A little less than what?Originally Posted by Busyman™
True dat. I'm a little more direct with with a little less subtlety.
No you don't.
You don't do "coy" well at all.
en(un)lightened
A little less than what?True dat. I'm a little more direct with with a little less subtlety.
No you don't.
You don't do "coy" well at all.
"Researchers have already cast much darkness on the subject, and if they continue their investigations, we shall soon know nothing at all about it."
-Mark Twain
Use Logic Or STFU!
Ok my bad, no subtlety.A little less than what?
slowly going deaf
Israel halts air attacks in south Lebanon By KATHERINE SHRADER and KATHY GANNON, Associated Press Writers
26 minutes ago
JERUSALEM - Israel suspended air attacks on south Lebanon for 48 hours starting early Monday in the face of widespread outrage over an airstrike on a house that killed 56 Lebanese, almost all of them women and children.
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The announcement — made by a State Department spokesman with Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice in Jerusalem — appeared to reflect American pressure on Israel to make some concession after the strike.
In addition to suspending air attacks, Israel will also allow the opening of corridors for Lebanese civilians who want to leave south Lebanon for the north and would maintain land, sea and air corridors for humanitarian assistance, officials said.
Israeli officials confirmed Prime Minister Ehud Olmert agreed to an immediate 48-hour halt in the airstrikes beginning at 2 a.m. Monday while the military concludes its inquiry into the attack on the south Lebanese village of Qana. The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to talk to reporters.
Israeli warplanes struck suspected guerrilla positions in eastern Lebanon near the border with Syria just before the suspension took effect, security officials said. It was not known what was hit in the area, where radical Syrian-backed Palestinian factions have bases.
The officials left open the possibility that Israel might hit targets to stop imminent attacks, and that the suspension could last less than 48 hours if the military completes its inquiry before then.
Lebanon said the Israeli suspension was inadequate.
"There is no cease-fire and there is no cessation of hostilities," Lebanese special envoy Nouhad Mahoud told reporters at the United Nations late Sunday. "We are looking for something much more than that."
Hezbollah did not announce any reciprocal gestures and there were no reports of rocket attacks on Israel overnight.
The bloodshed in Lebanon prompted Rice to cut short her Mideast mission and intensified world demands on Washington to back an immediate end to the fighting.
In Jerusalem, Rice called the Qana bombing "awful" and said she will push for a cease-fire and a "lasting settlement" in the conflict through a U.N. Security Council resolution this week. It appeared to be her first real call for a quick end to the bloodshed.
"I am convinced that only by achieving both will the Lebanese people be able to control their country and their future, and the people of Israel finally be able to live free of attack from terrorist groups in Lebanon," Rice told reporters Monday before departing for Washington.
A three-story house on the outskirts of Qana was leveled when a missile crashed into it at 1 a.m. Red Cross officials said 56 were killed and police said 34 children and 12 adult women were among the dead. It was worst single strike since Israel's campaign in Lebanon began on July 12 when Hezbollah militants crossed the border into Israel and abducted two soldiers.
The attack in Qana brought Lebanon's death toll to more than 510 and pushed American peace efforts to a crucial juncture, as fury at the United States flared in Lebanon.
The Beirut government said it would no longer negotiate over a U.S. peace package without an unconditional cease-fire.
In Qana, workers pulled dirt-covered bodies of young boys and girls — dressed in the shorts and T-shirts they had been sleeping in — out of the mangled wreckage of the building. Bodies were carried in blankets.
Two extended families, the Shalhoubs and the Hashems, had gathered in the house for shelter from another night of Israeli bombardment in the border area when the strike brought the building down.
"I was so afraid. There was dirt and rocks and I couldn't see. Everything was black," said 13-year-old Noor Hashem, who survived, although her five siblings did not. She was pulled out of the ruins by her uncle, whose wife and five children also died.
