US petition

[Busyman]

Well, damn...I haven't deigned to read it. You whatchu sayin'?

He wasn't trying to patronize you.

You're only black, and have not the slightest idea of the ordeal we (both of us) conservatives face on a daily basis.

Oh ok. Now I feel better.

Btw, I'm not just black. I do have a tiny red stripe going down my left arm. It's just hard to see 'cause I'm so black.

[3RA1N1AC]

I do have a tiny red stripe going down my left arm.

going down your arm? most people prefer the red stripe to go down their pie-hole.

[Mr JP Fugley]

All is fair in love and war.

One may establish a Geneva Convention to allow two foes to establish rules of conduct.

If one decides to chop off heads and make a video and the other feels compelled to give prisoners 3 squares a day and a pleasant cell, I call bullshit.

I am not better than torture for such a foe. That sort of ideologic chatter is for those who have no personal stake in a war and sit in the drawing room sipping brandy and telling people how they should act.

If lives can be saved by turning screws when up against an enemy that has no interest in observing any rules of conduct, then I say, "Git her done".

Above it, no way.

I'll grind their bones to make my bread.

Vidcc, you flip out when a kindergarten teacher tells your child to kick in a simulated karate leasson. Imagine your same child the subject of a torture/ execution video. You will find that your "better than that" dissociated philosophy will desintegrate into a "ride 'til we find them, kill them all" mentality.

"Better than that"? Brandy sipping words from someone who has nothing precious at stake.

They stab one of your's, you shoot one of their's.

Nah, you must not allow yourself to lower your civilized standards, just because your enemy did it first. That just isn't right.

Has Star Trek taught us nothing.

[Gripper]

When you are fighting fanatics who are willing to die for their beliefs,how far do you go,surely there are drugs today that'll make you sing like a bird,if that fails get pissed with them and they'll tell you allsorts

[hobbes]

They stab one of your's, you shoot one of their's.

Nah, you must not allow yourself to lower your civilized standards, just because your enemy did it first. That just isn't right.

Has Star Trek taught us nothing.

I want to clearly point that I am totally against what happened at Abu Garab prison. It was done, NOT to extract military information, simply to allow some of our sickos to have fun, with tacit approval from above.

I think that most Americans were embarrassed by what happened there and we all felt that "we are better than that". And we either are or should be.

Trouble is that what was done there was already illegal, it just wasn't enforced. So, I think responders in this thread sort of have already echoed the pointlessness of said petition. You can put anything you want on paper, but without enforcement it is worthless.

I think that routine torture and humilation is completely unacceptable. It reallyaccomplishes nothing and is, in fact, great propaganda for the other side once such behavior is known.

Most of those poor Iraq soldiers were 18-25 and had enlisted in Saddams army as a way to obtain food and medical attention for their families. Like most American soldiers, they sign up for the benefits and hope like hell war does not break out.

These kids don't know anything of value. Torturing them yields no military gain and I agree that to do so, despite the fact that the other side is not being so nice, does in fact, make us the the very pigs, we are accusing others of being. We must have an internal sense of what is right.

I do reserve the right, in specific situations to turn the screws a bit when someone is captured that has specific information. I don't want to feel hand-tied by some piece of paper that says I can't touch him or I will be committing war crimes.

Again, it doesn't really matter, he is going to be tortured, no matter the legislation. I guess Cheney doesn't want the criminal charges to flow upstream and bite him in the ass.

And the insurgents aren't peons left out as target practice by some insane leader, they are self-recruited and they do know something. Who was harbouring them, how they got in, how the weapons are moved and I have no problem turning the screws on them to extract information.

Yes, I do think they should be placed in a habitable domicile and given clean water and food, but when interrogations are underway, things might get harsh. The information in his head could save my soldiers lives.

I think we all know that in certain situations, torture is used to get vital military information. The real problem was the pointless humilation and torture at Abu Garab, done to entertain a group of sickos. Sickos that were encouraged by leadership that looked the other way. It took torture from the hushed hidden backrooms and pasted it all over the web.

I do understand where Cheney is coming from. He can't just say "come on people get you heads out of your asses, torture occurs in every war, by every side. Sometimes you need to lean on people to get them to remember where the bomb is going to be placed, and what buildings the hijackers are going to target". Torture has and will continue to occur in very select situations and he doesn't want these incidents coming home to him. On the other hand, who can he blame for this reactionary petition, but himself.

[Mr JP Fugley]

hobbes,

What you just said was, the end justifies the means. I disagree.

I believe in the rule of law and in due process. I do not believe that torture is an acceptable form of interrogation.

I do not believe that torturing people is acceptable, even if it would provide valuable military intelligence.

We cannot condemn people who use torture to obtain information they want. Then do it ourselves when it is us who want that information.

That is just wrong.

There can be no exception to the prohibition of torture and inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment, as set out in article 15.2 of the European Convention on Human Rights, (ECHR) which allows no derogation, even in the case of a state of emergency or to maintain law and order.

[Busyman]

No nation should openly support torture. However, we know every does it when necessary.

It is an under the table typathang.

[Mr JP Fugley]

No nation should openly support torture. However, we know every does it when necessary.

It is an under the table typathang.

Is that kind of like.

" ... you don't want to know the truth."

[j2k4]

hobbes,

What you just said was, the end justifies the means. I disagree.

I believe in the rule of law and in due process. I do not believe that torture is an acceptable form of interrogation.

I do not believe that torturing people is acceptable, even if it would provide valuable military intelligence.

We cannot condemn people who use torture to obtain information they want. Then do it ourselves when it is us who want that information.

That is just wrong.

There can be no exception to the prohibition of torture and inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment, as set out in article 15.2 of the European Convention on Human Rights, (ECHR) which allows no derogation, even in the case of a state of emergency or to maintain law and order.

JP-

Would you agree with any intelligence-gathering methods that employed, uh....medication?

The kind that loosens lips and inhibitions?

[Mr JP Fugley]

I would accept the use of copious quantities of t'apple.