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Thread: come on "constructionists"

  1. #51
    j2k4's Avatar en(un)lightened
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    Quote Originally Posted by JPaul
    It's like the argument, we all "know" it goes on, but we don't really know it goes on. So we have plausible deniability when it becomes public knowledge.
    Exactly, but to address that issue would require a much more elemental discussion, having the horrifying effect (for politicians) of riling voters of all (both ) persuasions.

    Politicians would characterize such a development as having the potential to "rend the very fabric of our country's foundation", or some similar rot, never acknowledging any foundation made of "fabric" hasn't much to recommend it in the first place.

    Funny story:

    Back sometime during the Clinton impeachment deal, I remember some Democrat being interviewed (I think it was Charlie Rangel, D-NY) who gave forth with a similar rhetorical masterpiece, and when the commentator made note of the awkwardly purple prose, Rangel said, "But you know what I mean".
    "Researchers have already cast much darkness on the subject, and if they continue their investigations, we shall soon know nothing at all about it."

    -Mark Twain

  2. The Drawing Room   -   #52
    JPaul's Avatar Fat Secret Agent
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    So what we have is the President and Congress ignoring the Constitution and the American people accepting this, albeit by apathy.

    Do the Senate speak on this issue, jointly or severally.

  3. The Drawing Room   -   #53
    j2k4's Avatar en(un)lightened
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    Quote Originally Posted by JPaul
    So what we have is the President and Congress ignoring the Constitution and the American people accepting this, albeit by apathy.

    Do the Senate speak on this issue, jointly or severally.
    Officially?

    Justice's investigation will render a result, which the Senate may or may not choose to take up for a sanctioning vote.

    If Justice's finding is favorable to the administration (likely, I think), the majority on the Senate would probably go along, but the Dem leadership (such as it is ) would continue to scream bloody murder.
    "Researchers have already cast much darkness on the subject, and if they continue their investigations, we shall soon know nothing at all about it."

    -Mark Twain

  4. The Drawing Room   -   #54
    vidcc's Avatar there is no god
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    A report by Congress's research arm concluded yesterday that the administration's justification for the warrantless eavesdropping authorized by President Bush conflicts with existing law and hinges on weak legal arguments.

    The Congressional Research Service's report rebuts the central assertions made recently by Bush and Attorney General Alberto R. Gonzales about the president's authority to order secret intercepts of telephone and e-mail exchanges between people inside the United States and their contacts abroad.

    The findings, the first nonpartisan assessment of the program's legality to date, prompted Democratic lawmakers and civil liberties advocates to repeat calls yesterday for Congress to conduct hearings on the monitoring program and attempt to halt it.

    The 44-page report said that Bush probably cannot claim the broad presidential powers he has relied upon as authority to order the secret monitoring of calls made by U.S. citizens since the fall of 2001. Congress expressly intended for the government to seek warrants from a special Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court before engaging in such surveillance when it passed legislation creating the court in 1978, the CRS report said.

    The report also concluded that Bush's assertion that Congress authorized such eavesdropping to detect and fight terrorists does not appear to be supported by the special resolution that Congress approved after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, which focused on authorizing the president to use military force.

    "It appears unlikely that a court would hold that Congress has expressly or impliedly authorized the NSA electronic surveillance operations here," the authors of the CRS report wrote. The administration's legal justification "does not seem to be . . . well-grounded," they said.

    Sen. Arlen Specter (R-Pa.), chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, has pledged to hold hearings on the program, which was first revealed in news accounts last month, and the judges of the FISA court have demanded a classified briefing about the program, which is scheduled for Monday.

    "This report contradicts the president's claim that his spying on Americans was legal," said Sen. Frank Lautenberg (D-N.J.), one of the lawmakers who asked the CRS to research the issue. "It looks like the president's wiretapping was not only illegal, but also ensnared innocent Americans who did nothing more than place a phone call."

    Justice Department spokesman Brian Roehrkasse said the president and the administration believe the program is on firm legal footing. "The national security activities described by the president were conducted in accord with the law and provide a critical tool in the war on terror that saves lives and protects civil liberties at the same time," he said. A spokesman for the National Security Agency was not available for a comment yesterday.