Israel apologized for the deaths but blamed Hezbollah guerrillas, saying they had fired rockets into northern Israel from near the building.
President Bush repeated his call for a "sustainable peace" and said: America mourns the loss of innocent life, those tragic occasions when innocent people are killed."
Before the suspension of airstrikes was announced, Olmert told Rice the campaign to crush Hezbollah could last up to two weeks more.
"We will not stop this battle, despite the difficult incidents this morning," he told his Cabinet after the strike, according to a participant. "If necessary, it will be broadened without hesitation."
The U.N. Security Council met in an emergency session Sunday and approved a presidential statement that called for an end to violence in Lebanon and deplored Israel's attack on Qana. But it stopped short of condemning Israel.
After news of the deaths emerged, Rice telephoned Lebanese Prime Minister Fuad Saniora and said she would stay in Jerusalem to continue work on a peace package, rather than make a planned visit to Beirut on Sunday. Saniora said he told her not to come.
British Prime Minister Tony Blair, who earlier supported the U.S. stance, said Washington must work faster to put together the broader deal it seeks.
But Saniora said talk of a larger peace package must wait until the firing stops.
"We will not negotiate until the Israeli war stops shedding the blood of innocent people," he told a gathering of foreign diplomats. But he underlined that Lebanon stands by ideas for disarming Hezbollah that it put forward earlier this week and that Rice praised.
He took a tough line and hinted that any Hezbollah response to the airstrike at the village of Qana was justified.
"As long as the aggression continues there is response to be exercised," he said, praising Hezbollah's leader Sheik Hassan Nasrallah for his "sacrifices."
Lebanon demanded an international probe.
Hezbollah said on its Al-Manar television that it will retaliate, vowing, "The massacre at Qana will not go unanswered." It hit northern Israel on Sunday with 157 rockets — the highest one-day total during the offensive — with one Israeli moderately wounded and 12 others lightly hurt, medics said.
Iraq's top Shiite cleric, Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, demanded an immediate cease-fire in Lebanon, warning the Muslim world will "not forgive" nations that stand in the way of stopping the fighting.
Lebanese anger was heightened by memories of a 1996 Israeli artillery bombardment that hit a U.N. base in Qana, killing more than 100 Lebanese who had taken refuge from fighting. That attack sparked an international outcry that forced a halt to an Israeli offensive.
In Beirut, some 5,000 protesters gathered downtown, at one point attacking a U.N. building and burning American flags. They shouted "Destroy Tel Aviv!" and chanted for Hezbollah's ally Syria to hit Israel.
In the Gaza Strip, Palestinians stormed a U.N. compound and smashed its windows Sunday during a protest against Israeli airstrikes. Security officials fired into the air to disperse them.
Images of children's bodies tangled in the building's ruins, being carried away on blankets or wrapped in plastic sheeting were aired on Arab news networks.
In Qana, Khalil Shalhoub was helping pull out the dead until he saw his brother's body taken out on a stretcher.
"Why are they killing us? What have we done?" he screamed.
Israel said Hezbollah had fired more than 40 rockets from Qana before the airstrike, including several from near the building that was bombed.
At a news conference in Tel Aviv Sunday night, military officers showed aerial footage taken two days ago of Katyusha rockets being fired near houses in Qana, and of a Katyusha launcher firing missiles and then being driven into Qana and hidden inside a house.
Foreign Ministry official Gideon Meir accused Hezbollah of "using their own civilian population as human shields."
Israel said residents of Qana had been warned to leave. But Shalhoub and others in the village said residents were too terrified to take the road out of the village.
More than 750,000 Lebanese have fled their homes in the fighting. But many thousands more are still believed holed up in the south, taking refuge in schools, hospitals or basements of apartment buildings amid the fighting — many of them too afraid to flee.
Lebanese Defense Minister Elias Murr disputed allegations that Hezbollah was firing missiles from Qana.
