"iraq-ijuana"

[hobbes]

Originally posted by myfiles3000+20 April 2003 - 10:05--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (myfiles3000 @ 20 April 2003 - 10:05)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--sAdam@20 April 2003 - 08:23
as for iraq, well thats a real threat.

The law makes people kill and OD and have a criminal record, not the drugs. almost all the negative effects of doing drugs are the product of the laws, not the drugs.[/b][/quote]
That is just crazy talk&#33;

How do laws make people overdose?

I have stated before that marijuana and alcohol are equivalent drugs. The legality of one and the illegality of the other is more historical than anything.

Lets talk about cocaine and heroin.

As a junior in highschool I stole some of my parents whiskey, just to try it. A friend and I drank it and we were feeling silly and drunk. This guy noticed our behavior and ran across the street, offering us free cocaine. I declined, but my friend accepted. His life then became a search for more coke. Selling all his stuff, stealing from his mother, beating up his sister, dropping out of school. This all happened in a 3 week time span. This scenario is repeated all around the country daily. He still has not turned his life around many years later.

Highly addictive drugs take the autonomy away from the users, life is lived dose to dose. This addictive effect varies person to person, so not all will be helplessly consumed.

Compare drinkers to smokers. A casual drinker can go the entire week without thinking of alcohol. He uses it as an outlet when relaxing. How about the smoker, watch him get edgy when he can&#39;t sneak out at work for a quick break. Ever see people standing outside shaking in the snow smoking. Do they enjoy it? No, they must do it so they can satisfy the craving and then return to thinking anbout their jobs.

Imagine this is cocaine. Even more addictive AND mind altering. You can&#39;t safely return to work after a quick line.

As honestly as I would love to see all drugs legalized, this was where I had to draw the line. Imagine millions of Americans who would never have touched the stuff because of its illegality, now free to sample it&#39;s wares and be seduced by its siren song.

Heroin is even worse. The common expression is that there is no such thing as an "ex" heroin addict.

Again, you may have tried the stuff and you are not addicted. But let us use cigarettes as a yardstick. Look how many people smoke and compare this to the number of smokers who want to quit.

If I told you smokers that for 10 dollars I could erase all memory of ever having smoked, I promise you I would be a billionaire.

["The Avatar Man"]

Originally posted by myfiles3000+20 April 2003 - 06:56--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (myfiles3000 @ 20 April 2003 - 06:56)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--"The Avatar Man"@20 April 2003 - 05:34
I dont think the danger of drugs is exaggerated at all.(xept marijuana)

Just so I know where you&#39;re coming from, what are do you mean by "drugs", which ones? [/b][/quote]
crack,cocaine,heroin,lsd,pcp and others are all killers and extremely dangerous

[Jibbler]

Originally posted by "The Avatar Man"@20 April 2003 - 17:49
crack,cocaine,heroin,lsd,pcp and others are all killers and extremely dangerous

Only dangerous in the hands of inexperienced users. I&#39;m not trying to say that drugs are for everyone. However I feel that responsible adults can use drugs, in moderation, safely. Humans have been using drugs since the first age of civilization. Passing a law against it makes it illegal. This doesn&#39;t change the desire of humans to be human.

["The Avatar Man"]

you saying that because you are responsible you wont get addicted on your first hit of crack?
I think certain drugs like marijuana are not as addictive nor do they alter behaviour as strongly as crack or heroin.I agree with your point in reference to these
but an addiction to crack,heroin,pcp can not becontrolled no matter how responsible you are

[myfiles3000]

Originally posted by hobbes@20 April 2003 - 23:15
I have stated before that marijuana and alcohol are equivalent drugs.

Lets talk about cocaine and heroin.

As a junior in highschool I stole some of my parents whiskey, just to try it. A friend and I drank it and we were feeling silly and drunk. This guy noticed our behavior and ran across the street, offering us free cocaine. I declined, but my friend accepted. His life then became a search for more coke. Selling all his stuff, stealing from his mother, beating up his sister, dropping out of school. This all happened in a 3 week time span. This scenario is repeated all around the country daily. He still has not turned his life around many years later.

