Wake up: the American Dream is over

[Rat Faced]

The rest of the world buys up American Fortune 500 companies for pennies?

Seriously, the multinationals register their interests in other countries through creating other wholley seperate Companies. Even if they have the same name.

If McDonalds went tits up in the US, McDonalds in Europe would still be trading.

Yes, our Stocks and Shares would plummit as the Markets adjusted, then would probably go into overdrive as the rest of the world tried to take advantage of the opportunity of a lifetime.

You are a net Importer... look at your balance of payments.. something anyone that is not American loves to see.

The stuff you export... nothing there that other countries cant supply (with the exception of certain weapons systems).

The Euro-Zone is a much bigger market than the US (450,000,000 v 300,000,000), they are our main Trading Partners and as such the economy there has a much greater effect on the UKs. We may even join it at some point (as if..)

If the Dollar crashes and people are buying Oil in Euro's... well, you do the math.. that alone would more than compensate this side of the Pond for the US's economic collapse.

Its something that Europe wouldnt complain about, apart from a few weeks of inconveniance.


You forget... the US companies would mostly still be trading, its the little guy in the US that gets hit hard, the Rich Ones would still be rich (mostly).



And now i said all that, i'll point out that it wouldnt be for that long before Europe Joined you in collapse (maybe a decade?)... we've already passed the peak oil point.

[j2k4]

Picture this:

I have jobs to fill.

I interview candidates in order to determine to my satisfaction (1) Who has the skills to do the job; (2) Who I can trust to do the job to my specification, and, (3) Who will do the job at the least cost to me.

I bid for my contract; they can bid for their job!

What could possibly be wrong with that?

Bollicks.

If someone cant feed/clothe/look after their family with their wage, they will go out and steal what is needed, and maybe a little more. They are also more likely to fall victim of Substance Abuse or Mental Disorders.

So, then.

Every wage must be a "living wage"?

What are we to pay a teenager living with Mom and Dad?

Students?

People who are working a second job to make a little extra?

Not everyone has a family, Rat.

Does someone supporting only him or herself merit a wage fit to house/clothe/feed a family of four?

As to falling back on theft, I don't know where you get that idea-if one is inclined to steal, it is not automatically due to having a minimum wage job, and I would submit to you the vast number of minimum wage earners are not thieves.

Mental illness and drug abuse are not symptomatic of minimum wage jobs, either; the likelihood is the low-paying job follows those symptoms rather than the other way around-in any case, treatment programs for drug abuse and mental health issues are handily available for any who choose to partake, although, given those problems are most often chronic/endemic, success is not guaranteed, as well you know.

The policy of not increasing the Minimum Wage in line with inflation is self defeating due to the added social/criminal costs that are then footed by the Taxpayer.

The taxpayer pays those costs in any case, and inflation will rise along with the minimum wage.

It should be noted here that a capitalist system reacts negatively to any and every attempt to regulate anything having to do with the value of services or goods.

If your on Minimum Wage, you also likely to have no pride in where you work and are unlikely to go the extra mile for your company.

As an employer, I am not the least interested in hiring anyone whose chief source of pride is the size of his/her paycheck.

I want someone who takes pride in his/her own work and the ethic which compels them.

Tell me, how far does $3 an hour go these days in the USA?

I don't know anyone working for $3 an hour, but if there were jobs that paid $3/hr, someone would fill them.

Let's say someone with a large family wishes to employ someone for an hour a day to fold wash.

What's it worth?

Remember that the guy has rent to pay, bills to pay, food to buy...

Actually, this is not often the case, although the media and liberal movement must have you think otherwise in order to make their case.

Besides, if the public have no money, they cant spend any money either...

They seem to live rather well, all things considered; I have a friend who works at social services who told me she recently had to process a young mother who couldn't be bothered to turn off her IPod to answer questions.

BTW-those who "have no money" shop at Wal-Mart; it works rather well, and you'll find me there on occasion, too.

[Rat Faced]

When the UK Minimum Wage was introduced, we heard all these arguments coming from the employers beforehand.

Employment went UP, very few companies went under and the "new" money getting circulated into the economy stopped us going into the recession the rest of the world is now coming out of.