"What do you expect Israel to say? Will it say that it killed 40 children and women?" he told Al-Jazeera television.
Before dawn Sunday, Israeli ground forces backed by heavy artillery fire crossed the border and clashed with Hezbollah guerrillas in the Taibeh Project area, about two miles inside Lebanon. Hezbollah said two of its fighters were killed. Eight Israeli soldiers were wounded.
Some 460 Lebanese, mostly civilians, had been killed in the campaign through Saturday, according to the Health Ministry — before the attacks on Qana. Thirty-three Israeli soldiers have died, and Hezbollah rocket attacks on Israel have killed 18 civilians, Israel said.
____
Kathy Gannon reported from Qana, Lebanon.
sending fiery missiles inmanker'sjapan's general direction.
re-member
BT Rep: +1
.Erm..has something changed then?
Colonel
No.
What Israel is doing right now is nothing short of what the Nazi's were doing in the late 30's and early 40's.
How anyone can blindly support a government that is committing genocide is beyond me....and the fact that other governments support it, well now that's just a bit absurd.
At the same time I condemn what the Hezbollah group has done and to some extent what they are doing, as in firing rockets blindly into Israel that has a lot of potential to kill/injure civillians, but I do support them when it comes to fighting the Israeli army, as in, not targeting civillians and using firearms/mortars to fight of the military (defending themselves).
I really hope this conflict comes to an end soon, but alas, that is highly unlikely. I want to also say that I have nothing against the Jews, just the Zionists that wish to eradicate an entire race of people, and likewise for the extremist islamic groups that will stop at nothing to eradicate the Jews.
In the end, Zionists ARE radical muslims, just with a different point of view, a different religion, and a shitload more weapons and technology.
But I would like to point out something: If you're homeland was taken over by another group of people who wanted nothing more than for you and your kind to pack up and leave, while "they" cut off basic necessities and forced you to live in refugee camps for years on end, would you not pick up a gun and fight?
I sure as hell know that I would.
That was a bit exaggerated, I know full well that before the Holocaust, there were many Jews living in Palestine in harmony with Arabs. It just really makes me mad that what is allowed to happen there goes unnoticed by the rest of the world, and for that matter no one cares about the suffering of the Palestinians. And so they have to resort to drastic measures. While I'm at it, I also condemn suicide attacks and killing of innocent civillians, but pray tell, how can you justify the thousands and thousands of civillians the Israeli's have killed? Americans sure can be blind sometimes to support their government a bit too much, let along another govenment just because they're fighting supposed "terrorists". Sickening.
[/rant]
Jeff Loomis: He's so good, he doesn't need to be dead to have a tribute.
en(un)lightened
I realize that was a rant, but rants aren't productive.No.
What Israel is doing right now is nothing short of what the Nazi's were doing in the late 30's and early 40's.
How anyone can blindly support a government that is committing genocide is beyond me....and the fact that other governments support it, well now that's just a bit absurd.
WTF?
What genocide?
I believe the Germans started WWII (although a great case is made that the overly-punitive nature of the Versailles Treaty "caused" WWII).
This conflict cannot be characterized as having been sparked by any but Hezbollah's exploits.
At the same time I condemn what the Hezbollah group has done and to some extent what they are doing, as in firing rockets blindly into Israel that has a lot of potential to kill/injure civillians, but I do support them when it comes to fighting the Israeli army, as in, not targeting civillians and using firearms/mortars to fight of the military (defending themselves).
With the case you are attempting to make against Israel, why bother condemning Hezbollah at all?
You cannot condemn them in one breath and excuse them with the next.
I really hope this conflict comes to an end soon, but alas, that is highly unlikely. I want to also say that I have nothing against the Jews, just the Zionists that wish to eradicate an entire race of people, and likewise for the extremist islamic groups that will stop at nothing to eradicate the Jews.
You seem to have something backwards.
