Originally Posted by hobbes
I think it's a glib thing.
I just don't believe that torture is OK, sometimes.
Which is the substance of your argument.
Just Lame
I think it's a glib thing.
I just don't believe that torture is OK, sometimes.
Which is the substance of your argument.
Lagomorph
So you let those people die?
I think it's a glib thing.
I just don't believe that torture is OK, sometimes.
Which is the substance of your argument.
Yes/No.
Aren't we in the trust tree, thingey?
Just Lame
Still the same argument "the end justifies the means.".So you let those people die?
Yes/No.
If that's OK with you, cool.
Broken
I never said that.Ohhh Rat....that's so sweeping. Are you saying now that torture never works?
I said it was counter productive and causes more problems than it solves.
You act on "intelligence" that is false, then dig yourself into a deeper hole that "requires" more torture. You will not know if the intelligence is false until you act upon it.
Its a vicious circle with a lot of innocents gettng hurt, and creating more enemies.
There have been numerous cases where people have been "caught" specifically so they can be tortured and give false information, to lead the enemy into a trap of some sort.
I agree however, all Intelligence Agencies use it.. however illegal it is in their particular country. They always have, and always will.
However there are surer means of getting the information.
Torture is quick, but the intelligence is shaky at best.
Drugs/Brainwashing/Psychology/Hypnosis and combinations of these methods are sure... but a lot slower, and require skill in their use so there are a lot fewer people that can actually do it properly.
Im not saying this is "right" and "moral" either.. just stating facts.
The only reason Torture has been exposed was due to the shear numbers of suspects they needed to "question", the vast majority of which were innocent of any crime. They cant let them go now though... as their treatment has ensured that the 1st thing they do now will be to join the insurgents. Way to go.
As to the guy with the bomb Hobbes?
Would you trust the numbers he gave you?
Im bloody sure i wouldnt... if the bomb goes off, thats what he wanted anyway.
The torture stops either way.. the true numbers or the false.
With the false ones, he gets to take out a couple of the bastards that allowed torture as well as the innocents.
Last edited by Rat Faced; 11-24-2005 at 04:54 PM.
An It Harm None, Do What You Will
Lagomorph
Rat, I created a hypothetical scenario.
You have chosen to nitpick the actual mechanisms of how might unfold.
We have a robot that is going to go over to the keypad and punch the numbers. You assure the prisoner that the torture will continue for the weeks and monthe to follow if the bomb goes off.
I would torture that person to save the lives of those in the building, would you?
Yes/No.
Last edited by hobbes; 11-24-2005 at 06:22 PM.
Aren't we in the trust tree, thingey?
Use Logic Or STFU!!!
Good lord, I don't advocate mass torture to possibly come up with a tidbit of nothing.I never said that.Ohhh Rat....that's so sweeping. Are you saying now that torture never works?
I said it was counter productive and causes more problems than it solves.
You act on "intelligence" that is false, then dig yourself into a deeper hole that "requires" more torture. You will not know if the intelligence is false until you act upon it.
Its a vicious circle with a lot of innocents gettng hurt, and creating more enemies.
There have been numerous cases where people have been "caught" specifically so they can be tortured and give false information, to lead the enemy into a trap of some sort.
I agree however, all Intelligence Agencies use it.. however illegal it is in their particular country. They always have, and always will.
However there are surer means of getting the information.
Torture is quick, but the intelligence is shaky at best.
Drugs/Brainwashing/Psychology/Hypnosis and combinations of these methods are sure... but a lot slower, and require skill in their use so there are a lot fewer people that can actually do it properly.
Im not saying this is "right" and "moral" either.. just stating facts.
The only reason Torture has been exposed was due to the shear numbers of suspects they needed to "question", the vast majority of which were innocent of any crime. They cant let them go now though... as their treatment has ensured that the 1st thing they do now will be to join the insurgents. Way to go.
As to the guy with the bomb Hobbes?
Would you trust the numbers he gave you?
Im bloody sure i wouldnt... if the bomb goes off, thats what he wanted anyway.
The torture stops either way.. the true numbers or the false.
With the false ones, he gets to take out a couple of the bastards that allowed torture as well as the innocents.
I know some scenarios where I can see using it. It's a last resort type thang ya see.
The thing is there are a number of scenarios that are considered torture and I disagree with that.
NOT feeding a prisoner properly springs to mind.
Silly bitch, your weapons cannot harm me. Don't you know who I am? I'm the Juggernaut, Bitchhhh!
Flies Like An Arrow, Flies Like An Apple
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>H
Rat, I created a hypothetical scenario.
You have chosen to nitpick the actual mechanisms of how might unfold.
