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Thread: come on "constructionists"

  1. #71
    vidcc's Avatar there is no god
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    Bit of a read, my apologies

    The Honorable John Conyers, Jr.
    United States House of Representatives
    2426 Rayburn House Office Bldg.
    Washington, DC 20515-2214

    Dear Congressman Conyers:

    I appreciate your interest in my views as a constitutional scholar regarding the
    legality of the classified program of electronic surveillance by the National Security
    Agency ("NSA") that the President authorized within months of the September 11, 2001,
    attacks by Al Qaeda, a program whose existence the President confirmed on December
    17, 2005, following its disclosure by The New York Times several days earlier.
    Some have defended the NSA program as though it involved nothing beyond
    computer-enhanced data mining used to trace the electronic paths followed by phone
    calls and e-mails either originating from or terminating at points overseas associated with
    terrorists or their affiliates or supporters. But that type of intelligence gathering, whose
    history long antedates September 11, 2001, typically entails little or no interception of
    communicative content that would make it a "search" or "seizure" as those terms are
    understood for Fourth Amendment purposes (see Smith v. Maryland, 442 U.S. 735 (1979)
    (the "pen register" case)), or "electronic surveillance" as that term is used in the Foreign
    Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA)(see 50 U.S.C. § 1801 (f)(1)-(2)). Unfortunately, as
    Attorney General Gonzales candidly conceded in a press briefing on December 19, 2005,
    the program under discussion here authorized precisely such interception of "contents of
    communications." See http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...rint/20051219-
    1.html.

    Although there may be room for debate about the boundary between content
    interception and mere traffic analysis in other contexts, the Attorney General eliminated
    speculation on the point when he said in that press briefing that the "surveillance that . . .
    the President announced on [December 17]" is the "kind" that "requires a court order
    before engaging in" it "unless otherwise authorized by statute or by Congress," and it is
    undisputed that a court order is precisely what the Executive Branch chose to proceed
    without. The President was therefore being less than forthright when, two weeks after admitting that he had authorized what the FISA defines as "electronic surveillance" that
    would normally require a judicial warrant, he told reporters in Texas that the "NSA
    program is one that listens to a few numbers" because "the enemy is calling somebody
    and we want to know who they're calling . . . ." See
    http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/nati...b73b4903455b75...
    (1/3/2006). To be sure, the President did say "we want to know who they're calling and
    why," to "find out what the enemy's thinking," hopefully alerting the attentive listener to
    the possibility that the contents of individual messages are being intercepted. But by
    centering the discussion on what sounds more like number-crunching than content-trawling,
    the President encouraged the program's other apologists to depict it as relatively
    innocuous by shifting attention away from precisely what makes this program of secret
    surveillance so legally controversial.

    Equally diversionary is the frequently repeated suggestion that, whatever the
    program intercepts, the only messages it reaches are "communications, back and forth,
    from within the United States to overseas with members of Al Qaeda," to quote the
    Attorney General's December 19 press briefing. Again, however, the attentive listener
    might have caught the more precise account the Attorney General let slip at another point
    in that same briefing, when he noted that the surveillance that had been going on under
    presidential auspices for roughly four years in fact reaches all instances in which "we . . .
    have a reasonable basis to conclude that one party to the communication is a member of
    Al Qaeda, affiliated with Al Qaeda, or a member of an organization affiliated with Al
    Qaeda or working in support of Al Qaeda." Given the breadth and elasticity of the
    notions of "affiliation" and "support," coupled with the loosely-knit network of groups
    that Al Qaeda is thought to have become, that definition casts so wide a net that no-one
    can feel certain of escaping its grasp.

    A strong case can be made that, even under the circumstances confronting the
    United States in the aftermath of the terrorist attacks launched by Al Qaeda on September
    11, 2001, and even with assurance that conversations are being intercepted solely to aid
    in preventing future terrorist attacks rather than for use as evidence to prosecute past
    misdeeds, so indiscriminate and sweeping a scheme of domestic intrusion into the private
    communications of American citizens, predicated entirely on the unchecked judgment of
    the Executive Branch, violates the Fourth Amendment "right of the people to be secure . .
    . against unreasonable searches and seizures" even if it otherwise represents an exercise
    of constitutional power entrusted to the President by Article II or delegated to the
    President by Congress in exercising its powers under Article I.