Highly addictive drugs take the autonomy away from the users, life is lived dose to dose. This addictive effect varies person to person, so not all will be helplessly consumed.

Compare drinkers to smokers. A casual drinker can go the entire week without thinking of alcohol. He uses it as an outlet when relaxing. How about the smoker, watch him get edgy when he can&#39;t sneak out at work for a quick break. Ever see people standing outside shaking in the snow smoking. Do they enjoy it? No, they must do it so they can satisfy the craving and then return to thinking anbout their jobs.

Imagine this is cocaine. Even more addictive AND mind altering. You can&#39;t safely return to work after a quick line.

As honestly as I would love to see all drugs legalized, this was where I had to draw the line. Imagine millions of Americans who would never have touched the stuff because of its illegality, now free to sample it&#39;s wares and be seduced by its siren song.

Heroin is even worse. The common expression is that there is no such thing as an "ex" heroin addict.

Again, you may have tried the stuff and you are not addicted. But let us use cigarettes as a yardstick. Look how many people smoke and compare this to the number of smokers who want to quit.

If I told you smokers that for 10 dollars I could erase all memory of ever having smoked, I promise you I would be a billionaire.

alcohol and pot are not equivalents. Look at the research literature. The effects of alcohol, immediate, short term and long-term are worse. Period.

I&#39;m sorry to hear about you&#39;re friend. But its anecdotal evidence, and not of much use. I don&#39;t deny there are addicts in the world, there most certainly are....however, going from clean cut kid to raving coke head in 3 weeks sounds either exaggerated, or the results of a *significant* predisposition to addictive behaviour. Again, its anecdotal, we don&#39;t know cause and effect. He probably has a drinking problem, most coke heads do. It begs the question: if there were no coke in the world, would your friend by leading a &#39;normal healthy" lifestyle? No offense, but I doubt it.

You&#39;r comparison of smokers and drinkers is false: you&#39;re comparing a non-addict to an addict. If you&#39;re going to use the example of a drinker, apply an alcoholic. And your assertion that coke is "even more addictive" than nicotine is simply not true. Nicotine is by far the most addictive of social drugs. Again, look at the literature. So using it as a yardstick is like basing a decision to buy a dog for your 5 year old on what you&#39;re average pitbull is like.

I&#39;m not necessarily saying legalize everything, and plunge ourselves into narco-chaos. My ultimate point is this: the war should be on addiction, not drugs. Truer words were perhaps never spoken.

[hobbes]

Originally posted by Jibbler+20 April 2003 - 23:53--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jibbler @ 20 April 2003 - 23:53)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--"The Avatar Man"@20 April 2003 - 17:49
crack,cocaine,heroin,lsd,pcp and others are all killers and extremely dangerous

Only dangerous in the hands of inexperienced users. I&#39;m not trying to say that drugs are for everyone. However I feel that responsible adults can use drugs, in moderation, safely. Humans have been using drugs since the first age of civilization. Passing a law against it makes it illegal. This doesn&#39;t change the desire of humans to be human.[/b][/quote]
How do you go from "inexperienced" directly to "experienced". Seems that everyone has to be a rookie at some point.

How do you define a responsible adult. Is there a test you take before you can buy the drug.

Addiction at first use is not a maturity thing, it is a membrance receptor thing.

I do not desire coke, largely because I have never used it. I have never used it because it is illegal.

You are correct that people need an outlet. The key is to have control of the outlet and not the reverse.

So how do you arbitrarily decide who drugs are for.

I think the biggest problem is that for those who can responsibly use addictive drugs, they fail to appreciate how holistically consuming these drugs are for others. The fallacy is that they think it is about having "willpower" and so they feel that responsible people should be able to control their urges.

It has been shown in animal experiments that once exposed to a drug an animal will starve itself to death as long as it keeps getting the drug.

Even our buddy Freud, who had 18 surgeries on his mouth due to his smoking, stated that death would be preferrable to quitting.

