US petition

[j2k4]

Again, not a popular thing to say, but I have to talk the truth. If my daughter were the captive and I had to sit there politely and watch the perp sit snug as a bug in his cell, eating 3 squares, I think I would literally explode.

Could you try to make that more emotive.

I love rabble rousers, they are cool.

I particularly liked the bits where you used the word "perp", assuming guilt. "snug as a bug" implying prison was cosy and "3 squares", telling the reader that they were paying for this chaps keep.

Really rather nice manipulation. Are you a politician at all.

You slay me, but only figuratively.

Are you a professional heckler or "egger-onner" at all, at all.

Hobbes does indeed raise rabble, but on the side; there's no real money in it, you see.

When I was younger, I used to hustle rabble in bars and taverns for pocket money, but grew out of it.

I hope I don't get a spamming rip from you-know-who over this post...I don't know if I could handle another one.

[Busyman]

Could you try to make that more emotive.

I love rabble rousers, they are cool.

I particularly liked the bits where you used the word "perp", assuming guilt. "snug as a bug" implying prison was cosy and "3 squares", telling the reader that they were paying for this chaps keep.

Really rather nice manipulation. Are you a politician at all.

You slay me, but only figuratively.

Are you a professional heckler or "egger-onner" at all, at all.

Hobbes does indeed raise rabble, but on the side; there's no real money in it, you see.

When I was younger, I used to hustle rabble in bars and taverns for pocket money, but grew out of it.

I hope I don't get a spamming rip from you-know-who over this post...I don't know if I could handle another one.

You be at 10,000 posts in no time.......spamming cunt.

[Biggles]

I haven't had time to read all this yet but there are a couple of points that have reaised their heads on this topic in the wider media.

Firstly, one or two EU countries (Poland being one) have been accused of hosting secret prisons and torture units.

If so, they are deep doo doo. They have signed agreements on human rights and will be fined heavily if this is verified.

Secondly, the only vestige of a fig leaf Bush and Blair have left on Iraq is that Saddam was a bad man who tortured people (largely, ironically, the same people we now appear to be torturing - Islamic militants).

Hobbes is right in that human rights and not torturing people is a relatively modern concept. The Church (both Catholic and Protestant) were very big on it a few hundred years ago. There is a natural urge to want to get back at those who are perceived as the enemy.

However, what history tells us is that the tortured confess to anything and tell their torturers what they want to hear. Those on the side of the tortured swear revenge and so the bloody cycle goes on.

The use of torture and the, what can only be described as insane, idea to blow up the Al Jazeera offices in Dubai would suggest to the watching world that our feet are made of the grubbiest of clay. It is time to get a new set of feet and some decent metal polish.

[suprafreak6]

they dont work, and your an athiest whats cool

[Biggles]

?

[j2k4]

You slay me, but only figuratively.

Are you a professional heckler or "egger-onner" at all, at all.

Hobbes does indeed raise rabble, but on the side; there's no real money in it, you see.

When I was younger, I used to hustle rabble in bars and taverns for pocket money, but grew out of it.

I hope I don't get a spamming rip from you-know-who over this post...I don't know if I could handle another one.

You be at 10,000 posts in no time.......spamming cunt.

I was thinking of a different you-know-who, but thanks for thinking of me.

[j2k4]

I haven't had time to read all this yet but there are a couple of points that have reaised their heads on this topic in the wider media.

Firstly, one or two EU countries (Poland being one) have been accused of hosting secret prisons and torture units.

If so, they are deep doo doo. They have signed agreements on human rights and will be fined heavily if this is verified.

Secondly, the only vestige of a fig leaf Bush and Blair have left on Iraq is that Saddam was a bad man who tortured people (largely, ironically, the same people we now appear to be torturing - Islamic militants).

Hobbes is right in that human rights and not torturing people is a relatively modern concept. The Church (both Catholic and Protestant) were very big on it a few hundred years ago. There is a natural urge to want to get back at those who are perceived as the enemy.

However, what history tells us is that the tortured confess to anything and tell their torturers what they want to hear. Those on the side of the tortured swear revenge and so the bloody cycle goes on.