The Minimum Wage(s) in the UK are:

£5.05 per hour for workers aged 22 years and older

A development rate of £4.25 per hour for
workers aged 18 - 21 years inclusive
workers aged 22 years and above, starting a new job with a new employer and doing accredited training*

£3.00 per hour which applies to all workers under the age of 18 who are no longer of compulsory school age.


It therefore takes into account that they are more likely to have a family when they're older and live with their family whilst younger.

There's also a very likely increase in the Minimum Wage in the South East to £7.00+ on the cards, and this is being led by the employers to a large extent, not the Government. They actually want the legislation so that they'd all be on the same bases, rather than go into a wages war in the service/retail sectors.

I think the Exchange rate is about 1.85 at this moment in time..

Therefore in your money the minimum wage(s) are $9.29, $7.86 & $5.55 respectively, with a proposed $12.95 in the South East.


Surely if our puny economy can afford that, so can your huge one?

[calm2chaos]

The rest of the world buys up American Fortune 500 companies for pennies?

Seriously, the multinationals register their interests in other countries through creating other wholley seperate Companies. Even if they have the same name.

If McDonalds went tits up in the US, McDonalds in Europe would still be trading.

Yes, our Stocks and Shares would plummit as the Markets adjusted, then would probably go into overdrive as the rest of the world tried to take advantage of the opportunity of a lifetime.

You are a net Importer... look at your balance of payments.. something anyone that is not American loves to see.

The stuff you export... nothing there that other countries cant supply (with the exception of certain weapons systems).

The Euro-Zone is a much bigger market than the US (450,000,000 v 300,000,000), they are our main Trading Partners and as such the economy there has a much greater effect on the UKs. We may even join it at some point (as if..)

If the Dollar crashes and people are buying Oil in Euro's... well, you do the math.. that alone would more than compensate this side of the Pond for the US's economic collapse.

Its something that Europe wouldnt complain about, apart from a few weeks of inconveniance.


You forget... the US companies would mostly still be trading, its the little guy in the US that gets hit hard, the Rich Ones would still be rich (mostly).



And now i said all that, i'll point out that it wouldnt be for that long before Europe Joined you in collapse (maybe a decade?)... we've already passed the peak oil point.

Hmmmm... you give this country credit for absolutely nothing. our economy crashes and there will barely be a ripple. The largest importer of goods no longer buying from the world market is going ot essentially do nothing. A month of inconvience and everything goes back to normal...LOL The largest exporter of goods goes down and no ripple. We develop nothing.. Well except for Tecnology, I mean we only ;lead the world in Industrial R&D. I am sure that has no effect on anything.

The United States has long led the industrialized world in the performance of industrial R&D. Over the past 2 decades, however, U.S. dominance has been challenged. The U.S. share of total industrial R&D performed by the OECD countries fell between 1973 and 1992. (See figure 6-9.) Despite this decline, the United States remains the leading performer of industrial R&D by a wide margin, even surpassing the combined R&D of the 12-nation European Community. True to its belief in the economic benefits of investments in R&D, Japan followed a high R&D growth path during the 1970s and 1980s that led to a near doubling of its share of total OECD R&D over the 20-year period

The US dominates the global fortune 500, 3 of the top 4 most profitable companies are american and american based, Britain has one in the top 10 I believe then dissapears till 35.

I guess i just find it amazing that the leader in development of new technoloy, R&D and drug research collapses and there would be little effect. That trillions of spending dollars get taken off the market and it causes little if any problems other then a few months of turbulence. Per most europeans, I think you underestimate this country. Which is okay actualy...... But since in the end I am not an economist I guess you could be right. But IMO you , your kids or your kids kids will not see this countries downfall.

[Rat Faced]

Now go and look at the people doing the R&D... most are not American.

US pays more, and this causes a brain drain from the rest of the world. Those R&D scientists would just go home.

Technology? Wasnt so long ago when you could send rockets up there, but didnt have the technology to build the actual satelites, you got those from Europe... not now.

No, there would certainly be huge consequences of an American Collapse. It would cause a collapse in Asia too.

As Asia accounts for most of OUR imports, then our own companies would have a field day trying to fill the gap.

It would cause inflation on a massive scale for a short period OR a price war, depending upon the scale of the ASIAN collapse.