    The precise question of such a scheme's consistency with the Fourth Amendment
    has never been judicially resolved -- nor is it likely to be resolved in this situation. For
    the scheme in question, far from being authorized by Congress, flies in the face of an
    explicit congressional prohibition and is therefore unconstitutional without regard to the
    Fourth Amendment unless it belongs to that truly rare species of executive acts so central
    to and inherent in the power vested in the President by Article II that, like the power to
    propose or veto legislation or to issue pardons, its exercise cannot constitutionally be
    fettered in any way by the Legislative Branch.

    Any such characterization would be hard to take seriously with respect to
    unchecked warrantless wiretapping. As the Supreme Court famously held in Youngstown
    Sheet & Tube Co. v. Sawyer, 343 U.S. 579 (1952), an emergency presidential takeover
    for a limited time of certain critical publicly held corporations like Bethlehem Steele Co.
    and the United States Steele Co., in order to avert the threat that would be posed to our
    national security by a stoppage of the steel production needed for weapons and other
    materials essential to the ongoing Korean War, falls outside that tiny category of
    congressionally illimitable executive acts and is indeed unconstitutional unless
    affirmatively authorized by Congress. If that is so, then certainly an unchecked
    presidential program of secretly recording the conversations of perhaps thousands of
    innocent private citizens in the United States in hopes of gathering intelligence
    potentially useful for the ongoing war on a global terrorist network not only falls outside
    that category but misses it by a mile.

    The only escape from that conclusion would be to hold that inherent and
    illimitable presidential power to abridge individual liberty and erode personal privacy
    categorically exceeds presidential power to displace temporarily the corporate managers
    of entirely impersonal business property, without confiscating, transferring, or otherwise
    touching the property's ultimate ownership by the holders of its shares. But our
    Constitution embodies no such perverse system of priorities.
    The presidential power at issue in this case is therefore subject to the control of
    Congress. And that Congress has indeed forbidden this exercise of power is clear. The
    Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 unambiguously limits warrantless domestic
    electronic surveillance, even in a congressionally declared war, to the first 15 days of
    that war; criminalizes any such electronic surveillance not authorized by statute; and
    expressly establishes FISA and two chapters of the federal criminal code, governing
    wiretaps for intelligence purposes and for criminal investigation, respectively, as the
    "exclusive means by which electronic surveillance . . . and the interception of domestic
    wire, oral, and electronic communications may be conducted." 50 U.S.C. §§ 1811, 1809,
    18 U.S.C. § 2511(2)(f). The House version of the bill would have authorized the
    President to engage in warrantless electronic surveillance for the first year of a war, but
    the Conference Committee rejected so long a period of judicially unchecked
    eavesdropping as unnecessary inasmuch as the 15-day period would "allow time for
    consideration of any amendment to this act that may be appropriate during a wartime
    emergency." H.R. Conf. Rep. No. 95-1720, at 34 (1978). If a year was deemed too long,
    one can just imagine what the Conferees would have said of four years.
    Rather than reaching for the heaviest (and, in this context, least plausible and
    hence most ineffectual) artillery by claiming an inherent presidential power to spy on
    innocent American citizens within the United States even in the teeth of a clear and
    explicit congressional prohibition of that technique of intelligence-gathering beyond the
    first 15 days of a declared war, the administration points to the FISA's own caveat that its
    prohibitions are inapplicable to electronic surveillance that is "otherwise authorized" by a
    congressional statute, which of course encompasses a joint resolution presented to and
    signed by the President.

