US petition

[Busyman]

You did not answer my questions regarding your children and whether you'd torture an offender to get your kids out of imminent danger either 'cause you would do nothing and you'd let your children die or you'd torture the offender thus reducing your argument to rubble.

Both Rat and JP know sometimes it is necessary. It's the dirty little fact of life that puts them in denial.

The fact that you see torture as necessary speaks volumes about you, not other people.

It's not necessary all the time.

It would have to go on a case by case basis.

What speaks volumes is that when it comes down to it, you would curl up and die and allow your children to die (and your wife and friends).

I would not.

The problem that I see regarding torture is that I think governments sometimes have a low justification for it.

[Agrajag]

Your argument is no more than, "the end justifies the means", no matter how much you want to spin it.

No, it is the head on head collision of philsophy with reality. It is testing the limits of a statement.

It is like saying that abortion is wrong. Then realizing special circumstances such as rape or when the pregnancy will cause complications that will mean the death of the mother.

I created for you a scenario which you refuse to answer. Please answer it. You are not in your comfy home, telling interweb people how they should act, but in the battlefield, in the above scenario.

Ready, action!

I am in my comfy home, as it happens. However I am not telling anyone how they should act. I am expressing my opinion on what is right and what is wrong.

Your argument is still no more sophisticated than "the end justifies the means" and well you know it.

[hobbes]

I am in my comfy home, as it happens. However I am not telling anyone how they should act. I am expressing my opinion on what is right and what is wrong.

Your argument is still no more sophisticated than "the end justifies the means" and well you know it.

On the contrary, I have been attempting to point out that this is not the case.

Lets make the point crystal clear in that the enemy will not be detonating a bomb, but releasing a powerful nerve gas which will painfully kill your fellow soldiers.

On one hand your have the rights of the enemy not to be tortured, on the other you have the rights of your soldiers not to be tortured.

On must simply make a choice.

You may either violate the rights of your enemy, who is actively attempting to torture, or violate the rights of your fellow soldiers as you watch them suffer.

To me this is equivalent to favoring abortion when the pregnancy will cause the death of the Mother. A choice must be made.

Special circumstances, case by case scenarios, that's what I'm talking about when I say, "I can envision unique circumstances arising in the setting of war in which I could see a justification for torture". It is not a popular thing to say, but I call them as I see them.

[Agrajag]

I am in my comfy home, as it happens. However I am not telling anyone how they should act. I am expressing my opinion on what is right and what is wrong.

Your argument is still no more sophisticated than "the end justifies the means" and well you know it.

On the contrary, I have been attempting to point out that this is not the case.

Lets make the point crystal clear in that the enemy will not be detonating a bomb, but releasing a powerful nerve gas which will painfully kill your fellow soldiers.

On one hand your have the rights of the enemy not to be tortured, on the other you have the rights of your soldiers not to be tortured.

On must simply make a choice.

You may either violate the rights of your enemy, who is actively attempting to torture, or violate the rights of your fellow soldiers as you watch them suffer.

To me this is equivalent to favoring abortion when the pregnancy will cause the death of the Mother. A choice must be made.

Special circumstances, case by case scenarios, that's what I'm talking about when I say, "I can envision unique circumstances arising in the setting of war in which I could see a justification for torture". It is not a popular thing to say, but I call them as I see them.

Which is still, "the end justifies the means", just with "fancy dan" decoration.

[Busyman]

On the contrary, I have been attempting to point out that this is not the case.

Lets make the point crystal clear in that the enemy will not be detonating a bomb, but releasing a powerful nerve gas which will painfully kill your fellow soldiers.

On one hand your have the rights of the enemy not to be tortured, on the other you have the rights of your soldiers not to be tortured.

On must simply make a choice.

You may either violate the rights of your enemy, who is actively attempting to torture, or violate the rights of your fellow soldiers as you watch them suffer.

To me this is equivalent to favoring abortion when the pregnancy will cause the death of the Mother. A choice must be made.

Special circumstances, case by case scenarios, that's what I'm talking about when I say, "I can envision unique circumstances arising in the setting of war in which I could see a justification for torture". It is not a popular thing to say, but I call them as I see them.

Which is still, "the end justifies the means", just with "fancy dan" decoration.

Sometimes it does.

[Agrajag]

Which is still, "the end justifies the means", just with "fancy dan" decoration.

Sometimes it does.

At least you admit that you feel that way.

[Busyman]

Sometimes it does.

At least you admit that you feel that way.

CaptainObvious.

You gotta take things on a case by case basis.

Torturing an offender to give me the combination or whateverthefuck to save my wife and kids from imminent danger is a no-brainer for me.

The end - my wife and kids are alive. The means - torture

Torturing some fella for the combination to a million dollars is despicable.

The end - I'm reeeotch, beeotch. The means - torture

[Agrajag]

At least you admit that you feel that way.

CaptainObvious.

You gotta take things on a case by case basis.

Torturing an offender to give me the combination or whateverthefuck to save my wife and kids from imminent danger is a no-brainer for me.

The end - my wife and kids are alive. The means - torture

Torturing some fella for the combination to a million dollars is despicable.

The end - I'm reeeotch, beeotch. The means - torture

WWJD

[j2k4]

CaptainObvious.

You gotta take things on a case by case basis.

Torturing an offender to give me the combination or whateverthefuck to save my wife and kids from imminent danger is a no-brainer for me.

The end - my wife and kids are alive. The means - torture

Torturing some fella for the combination to a million dollars is despicable.

The end - I'm reeeotch, beeotch. The means - torture

WWJD

A very good question, that.

To continue, what would your reaction be should you discover that your government (a signatory to the non-torture/human-rights instrument you have quoted) has indeed engaged in torture of purported participants in an imminent terrorist act?

I guess what I'm asking is whether (from your comfy home) you could consider for us the possibility that merely thinking a course of action correct (which quality may even be philosophically provable) does not preclude a human failure and departure from the desired behavior?

Would you be just, like, totally destroyed, and have to move to Canada?

And what about the drugs, BTW?

If there were no ill-effect, that is...

[hobbes]

[QUOTE=Agrajag]

Which is still, "the end justifies the means", just with "fancy dan" decoration.

No a choice has to made. Whether you do it by acting or not acting, a choice is made.

What is with this "end justifies the means" obsession. Did you read this in a nice little book and decide that it was some absolute truth which had no exception. Seems to me, it, like any piece of sound advice, at some point it breaks down.

Seems to me you just keep repeating it like some Tourettian mantra and just as the Tourettes' child can do amazingly quick math calculations, in application of this to the real world, he can't even figure our how much a candy bar costs.

Philosophy/ reality must at some point meet.