We have a robot that is going to go over to the keypad and punch the numbers. You assure the prisoner that the torture will continue for the weeks and monthe to follow if the bomb goes off.
I would torture that person to save the lives of those in the building, would you?
Yes/No.
Actually he has simply pointed out what is woefully obvious, if someone doesn't want to give you info and yet you force them to talk, chances are they are going to lie. Its not rocket science.
In the scenario you gave it also strikes me as unlikely that you would know who the bomber is (i rather doubt you'd be waiting till a trial has been carried out) so basically you're not only suggesting torture, but also presumption of guilt. Chances are you'd have a list of suspects, most of whom are innocent of this particular crime. How many would you willingly torture to get an answer?
Busy, if it was your family then obviously theres nothing you wouldn't consider, but its like the death penalty argument (ie you would want to kill someone who had murdered a family member) we're talking about what the state will allow and will carry out and the argument is therefore about what fairly impassionate and uninvolved people should be doing.
Would you be ok with torturing americans on the mainland US?
Legitimising torture is basically the same as popularising it.
edit: 1/2 the quote was missing
Broken
No.
Rat, I created a hypothetical scenario.
You have chosen to nitpick the actual mechanisms of how might unfold.
We have a robot that is going to go over to the keypad and punch the numbers. You assure the prisoner that the torture will continue for the weeks and monthe to follow if the bomb goes off.
I would torture that person to save the lives of those in the building, would you?
Yes/No.
Even if my kids were in there. In fact i'd be LESS likely to use torture if they were.
The only time torture can give reliable intelligence of any sort is when enough people are being "interrogated" that a pattern emerges. How many people have you interrogated before seeing a pattern?
How many were innocent, or at least neutral, until you turned them into enemies?
And the again the moral issue... the terrorist, in his mind, is acting for the best in the long run, even if you dont agree with him. He is justifying the end with the means.
What gives you the arrogance to think your right when using the same tecniques that you condemn in them?
In addition.. once you have a reputation for using those methods, it is very hard to get rid of that reputation and mistrust.
Just look at our countries now to see this as fact.
How many years sinse slavery was abolished? And yet the whole of the western world is still living with the distrust and sometimes hatred between races on that one issue.
Turkey used to have a horrendous record on Human Rights. It is infinitely better than it was, and yet its neighbours still distrust it and will for years. Hell, they cant even get into the EU... even Cyprus (which isnt recognised as a country by some EU members) managed that, as did a fair few Eastern European countries.
An It Harm None, Do What You Will
Lagomorph
What could possibly be woefully and obviously lacking in a hypothetical scenario? It is a mental excercise to test a point. Got it?
Actually he has simply pointed out what is woefully obvious, if someone doesn't want to give you info and yet you force them to talk, chances are they are going to lie. Its not rocket science.
In the scenario you gave it also strikes me as unlikely that you would know who the bomber is (i rather doubt you'd be waiting till a trial has been carried out) so basically you're not only suggesting torture, but also presumption of guilt. Chances are you'd have a list of suspects, most of whom are innocent of this particular crime. How many would you willingly torture to get an answer?
You have a situation, and you must make a decision.
What can you live with? These guys about to die are the ones you have fought with, shit with, bonded with since boot camp. You caught the guy who planted the bomb. That bomb is going to go off.
Do you want your Sargent to tell you that if you so much as touch your prisioner you will get Court Martialed and jailed or do want the option to do what you can to save the people you have sworn to protect.
I torture and save my men. Torture is a last option and one that should be left to the people in charge as a judgement call. A judgement they should be required to defend, as I have this one.
You never know what situations may arise in a war zone and what decisions may need to be made. I have created an example of such a situation and have stated that "no torture, no exceptions" doesn't work for me.
I take exception to the the no exception rule.
The only thing that motivates a man who is anxious to die, is not letting him do so and letting him feel very much alive, through pain.
Yes/no.
Last edited by hobbes; 11-24-2005 at 08:23 PM.
Aren't we in the trust tree, thingey?
Broken
No Hobbes,
your talking of beating the crap out of someone, not torture.
I think everyone has felt like that occasionally, and quite frankly given your example, so would i.
Whilst it would yield little in the way of intelligence, it would make me feel better. That doesnt make it right.
Torture is a skill, not beating the shit out of someone.
Im sure you know this, as you do know your history... Torturers were not your run of the mill thugs, and still aren't. They must apply just the right amount of pain that the subject doesnt lose consiousness.. If you know exactly how to do this, then you scare me.
I'd say that 99% of trained soldiers couldnt. (excluding special forces)
An It Harm None, Do What You Will
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