    The Authorization to Use Military Force (AUMF) against Al Qaeda, Pub.L. No.
    107-40, 115 Stat. 224 §2 (a) (2001), is just such a resolution, the administration claims,
    for it authorizes the President to use "all necessary and appropriate force" against
    "nations, organizations, or persons" associated with the terrorist attacks of September 11,
    2001, in order to protect the nation from the recurrence of such aggression. Although
    that resolution of course says nothing about electronic surveillance as such, neither does
    it say anything specifically about the detention of enemy combatants fighting for Al
    Qaeda in Afghanistan as part of the Taliban, the organization from within which the Al
    Qaeda terrorist network launched those infamous attacks. Yet, in the face of
    congressional legislation (the Non-Detention Act) expressly forbidding the executive
    detention of any United States citizen except "pursuant to an Act of Congress," 18 U.S.C.
    § 4001(a), the Supreme Court in Hamdi v. Rumsfeld, 124 S.Ct. 2633 (2004), held that
    such detention in the United States of individuals who are U.S. citizens captured while
    fighting against American forces in Afghanistan "for the duration of the particular
    conflict in which they were captured," in order to prevent them "from returning to the
    field of battle and taking up arms once again," escapes the prohibition of that anti-detention
    statute by virtue of its implied authorization by the AUMF as an exercise of the
    "necessary and appropriate force" Congress authorized the President to use, a conclusion
    supported by the fact that such detention for this limited purpose is a "fundamental and
    accepted . . . incident to war." 124 S.Ct. at 2640.

    If Hamdi treated the AUMF as an "explicit congressional authorization," 124
    S.Ct. at 2640-41, for imprisoning an enemy combatant despite AUMF's failure to
    mention "detention" or "imprisonment" in so many words, the argument goes, the AUMF
    must be read to impliedly authorize the far less severe intrusion of merely eavesdropping
    on our terrorist enemies, and on members of organizations that indirectly support them.
    After all, the collection of "signals intelligence" about our enemies abroad is no less an
    accepted incident of war than detaining the captured enemy -- just as signals intelligence
    of foreign agents (including some going to and from the United States) has been accepted
    as an inherent power of the President even in the absence of war. Surely, then, now that
    Al Qaeda has launched a war against us, and now that Congress has responded with the
    functional equivalent of a declaration of war in the AUMF, even the entirely innocent
    American citizen in Chicago or Cleveland whose phone conversation with a member of
    an Al Qaeda-supportive organization happens to be ensnared by the eavesdropping being
    undertaken by the NSA cannot be heard to complain that no statute specifically
    authorized the Executive to capture her telephone communications and e-mails as such.
    Invasion of that citizen's privacy was, alas, but one of war's sad side effects -- a species
    of collateral damage.

    The technical legal term for that, I believe, is poppycock. Hamdi obviously rested
    on the modest point that statutory authority to kill or gravely injure an enemy on the field
    of battle impliedly authorizes one to take the far less extreme step of detaining that
    enemy, solely for the duration of the battle, to prevent his return to fight against our
    troops. Power to engage in domestic electronic surveillance on a wide scale within the
    territorial United States -- intercepting, recording and transcribing conversations of
    4unsuspecting citizens who have committed no wrong, are not foreign agents traveling to
    and from the United States, and in fact pose no threat themselves but merely happen to
    have accepted a phone call or received an e-mail from, or sent an e-mail to, a member of
    an organization that is said to be supportive of the Al Qaeda network -- is by no stretch
    of the legal imagination a "lesser included power" contained within the power to repel
    future terrorist attacks by Al Qaeda on the United States.

    Thus the argument that the AUMF does not impliedly authorize this wide-ranging
    and indefinitely enduring program to extract potentially useful intelligence from ordinary
    citizens easily survives challenge based on Hamdi. More than that, Hamdi in fact yields
    added support for the conclusion that the AUMF cannot provide the requisite
    authorization. For the Hamdi plurality agreed "that indefinite detention for the purpose of
    interrogation," even of conceded enemy combatants, "is not authorized" by the AUMF.
    124 S.Ct. at 2641 (emphasis added). It follows a fortiori that indefinite subjection of
    American citizens who are not even alleged to be enemies, much less enemy combatants,
    to ongoing invasions of their privacy in the United States for purposes of obtaining
    valuable information is not authorized either.

