jailed for denying the holocaust

[JPaul]

who said it wasn't?

It really matters not one fuck what you, or busboy, or anyone else thinks.

This will come in handy the next time you criticise American laws and punishment like the death penalty.

Hello one trick pony, how are you ce soir.

[hobbes]

Austrian law being oppressive shite is my opinion and requires no special knowledge on my part.

Nice attempt to distract from the fact that you think the ends justify the means.

You artibrarily used that phrase and feel it has now become the crux of the argument.

I think not, baby puppy.

Oh and ending a sentence with "fact" tends to suggest it is more than your opinion. Fact.

Using torture under any circumastance is wrong- Jp

Yes, stating something that might be hurtful to another is a jailable offense- Jp

The first illustrates that violating a persons right is always wrong.

The second clearly shows that it is simply a matter of opinion.

Can't have both can we.

Unless we are talking shite.

[JPaul]

You artibrarily used that phrase and feel it has now become the crux of the argument.

I think not, baby puppy.

Oh and ending a sentence with "fact" tends to suggest it is more than your opinion. Fact.

Using torture under any circumastance is wrong- Jp

Yes, stating something that might be hurtful to another is a jailable offense- Jp

The first illustrates that violating a persons right is always wrong.

The second clearly shows that it is simply a matter of opinion.

Can't have both can we.

Unless we are talking shite.

Read ECHR, I keep asking you to do so, but you don't.

I have gone to the bother of getting a basic knowledge of your Constitution. Is it so much to ask that you make a modicum of effort to reciprocate.

Freedom from torture is absolute. Freedom of speech is not.

That's what our "Constitution" says.

[hobbes]

I will not embarrass you further.

If you think that someone should be jailed for an unpopular opinion, you and your 1984 camera and survellience moniters can live happily well away from my counrty.

How is this ANY different than denying slavery?

You are pro-freedom as long as it supports your opinion, good for you.

[Cheese]

I tend to agree with Deborah Lipstadt's comments on BBC News with regards to this, censorship is not the answer. Countering these absurd claims with history and the truth is the best way to go. On the other hand I can understand the jail sentence to a certain extent because David Irving was inciting racial hatred.

Personally I think the abject humilation and denouncement he has endured at the hands of people like Lipstadt is a far greater punishment than anything the Austrians could hand out. I'd rather he died a broken man in obscurity than become a martyr for the far-right.

On a side note not related to whether the punishment/law is just: Carrying one of his own flawed books to the trial was bit stupid, as was breaking the law in the first place but why on earth return to a country that has a warrant for your arrest and a mandatory 1-10 year sentence for the crime he knew he had committed and that he intended to commit again? :duh:

[Busyman]

I tend to agree with [SIZE=2]Deborah Lipstadt's comments on BBC News with regards to this, censorship is not the answer. Countering these absurd claims with history and the truth is the best way to go. On the other hand I can understand the jail sentence to a certain extent because David Irving was inciting racial hatred.

How was he inciting violence? (I actually don't know the particulars)

I have known folks that questioned the Jewish holocaust and talked about it openly. Many say that it's all they've ever known, as far as history goes, that 6 million Jews were exterminated and they thought the figure exagerrated.

I see Deborah Lipstadt doesn't even advocate the law. She thinks it is totalitarian and gives Irving an ear to those who previously didn't listen.

Hell I even looked up what the hell he was talking about when previously couldn't care less. I honestly accept the holocaust 'cause it's what I was taught and it's what non-racist historians say. Others might think differently.

I do see that when such an effort is made to make folks STFU about something, people tend to look at what they must STFU about and whether there's a conspiracy behind it.

Some may say it's an issue with Austria, France, and the other 5 or so countries (that have similar laws) to deal with. Well that get's a NO SHIT DUH DUMBASS.

This is a discussion.

Comment has been made ad nauseam about American laws to an even greater extent....by folks that don't even live here.

The best thing for those folk that would quell discussion would be to STFU, fuck-off and troll the Lounge, and grab some common fucking sense to go along with their book knowledge.

[Cheese]

I tend to agree with [size=2]Deborah Lipstadt's comments on BBC News with regards to this, censorship is not the answer. Countering these absurd claims with history and the truth is the best way to go. On the other hand I can understand the jail sentence to a certain extent because David Irving was inciting racial hatred.

How was he inciting violence? (I actually don't know the particulars)

I have known folks that questioned the Jewish holocaust and talked about it openly. Many say that it's all they've ever known, as far as history goes, that 6 million Jews were exterminated and they thought the figure exagerrated.