Do not think that your personal experience sets a precedent for the population as a whole.

[ne1GotZardoz]

Originally posted by myfiles3000@20 April 2003 - 18:02

I&#39;m not necessarily saying legalize everything, and plunge ourselves into narco-chaos. My ultimate point is this: the war should be on addiction, not drugs. Truer words were perhaps never spoken.

You know...I&#39;ve gotta agree with him on this.
Some people are just addicts. I use to know a guy who was scared to buy illegal drugs, so he bought sore throat medicine and ingested it in large quantities.
His description of the high sounded somewhat like what I heard of PCP.
Diphenhydramine is over the counter. Its used as an antihistamine, but in the absence of histamine in your system, it acts the same as a barbituate.
Sniffing model glue, inhaling laughing gas, Freon, Robitussin, Co-tylonol, Alkaseltzer plus, All are drugs and all will get you high in a large enough dose.
And you can OD on any of them. Or in the case of laughing gas, die of asphyxiation.
Now...Something I find interesting is the freedom with which morphine was doled out to the troops in Iraq.
Morphine is addictive and taken regularly, becomes an halucinagen.
Sorry...Got off on a tangent.

The point is, there are people who are easily addicted for a variety of reasons. Making them afraid of street drugs just forces them to turn to some other drug that could potentially be more dangerous.
Remember what happened in...was it the Korean or Vietnam war...when our government made a big deal about the evils of smoking marajuana?
Does anyone remember what happened?
The propaganda campaign worked.
The men stopped smoking pot and turned to Heroin.

Gee...Big improvement.

Peace

[hobbes]

Myfiles3000,

What is your point about pot and alcohol? I was just saying, to sort of give the reader some perspective, that the fact that one is illegal and the other legal is arbitrary. I wanted people to know that I am not some "Nervous Nelly" running aroung screetching the party line, "drugs are bad". I am educated in this subject and this is my insight. The absolute equality of pot and alcohol is a quibble, lets stay on topic.

My main concern is the addictive drugs. Whether you think nicotine is more addictive than cocaine is irrelvant to the big picture, a simple matter of quibbling details. We will both agree that both are highly addictive and that is the point.

The story I told was anecdotal, but a microcosm of what occurs everyday. This is not in dispute.

My comparison is dead on. Most people who consume alcohol ARE casual drinkers, most who smoke ARE addicted. That was the essensce of it.

So, when you take a highly addictive drug, you are more likely to become an addict. Drinking is done by almost everyone, but most confine it to certain occasions, rather than craving a daily alcohol break.

Alcoholics represent a small percentage of those that drink, cigarette addicts are the norm with the occassional smoker being the exception.

Sure, people with problems use drugs as an escape. This will turn out poorly, regardless of the drug of choice. But what about the functional person who decides to take a line at a party and becomes addicted? With alcohol alone, he would have a hangover. With coke, he has a new best buddy.


The best way to fight the war on addiction is prevention. Truer words were never spoken.

Don&#39;t change your story. You said laws caused overdoses and that laws caused almost all of the adverse of the drugs. That is just crazy&#33; It is the addictive property of these drugs that cause the adverse effects.

[hobbes]

Sorry to double post, but this point is important.

Consider all those people who started smoking and want to quit but can&#39;t. We all know lots of them. Imagine if they were doing cocaine instead of cigarettes.

You ask these people what advice they would give to kids growing up about smoking.

NEVER start they scream&#33; You need to shield people from the vice of addiction rather than try to save the occasional person from it, once it has set in.

A stitch in time.

[sAdam]

u people piss me off.

the only people who spew the "evils of drugs" and "the getting addicted off one hit" propoganda are people that have no first hand experience.

do yourselves a favour, go buy a little coke, do a few lines, and if you do manage to get addicted from that, while then a laugh at your sorry ass.

until you&#39;ve tried it, dont fukin talk about it, because you just don&#39;t know.

oh yeah, quitting smoking is easy. its called will power. u can use this same "magic" force to keep from becoming a crack monkey.