    Moreover, it makes a difference that the FISA's specific regulation of all
    electronic surveillance in the United States deals with the subject at issue here in a far
    more comprehensive and elaborate way than the Anti-Detention Statute involved in
    Hamdi dealt with the military detentions at issue there -- military detentions that the
    Court treated as falling within the Anti-Detention Statute merely for the sake of argument
    when it held only that, if that statute otherwise applied, then it was trumped by the more
    specifically relevant AUMF. Here, in contrast, there can be no serious doubt that it is the
    FISA, and not the AUMF, that deals more specifically with the activity in question.
    Construing the AUMF, taken in conjunction with the President's power as
    Commander in Chief under Article II, as implicitly conferring broad authority to engage
    in whatever warrantless surveillance the President might deem necessary in a war of
    indefinite duration against Al Qaeda-related terrorism even in the face of FISA's
    prohibitions would entail interpreting the AUMF far more broadly than anyone could, in
    truth, have anticipated. If that AUMF authorization were indeed this broad, the President
    must simply have overlooked its continued existence when he recently chided Congress
    for failing to reenact the PATRIOT Act's provisions. To be sure, the AUMF, even on the
    Justice Department's extravagant reading, enacted no criminal proscriptions of the sort
    that parts of the PATRIOT Act included. Nor did it purport to authorize the President to
    enact such criminal laws, morphing into some sort of one-man legislature. But, on the
    government's broad reading, the AUMF certainly had armed the President, as of
    September 18, 2001, with the authority to take most of the steps the PATRIOT Act
    expressly authorized -- including all of the purely investigative and preventive actions it
    empowered the President to take -- until the recent sunsetting of some of its provisions.
    And it had empowered him as well, again on the government's reading, to override any
    statutory prohibitions that might otherwise have stood in his way.

    On the government's proposed reading of the AUMF, in other words, the
    PATRIOT Act, insofar as it confers the powers of investigation and prevention most
    fiercely sought by the President, becomes a needless and mostly redundant bauble. A
    statutory construction with such bizarre and altogether unanticipated consequences --
    and one that rests on so shaky a foundation -- would be inadmissible even if accepting it
    would not leave us with serious questions under the Fourth Amendment, which it of
    course would.

    Finally, it is telling that Attorney General Gonzales, when asked in his December
    19 press briefing why the administration hadn't simply proposed to Congress, in closed
    session if necessary, that it amend FISA to grant legislative permission for the kind of
    domestic surveillance program the President deemed essential to the nation's security,
    replied that the administration had concluded such a request would probably have been
    futile because Congress would most likely have denied the authority sought! To argue
    that one couldn't have gotten congressional authorization (in late 2001, when the NSA
    program was secretly launched) after arguing that, by the way, one did get congressional
    authorization (in late 2001, when the AUMF was enacted) takes some nerve. Apart from
    the obvious lapse in logic, it is axiomatic that legislative reluctance to relax or eliminate a
    prohibition is no defense to a charge of its violation.

    The inescapable conclusion is that the AUMF did not implicitly authorize what
    the FISA expressly prohibited. It follows that the presidential program of surveillance at
    issue here is a violation of the separation of powers -- as grave an abuse of executive
    authority as I can recall ever having studied.

    Yours truly, Laurence H. Tribe

    it’s an election with no Democrats, in one of the whitest states in the union, where rich candidates pay $35 for your votes. Or, as Republicans call it, their vision for the future.

  2. The Drawing Room   -   #72
    j2k4's Avatar en(un)lightened
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    Conyers is from my state, Michigan.

    I know what I think of him.

    That he sought out Tribe's opinion is telling.

    I know what I think of Tribe, too.

    His opinion doesn't trump that any other legal "scholar".

    The matter will be decided one way or another, and we will all live with and argue about the result.

    Nothing new about that, either.
    "Researchers have already cast much darkness on the subject, and if they continue their investigations, we shall soon know nothing at all about it."

    -Mark Twain

  3. The Drawing Room   -   #73
    j2k4's Avatar en(un)lightened
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    Quote Originally Posted by JPaul
    Quote Originally Posted by j2k4

    What is your understanding of the transgressions alleged?
    My understanding, based on your post is that there weren't any. That POTUS has the inherent power to do what he (they) did.
    I did say alleged, didn't I?
    "Researchers have already cast much darkness on the subject, and if they continue their investigations, we shall soon know nothing at all about it."

    -Mark Twain

  4. The Drawing Room   -   #74
    vidcc's Avatar there is no god
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    Quote Originally Posted by j2k4
    Conyers is from my state, Michigan.

    I know what I think of him.

    That he sought out Tribe's opinion is telling.

    I know what I think of Tribe, too.

    His opinion doesn't trump that any other legal "scholar".