[j2k4]

When the UK Minimum Wage was introduced, we heard all these arguments coming from the employers beforehand.

Employment went UP, very few companies went under and the "new" money getting circulated into the economy stopped us going into the recession the rest of the world is now coming out of.

The Minimum Wage(s) in the UK are:

£5.05 per hour for workers aged 22 years and older

A development rate of £4.25 per hour for
workers aged 18 - 21 years inclusive
workers aged 22 years and above, starting a new job with a new employer and doing accredited training*

£3.00 per hour which applies to all workers under the age of 18 who are no longer of compulsory school age.


It therefore takes into account that they are more likely to have a family when they're older and live with their family whilst younger.

There's also a very likely increase in the Minimum Wage in the South East to £7.00+ on the cards, and this is being led by the employers to a large extent, not the Government. They actually want the legislation so that they'd all be on the same bases, rather than go into a wages war in the service/retail sectors.

I think the Exchange rate is about 1.85 at this moment in time..

Therefore in your money the minimum wage(s) are $9.29, $7.86 & $5.55 respectively, with a proposed $12.95 in the South East.


Surely if our puny economy can afford that, so can your huge one?

You have Socialist economy, too.

Different bird, I think you'll find.

To the extent your "employers" practice a true (and barely functional) communism in order to perpetuate themselves, our employers would run in the opposite direction, because we are a competitive economy, as compared to yours.

We have a different system, with a bigger potential payoff (we think), and, while each has it's efficiencies, they are not co-equal, you see.

Ours is bigger (God help me, I love saying that).

[calm2chaos]

Now go and look at the people doing the R&D... most are not American.

I will assume this to be completely false unless you have something to back it up. ANYTHING to back this up.

US pays more, and this causes a brain drain from the rest of the world. Those R&D scientists would just go home.

They are home in america.. This is there country making them americans. I would be willing to bet the majority of these people are US born and bred

Technology? Wasnt so long ago when you could send rockets up there, but didnt have the technology to build the actual satelites, you got those from Europe... not now.

Ya theres so little difference between a rocket that goes 80 miles and landing on the moon.... Luckily for us that we are not living in the past anymore.... The breakthoughs and advances you are seeing are from America, it innovation and development. You take that technology and build on it a little. But lets rememebr where the source comes from.

No, there would certainly be huge consequences of an American Collapse. It would cause a collapse in Asia too.

It would cause a world colapse without a doubt. NO .. I don't think your capable of filling any void left in the market place if the US bowed out. Not in quantity or quality. Asia would collapse for sure and you would follow right behind them. The technology would remain essentially stagnant, and the same goes for development. With the decrease in production and technology the Inflation would drive the rest into the ground

As Asia accounts for most of OUR imports, then our own companies would have a field day trying to fill the gap.

Which they wouldn't be able. Refer to above post

It would cause inflation on a massive scale for a short period OR a price war, depending upon the scale of the ASIAN collapse.

It would cause your collapse and the world reccesion. All in all a moot point since your not going to be seeing this happen.

[vidcc]

The terrible effect of raising the minimum wage

J2 I seem to remember you suggesting that what happens in one state would be mirrored in another

[Rat Faced]

I will assume this to be completely false unless you have something to back it up. ANYTHING to back this up.

US pays more, and this causes a brain drain from the rest of the world. Those R&D scientists would just go home.

They are home in america.. This is there country making them americans. I would be willing to bet the majority of these people are US born and bred.

Ok... 17% of everyone employed in US Information Technology, as an example, are foreign nationals (as at 1998, source www.cpst.org) hired as skilled workers, under your highly skilled migrant visa program.

Usually, depending upon the company hierarchy and size, around 60-70% of a companies staff is involved as "Support Staff" (reception, sales, HR, admin etc etc), plus a percentage for management (Im sure J2 can give us closer estimates as to the usual ratio's in a large/medium US Company).

IF all Companies in IT were therefor doing the skilled research or programming; 17 + 60 = 77 + % for management (say 10?) = 13% left that could actually be US citizenes doing that "skilled" work.

However... not every company in Information Technology will be doing the skilled stuff which the foreign nationals have been hired to do. Some (most even) companies will just be "Selling Computers" or "Data Input", these dont qualify for the highly skilled migrant program. Therefor that 17% takes on a more significant meaning.. it must be MORE than 17% in the companies actually doing the skilled programming, system analyses and hardware research.

