people taking others pensions by cutting off their hand or taking their eye]
and in the USA facial recognition tech which can locate all individuals within a CCTV network was deployed for the first time publicly at the super-bowl after S11
so this big brother system doesn&#39;t need us to get any chips
we all already have unique identifiers
ATMs and checkouts with cameras
passport free airports, [your visa is attached to your facial record]

[echidna]

Originally posted by j2k4+25 May 2003 - 09:01--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (j2k4 @ 25 May 2003 - 09:01)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--OlderThanDirt@24 May 2003 - 17:39

sara5564 wrote:

Nobody forget.....North Korea has the 5th largest armed forces in the world.

Remember the brouhaha between India and Pakistan over Kashmir? It&#39;s still going on, of course. But back a while, many believed it was headed toward the boiling point of nuclear confrontation. The US sent Colin Powell there to try to make peace. No cigar. Then the Russians sent a diplomat there for the same purpose. Again, no cigar. But, then the Chinese very quitely sent a 4-man diplomatic team to the region. All of sudden, things got quiet.

The nice (predictable) thing about China is it always looks after #1 (itself). Just to the North of India and Pakistan is China&#39;s heartland ... their wheat-growing region which would be in the line of a fallout path. I suspect China told them both that they have the LARGEST armed force in the world ... and that, if they felt a knife being held to their agricultural throat, Chinese troops would be paying them a visit.

Likewise with North Korea. The Korean peninsula is just South of China&#39;s major population centers. The last thing they want is a nuclear confrontation there. It&#39;s China, not the USA, that will eventually be the peacemaker there. While North Korea&#39;s gripes with the USA are fodder for the mainstream media, their gripes with China are closer to home. They rely on China for their very existence. Once, Kim Il Jung threatened China that if they didn&#39;t increase their oil-flow, he&#39;d open up the border and allow a million refugees into enter the country. China responded by temporarily cutting off the oil-flow altogether ... but (ahem) said it was the fault of a technical glitch. Kim Il Jung got the message. And, I imagine he&#39;s also been visited by Chinese diplomats who reminded him that his "5th largest army" might become part of the upper atmosphere unless he tows the line.

Just so-

I&#39;ve tried to point this out to those who preferred that we worry about South Korea over Iraq; China doesn&#39;t need to many cues to pull on the leash.

Thank you for your treatise, OTD. [/b][/quote]
i wish the US would realise, as i think all nations in SE asia have, that the truth is in the numbers and china is the longterm power base worldwide
the tactics of the US are too volatile, seeking to gain position through the destabilisation of others positions, this policy has only been in effect for the last 170 odd years and it&#39;s escalation has been very rapid
while china has effectively been consolidating through many cultural incarnations for over a thousand years, concentrating on their position in the world rather than the world position compared to them
they are proven over immense time and the shear numbers means that they are the
i&#39;m not wishing for a return to the &#39;splendid isolationism&#39; of the early 20th century but i believe lessons can be learnt from the cultural diplomacy of chinese people
i&#39;m sure almost everyone on this board would have met a chinese person even if only through buying food or something, chinese people are in the communities of almost all nations
but there are few americans overseas that you meet, most US people OS are tourists and most north americans who live south of canada that i have met working have jobs which they travel with and so aren&#39;t involved with the community

i just think that yum cha is a better persuasion tool than TV or JDAMs

the game that the US is playing here is very dangerous
if the arab states are too destabilised by interventions the blow-back for the US will be horrendous
the notion that these policies will promote security is ridiculous
and the financial and societal costs of these policies are unsustainable
i hope that the US people haven&#39;t lost all control over their govt.
we should not forget what good people who do nothing can allow

[j2k4]

Echidna-

You are not entirely off-base, here.

I&#39;ve always been curious at China&#39;s political &#39;recalcitrance&#39;, which, I suspect, is actually smugness.

They KNOW they will eventually (just HOW eventually is up in the air) dominate due to their sheer numbers; even given their clumsy methods of population control, their level of technological development gives them the edge over India in this regard.

In light of all this, when the North American/North European decline is complete, and the "white" races are gone, the only conflict left will be between Asian and Islamic peoples.

I don&#39;t know if our fellow debaters are aware of our impending "doom", but as none of this is likely to happen in our lifetime, I, for one, will be happy to
&#39;go&#39; with the current flow. B)