    The matter will be decided one way or another, and we will all live with and argue about the result.

    Nothing new about that, either.
    Now now Kev.

    You posted a "right wingers" opinion on the matter and i didn't make comments about the authors legal opinion based on his politics.
    Last edited by vidcc; 01-11-2006 at 03:03 AM.

    it’s an election with no Democrats, in one of the whitest states in the union, where rich candidates pay $35 for your votes. Or, as Republicans call it, their vision for the future.

  5. The Drawing Room   -   #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by vidcc
    Quote Originally Posted by j2k4
    Conyers is from my state, Michigan.

    I know what I think of him.

    That he sought out Tribe's opinion is telling.

    I know what I think of Tribe, too.

    His opinion doesn't trump that any other legal "scholar".

    The matter will be decided one way or another, and we will all live with and argue about the result.

    Nothing new about that, either.
    Now now Kev.

    You posted a "right wingers" opinion on the matter and i didn't make comments about the authors legal opinion based on his politics.
    Yes, yes.

    You were the literal personification of civilized discourse.
    "Researchers have already cast much darkness on the subject, and if they continue their investigations, we shall soon know nothing at all about it."

    -Mark Twain

  6. The Drawing Room   -   #76
    JPaul's Avatar Fat Secret Agent
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    Quote Originally Posted by j2k4
    Quote Originally Posted by JPaul
    My understanding, based on your post is that there weren't any. That POTUS has the inherent power to do what he (they) did.
    I did say alleged, didn't I?
    My apologies, it's just a way of reading things. To me it was a silent "alleged".

    If the transgressions were impossible (based on your post), then the allegations were of no consequence.

  7. The Drawing Room   -   #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by JPaul
    Quote Originally Posted by j2k4

    I did say alleged, didn't I?
    My apologies, it's just a way of reading things. To me it was a silent "alleged".

    If the transgressions were impossible (based on your post), then the allegations were of no consequence.
    Basically, what occurred was this-

    Known terrorists' cell calls originating in Pakistan and Afghanistan were traced to U.S. locations.

    The numbers at those locations (or cells) were monitored.

    That's pretty much it.

    I don't believe this constitutes infringement of any objectionable sort.

    What do you think?
    "Researchers have already cast much darkness on the subject, and if they continue their investigations, we shall soon know nothing at all about it."

    -Mark Twain

  8. The Drawing Room   -   #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by j2k4
    Quote Originally Posted by JPaul
    My apologies, it's just a way of reading things. To me it was a silent "alleged".

    If the transgressions were impossible (based on your post), then the allegations were of no consequence.
    Basically, what occurred was this-

    Known terrorists' cell calls originating in Pakistan and Afghanistan were traced to U.S. locations.

    The numbers at those locations (or cells) were monitored.

    That's pretty much it.

    I don't believe this constitutes infringement of any objectionable sort.

    What do you think?

    Dead simple, put warrants in place. What was the problem in doing that.

    Unless there wasn't enought time to do it. In which case exceptionally circumvent the proper procedure, but retrospectively apply.

    I am uncomfortable with "known". By whom, some omniscient politician.

    I am happier with probable cause, due process and constitutional rights.

    The Court is there to listen to the argument that the criminal / crime is "known" and to make a desion on whether or not the person making this judgement has reasonable grounds to do so.

  9. The Drawing Room   -   #79
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    edit
    Last edited by j2k4; 01-12-2006 at 08:28 PM.
    "Researchers have already cast much darkness on the subject, and if they continue their investigations, we shall soon know nothing at all about it."

    -Mark Twain

  10. The Drawing Room   -   #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by JPaul
    I am uncomfortable with "known". By whom, some omniscient politician.

    The Court is there to listen to the argument that the criminal / crime is "known" and to make a desion on whether or not the person making this judgement has reasonable grounds to do so.
    By "known", I meant known in Pakistan and Afghanistan; on the "battlefield", as it were.

    Should we seek domestically-issued warrants for foreign surveillance?

    The "known" part is self-evident, stateside.

    Reports indicate the desirability of warrantless surveillance was a factor, for tactical/technical/strategic reasons.
    "Researchers have already cast much darkness on the subject, and if they continue their investigations, we shall soon know nothing at all about it."

    -Mark Twain

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