I see Deborah Lipstadt doesn't even advocate the law. She thinks it is totalitarian and gives Irving an ear to those who previously didn't listen.

Hell I even looked up what the hell he was talking about when previously couldn't care less. I honestly accept the holocaust 'cause it's what I was taught and it's what non-racist historians say. Others might think differently.

I do see that when such an effort is made to make folks STFU about something, people tend to look at what they must STFU about and whether there's a conspiracy behind it.

Some may say it's an issue with Austria, France, and the other 5 or so countries (that have similar laws) to deal with. Well that get's a NO SHIT DUH DUMBASS.

This is a discussion.

Comment has been made ad nauseam about American laws to an even greater extent....by folks that don't even live here.

The best thing for those folk that would quell discussion would be to STFU, fuck-off and troll the Lounge, and grab some common fucking sense to go along with their book knowledge.

You seem to have wandered off onto some sort of nonsensical rant there. Could you not stick to the topic itself? Do we really need your "common sense > book knowledge" nonsense yet again?

This is a discussion.

The best thing for those folk that would quell discussion or hijack it to insult others or to further a tired agenda would be to STFU and fuck-off. They can stay out of the Lounge as well.

[Busyman]

How was he inciting violence? (I actually don't know the particulars)

I have known folks that questioned the Jewish holocaust and talked about it openly. Many say that it's all they've ever known, as far as history goes, that 6 million Jews were exterminated and they thought the figure exagerrated.

I see Deborah Lipstadt doesn't even advocate the law. She thinks it is totalitarian and gives Irving an ear to those who previously didn't listen.

Hell I even looked up what the hell he was talking about when previously couldn't care less. I honestly accept the holocaust 'cause it's what I was taught and it's what non-racist historians say. Others might think differently.

I do see that when such an effort is made to make folks STFU about something, people tend to look at what they must STFU about and whether there's a conspiracy behind it.

Some may say it's an issue with Austria, France, and the other 5 or so countries (that have similar laws) to deal with. Well that get's a NO SHIT DUH DUMBASS.

This is a discussion.

Comment has been made ad nauseam about American laws to an even greater extent....by folks that don't even live here.

The best thing for those folk that would quell discussion would be to STFU, fuck-off and troll the Lounge, and grab some common fucking sense to go along with their book knowledge.

You seem to have wandered off onto some sort of nonsensical rant there. Could you not stick to the topic itself? Do we really need your "common sense > book knowledge" nonsense yet again?

This is a discussion.

The best thing for those folk that would quell discussion or hijack it to insult others or to further a tired agenda would be to STFU and fuck-off. They can stay out of the Lounge as well.

Could I not stick to the topic? I did.

Comment was also made about those trying to quell discussion and hijack it to insult others which I'm able to do.

I'm glad you agree since you did the same.

[Cheese]

You seem to have wandered off onto some sort of nonsensical rant there. Could you not stick to the topic itself? Do we really need your "common sense > book knowledge" nonsense yet again?

This is a discussion.

The best thing for those folk that would quell discussion or hijack it to insult others or to further a tired agenda would be to STFU and fuck-off. They can stay out of the Lounge as well.

Could I not stick to the topic? I did.

Comment was also made about those trying to quell discussion and hijack it to insult others which I'm able to do.

I'm glad you agree since you did the same.

[JPaul]

I will not embarrass you further.

If you think that someone should be jailed for an unpopular opinion, you and your 1984 camera and survellience moniters can live happily well away from my counrty.

How is this ANY different than denying slavery?

You are pro-freedom as long as it supports your opinion, good for you.

I do not think that someone should be jailed for holding an unpopular opinion, like I said quite clearly, they can hold whatever opinion they want. That's a matter for them

However that does not mean they can choose to express any opinion wherever they want and whenever they want. I do not think the KKK should be allowed to go en mass into a black area and hold a rally proclaiming white supremacy. That does not mean they cannot do it, simply that society can decide it is wrong and take them to task for it.

In Austria they think that holocaust denial is so offensive that it is punishable by imprisonment. Where I am, incitement towards racial hatred is illegal because we as a society think it is morally repugnant. Society has rights, just as much as the individual.

With regard to the various attempted analogies. Certain rights are held to be absolute and others are not. The right to life and the right to freedom from torture are absolute and the State cannot take those away. The right to privacy and the right to freedom of expression are not. The default position is that people have those rights, however given certain circumstances and within a certain legal framework, the State can remove these rights.

That's how things are over here and the Austrians, given the historical significance, have every right to behave in the way they did. If some anti-semitic, racist decided to flaunt their laws good on them for defending themselves from him.

EDIT - The right to freedom from slavery is also an absolute right.