The use of torture and the, what can only be described as insane, idea to blow up the Al Jazeera offices in Dubai would suggest to the watching world that our feet are made of the grubbiest of clay. It is time to get a new set of feet and some decent metal polish.

What has become a bit obscured is the fact that the critics are objecting/referring to the more benign methodologies (sleep deprivation, sensory overload, etc.) as incredibly heinous and brutal.

When such trespasses are viewed as equivalent to bamboo shoots, electrified genitalia, physical beatings and the like, we end up with no effective way to properly hone the points we wish to debate.

I am a fan of black-and-white debate, and generally abhor those who come equipped with palettes of varying shades of gray, but there are occasions when distinctions must be made; I feel this is one of them.

I've made a bit of light of the issue of chemical treatments as a means of procuring information, but the actual use of (for example) sodium pentathol doesn't produce any lasting effect, and there are surely other options as well.

What many seem to object to more than anything else is that any particular method may actually be foolproof, and thus constitutes an unfair advantage, especially when the "no harm" aspect renders the "brutal and heinous" arguments (as well as those who use them) moot.

EDIT:

I forgot to make my most important point.

Actual torture (insofar as it is actually occurs) is likely done for reasons of personal animosity on the parts of captors/keepers rather than as part of any generally accepted practice, for precisely those reasons Rat and Les have pointed out (they are not ultimately effective) and what is objected to are the methods I have alluded to, which, by dint of those who insist on objecting, are conducted under such cover as is practicable.

[Busyman]

You be at 10,000 posts in no time.......spamming cunt.

I was thinking of a different you-know-who, but thanks for thinking of me.

I know but was encouraged to step in since they don't frequent here (unless it's to do a spamming rip).

They may have missed your post but keep in mind it's only me they follow.

[j2k4]

I was thinking of a different you-know-who, but thanks for thinking of me.

I know but was encouraged to step in since they don't frequent here (unless it's to do a spamming rip).

They may have missed your post but keep in mind it's only me they follow.

The one I speak of watches me much more closely than he does you, B.

[Busyman]

I haven't had time to read all this yet but there are a couple of points that have reaised their heads on this topic in the wider media.

Firstly, one or two EU countries (Poland being one) have been accused of hosting secret prisons and torture units.

If so, they are deep doo doo. They have signed agreements on human rights and will be fined heavily if this is verified.

Secondly, the only vestige of a fig leaf Bush and Blair have left on Iraq is that Saddam was a bad man who tortured people (largely, ironically, the same people we now appear to be torturing - Islamic militants).

Hobbes is right in that human rights and not torturing people is a relatively modern concept. The Church (both Catholic and Protestant) were very big on it a few hundred years ago. There is a natural urge to want to get back at those who are perceived as the enemy.

However, what history tells us is that the tortured confess to anything and tell their torturers what they want to hear. Those on the side of the tortured swear revenge and so the bloody cycle goes on.

The use of torture and the, what can only be described as insane, idea to blow up the Al Jazeera offices in Dubai would suggest to the watching world that our feet are made of the grubbiest of clay. It is time to get a new set of feet and some decent metal polish.

What has become a bit obscured is the fact that the critics are objecting/referring to the more benign methodologies (sleep deprivation, sensory overload, etc.) as incredibly heinous and brutal.

When such trespasses are viewed as equivalent to bamboo shoots, electrified genitalia, physical beatings and the like, we end up with no effective way to properly hone the points we wish to debate.

I am a fan of black-and-white debate, and generally abhor those who come equipped with palettes of varying shades of gray, but there are occasions when distinctions must be made; I feel this is one of them.

I've made a bit of light of the issue of chemical treatments as a means of procuring information, but the actual use of (for example) sodium pentathol doesn't produce any lasting effect, and there are surely other options as well.

What many seem to object to more than anything else is that any particular method may actually be foolproof, and thus constitutes an unfair advantage, especially when the "no harm" aspect renders the "brutal and heinous" arguments (as well as those who use them) moot.

OMG j2 but if we deprive a prisoner of sleep we have reduced ourselves to the roles of barbarians.

That's just not right. I mean Saddam beat the shit out of folks so we definitely can't go around keeping folks from their 8 hours of rest. We have to be gentlemanly and stuff. If we show our prisoners how nice we are, they will like us and the wars will stop and whatnot.