    Other administration officials, who spoke on the condition of anonymity, said the CRS reached some erroneous legal conclusions, erring on the side of a narrow interpretation of what constitutes military force and when the president can exercise his war powers.

    Bush has said that he has broad powers in times of war and must exercise them to target not only "enemies across the world" but also "terrorists here at home." The administration has argued, starting in 2002 briefs to the FISA court, that the "war on terror" is global and indefinite, effectively removing the limits of wartime authority -- traditionally the times and places of imminent or actual battle.

    Some law professors have been skeptical of the president's assertions, and several said yesterday that the report's conclusions were expected. "Ultimately, the administration's position is not persuasive," said Carl W. Tobias, a University of Richmond law professor and an expert on constitutional law. "Congress has made it pretty clear it has legislated pretty comprehensively on this issue with FISA," he said, referring to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. "And there begins to be a pattern of unilateral executive decision making. Time and again, there's the executive acting alone without consulting the courts or Congress."

    Marc Rotenberg, executive director of the Electronic Privacy Information Center, said the report makes it clear that Congress has exerted power over domestic surveillance. He urged Congress to address what he called the president's abuse of citizens' privacy rights and the larger issue of presidential power.

    "These are absolutely central questions in American government: What exactly are the authorities vested in the president, and is he complying with the law?" Rotenberg said.

    The report includes 1970s-era quotations from congressional committees that were then uncovering years of domestic spying abuses by J. Edgar Hoover's FBI against those suspected of communist sympathies, American Indians, Black Panthers and other activists. Lawmakers were very disturbed at how routinely FBI agents had listened in on U.S. citizens' phone calls without following any formal procedures. As they drafted FISA and created its court, the lawmakers warned then that only strong legislation, debated in public, could stop future administrations from eavesdropping.

    "This evidence alone should demonstrate the inappropriateness of relying solely on executive branch discretion to safeguard civil liberties," they wrote. The lawmakers noted that Congress's intelligence committees could provide some checks and balances to protect privacy rights but that their power was limited in the face of an administration arguing that intelligence decisions must remain top secret.
    source

    it’s an election with no Democrats, in one of the whitest states in the union, where rich candidates pay $35 for your votes. Or, as Republicans call it, their vision for the future.

  5. The Drawing Room   -   #55
    JPaul's Avatar Fat Secret Agent
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    It really does seem that your Administration is acting in a particularly unilateral way, again. They did it with regard to torture, they are also doing it with regard to electronic surveillance (including your own citizens).

    It seems their view of the Constitution may be a tad more flexible than I had been led to believe. They seem to use some untenable legal arguments to justify ignoring it, or at the least bending it a wee bit.
    Last edited by JPaul; 01-07-2006 at 11:09 PM.

  6. The Drawing Room   -   #56
    clocker's Avatar Shovel Ready
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    Quote Originally Posted by AP wire
    Cynthia Ice-Bones, 32, a Republican from Sacramento, Calif., said knowing about the program made her feel a bit safer. "I think our security is so important that we don't need warrants. If you're doing something we shouldn't be doing, then you ought to be caught," she said.
    A distillation of Bush's take on this as voiced by one of his supporters.
    The logic (or maybe just the parsing) in play here makes my eyes bleed.
    "I am the one who knocks."- Heisenberg

  7. The Drawing Room   -   #57
    JPaul's Avatar Fat Secret Agent
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    Quote Originally Posted by clocker
    Quote Originally Posted by AP wire
    Cynthia Ice-Bones, 32, a Republican from Sacramento, Calif., said knowing about the program made her feel a bit safer. "I think our security is so important that we don't need warrants. If you're doing something we shouldn't be doing, then you ought to be caught," she said.
    A distillation of Bush's take on this as voiced by one of his supporters.
    The logic (or maybe just the parsing) in play here makes my eyes bleed.
    I concur.