Hell, your Government itself is acknowledging that for the last 5 years or so they've been worried about a "Reverse Brain Drain", something thats never happened before, because your own companies are starting to outsource abroad and are offshoring.

Heres a snippet from your own press about that:

Until recently, if Americans heard the words "brain drain," they knew clearly what that meant: Bright, talented scientists, engineers and other techies from all over the world were migrating to the United States. They were drawn here by the world's best universities, the most dynamic companies, the freest economic and social environment and the highest standard of living.

Today, while many of these conditions still apply, Americans are starting to hear a new term: "reverse brain drain." What it suggests is the United States is pursuing government and private-sector policies that, over the long run, could lead to a significant shift in the world's balance of brainpower

Source

By the way... most of them will be from Europe or Asia. Western Europeans dont generally want to be Americans. They are there for work, and only because of the work. Cant see many Japanese going out oftheir way to become Americans either...

Stop assuming everyone wants to be an American, its a false assumption based upon a lot of illegal immigration from certain countries. We either all hate you or we all want to be you... make your mind up please. (Its actually neither... USA is a lovely place to visit with fantastic people, I intend to return as often as possible, but i'd hate to live there.)

Technology? Wasnt so long ago when you could send rockets up there, but didnt have the technology to build the actual satelites, you got those from Europe...

Ya theres so little difference between a rocket that goes 80 miles and landing on the moon.... Luckily for us that we are not living in the past anymore.... The breakthoughs and advances you are seeing are from America, it innovation and development. You take that technology and build on it a little. But lets rememebr where the source comes from.

Then why is there such a hoo hah about NASA wanting to buy Russian Technology? Could it be, perhaps, its better than your own in parts?

Old Technology at that...

The CIA rates the USA as "amongst the forefront" in most research categories..."amongst"... see, Research is usually an International Effort, unless its for a specific Commercial purpose. A lot of it is done by Universities for example, and they tend to share the stuff between themselves, so its very hard to say, i'd say virtually impossiible to say, "This was 100% developed here by only our citizens".

No, there would certainly be huge consequences of an American Collapse. It would cause a collapse in Asia too.

It would cause a world colapse without a doubt. NO .. I don't think your capable of filling any void left in the market place if the US bowed out. Not in quantity or quality. Asia would collapse for sure and you would follow right behind them. The technology would remain essentially stagnant, and the same goes for development. With the decrease in production and technology the Inflation would drive the rest into the ground

You assume that the US exports loads to Europe... its not much actually (maybe to Eastern Europe or others outside the EU). The Quality of the stuff sucks and its too expensive so we wont buy it, at least if its from Asia we trust the quality and its cheap. Even the F150 pick up wont sell here, its crap.

As Asia accounts for most of OUR imports, then our own companies would have a field day trying to fill the gap.

Which they wouldn't be able. Refer to above post.

They'd fill the gap from the USA easily..there wouldnt BE much of a gap. See above post.

As I said, if the Asian Economy totally collapsed, then you'd have a point. However, as i said earlier, this isnt necessarily so... ours is a larger market for Asia than the US is.

It would cause inflation on a massive scale for a short period OR a price war, depending upon the scale of the ASIAN collapse.

It would cause your collapse and the world reccesion. All in all a moot point since your not going to be seeing this happen.

Could EASILY see it happen.

Your own Experts say its a matter of time (including Alan Greenspan), and they expect it to be within this decade... some say as little as 5 years away in fact.

Iran was, the last I heard, setting up an Oil Exchange in Euro's and Putin was certainly talking about selling Russian Oil in Euro's (as most that Russia sells goes to Europe).

Venesualla is also talking about Euros to sell its oil (mind, its also doing something similar to bartering with Cuba last I heard, so who knows what they'll be doing?...).

Did you note, by the way, that one of the first things that the USA did in Iraq was ensure that the Oil was once again sold in Dollars? Despite the cost to a bankrupt "provisional Government"....

[Rat Faced]

The terrible effect of raising the minimum wage

J2 I seem to remember you suggesting that what happens in one state would be mirrored in another

Impossible..

J2 assured me that this could only happen in our "socialist" system..