    Your proud tradition of civil liberties and freedom (feck you even sing about it) may have slipped into reverse by accident (or design).

    To me, as an outsider, this is a more important issue than your right to bear arms.

    4th > 2nd.

    It seems your citizens may disagree.

  8. The Drawing Room   -   #58
    j2k4's Avatar en(un)lightened
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    Some info that bears on the situation; a quote, actually.

    Take note of the bi-partisan name-dropping, of you please?

    "...The President has the power as commander-in-chief under the Constitution to intercept and monitor the communications of America's enemies.

    Presidents have asserted and exercised this power repeatedly and consistently over the past quarter-century.

    To be sure, federal courts have ruled that the Fourth Amendment's bar of 'unreasonable' searches and seizures limits the President's power to intercept communications without obtaining a warrant, but that doesn't apply to foreign intercepts, as the Supreme Court made clear in a 1972 case, writing, 'the instant case requires no judgement on the scope of the President's surveillance power with respect to the activities of foreign powers, within or without this country'.

    The federal courts of appeals for the 5th, 3rd, 9th and 4th Circuits, in cases decided in 1970, 1974, 1977 and 1980, took the same view.

    In 2002 the special federal court superintending the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act wrote, The Truong court, as did all the other courts to decide the issue, held that the President did have the inherent authority to conduct warrantless searches to obtain foreign intelligence information...We take for granted that the President does have that authority and, assuming that is so, FISA could not encroach on the President's constitutional power'.

    Warrantless intercepts of the comunications of foreign powers were undertaken as long ago as 1979, by the Carter administration. In 1994, Bill Clinton's deputy attorney general, Jamie Gorelick, testified to Congress, 'The Department of Justice believes, and the case law supports, that the President has inherent authority to conduct warrantless physical searches for foreign intelligence purposes'.

    In the Dec. 15th Chicago Tribune John Schmidt, associate attorney general in the Clinton administration, laid it out cold: 'President Bush's post-Sept. 11, 2001, authorization to the National Security Agency to carry out electronic surveillance into private phone calls and e-mails is consistent with court decisions and with the positions of the Justice Department under prior Presidents'.


    That should be sufficient explanation for all of you.
    "Researchers have already cast much darkness on the subject, and if they continue their investigations, we shall soon know nothing at all about it."

    -Mark Twain

  9. The Drawing Room   -   #59
    JPaul's Avatar Fat Secret Agent
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    Thanks for that. A few points.

    1. "within or without this country", surely they mean outwith.

    2. "Feck it's only foreigners so why should we bother with warrants" is actually quite offensive to us foreigners.

    3. Point 2. is commensurate with your position on torture, "we can do it to Johny Foreigner, outside of our fair land".

    4. Do you have a source or sources for this explanation. I wouldn't mind seeing it in context.

  10. The Drawing Room   -   #60
    j2k4's Avatar en(un)lightened
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    Quote Originally Posted by JPaul
    Thanks for that. A few points.

    1. "within or without this country", surely they mean outwith.

    I think what is more surely meant is "...the activities of Foreign Powers within or without this country".

    Proximity need not afford an enemy "safety" if it is on your own soil, I don't think; do you?


    2. "Feck it's only foreigners so why should we bother with warrants" is actually quite offensive to us foreigners.

    Are you a terrorist? A mal-intending foreign power?

    3. Point 2. is commensurate with your position on torture, "we can do it to Johny Foreigner, outside of our fair land".

    Bigfoot does what is necessary to protect it's own, and if you are attempting to equate targeted electronic surveillance to torture as a matter of standing policy, you need to get back to the matter at hand.

    This discussion is not about torture, last I looked.


    4. Do you have a source or sources for this explanation. I wouldn't mind seeing it in context.
    It is an excerpt from a column by Michael Barone that is apparently too new to have been archived; I have read it but cannot find it on-line.

    As I had to transcribe it myself so that you could read it, I suppose it is totally suspect, huh?
    "Researchers have already cast much darkness on the subject, and if they continue their investigations, we shall soon know nothing at all about it."

    -Mark Twain

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