The Zionists are the Israeli Jews, and any sentiment expressed by way of genocidal eradication belongs to Hezbollah/Hamas/Syria/Iran/Palestine, not Israel.
As to the end of hostilities, better you wish for an end forever, rather than an end soon.
In the end, Zionists ARE radical muslims, just with a different point of view, a different religion, and a shitload more weapons and technology.
I'll settle for a simple () elucidation of this particular point.
But I would like to point out something: If you're homeland was taken over by another group of people who wanted nothing more than for you and your kind to pack up and leave, while "they" cut off basic necessities and forced you to live in refugee camps for years on end, would you not pick up a gun and fight?
I sure as hell know that I would.
That was a bit exaggerated, I know full well that before the Holocaust, there were many Jews living in Palestine in harmony with Arabs. It just really makes me mad that what is allowed to happen there goes unnoticed by the rest of the world, and for that matter no one cares about the suffering of the Palestinians. And so they have to resort to drastic measures. While I'm at it, I also condemn suicide attacks and killing of innocent civillians, but pray tell, how can you justify the thousands and thousands of civillians the Israeli's have killed? Americans sure can be blind sometimes to support their government a bit too much, let along another govenment just because they're fighting supposed "terrorists". Sickening.
[/rant]
What do you think would be Israel's fate were she not better-armed than her neighbors, and capable of defending herself?
Now, once you've got the answer firmly fixed in your mind, post again, and you might come up with what you really think.
"Researchers have already cast much darkness on the subject, and if they continue their investigations, we shall soon know nothing at all about it."
-Mark Twain
>H
How long is Israel going to be a 'jewish state'?
I mean its inherently a pretty racist idea isn't it, it might have made sense 40 odd years ago, but its just unrealistic with the amount of migration that goes on now.
I've completely changed my mind on the whole Israel thing, I'm all for scrapping it now along with palestine and renaming the whole landmass.
Not likely to happen anytime soon i know, but i'm sure the South africans thought they would never be able to coexist and they're slowly getting their shit together
en(un)lightened
Israel, even as a Jewish state, is at least a real democracy.
There are Arabs living there, too.
Any nascent democratic germination in Iraq aside, the type of racism you reference riddles the entire mid-east, Ian.
It is not the secular racism of slavery, either; it is almost entirely of a religious nature.
"Researchers have already cast much darkness on the subject, and if they continue their investigations, we shall soon know nothing at all about it."
-Mark Twain
Broken
Ah... the 25% of the population, that is restricted to 3% of the land... 95% of which is open for developmet to Jews only...
It's worth emphasizing that "Israeli democracy" is an incarnation of Apartheid South Africa's democracy.
It also could be argued that Apartheid South Africa was for a very long time the only democracy in Africa, however, it was a democracy for the White race only. Similarly, democracy in Israel was and still is designed to empower Jews only based on their religion.
At one point, Israel has to choose between being a "Democratic Jewish State" or a "Democratic State" to all of its citizens, Jews and non-Jews alike.
"But there are Arab MP's" I hear the cry... well, what type of Democracy is it where the MP's are shot by the police of their own country for protesting against the demolition of their constituants homes? And have their Parliamentary Immunity lifted for doing their Job if they disagree with Israeli Policy?
Eventually, such a facade to democracy will self-destruct, and until it changes, the talk about "Israeli democracy" is nothing but a propaganda that makes good sound bytes in the Western and Israeli press and TV.
An It Harm None, Do What You Will
en(un)lightened
Still, however you want to paint it, if the situation were reversed, the 25% would be dead, and certainly not buried in-country, but rather floating in the Med.
It is amazing to me the gymnastics of reason and logic people will perform in order hew to the misbegotten "enlightenment" of such an easy presumption of moral equivalence.
Israel cedes formerly "occupied" territory, then has soldiers killed and kidnapped for the ransom of terrorist prisoners, and gets rockets willy-nilly in return in an act of sheer provocation, then retaliates in defense of it's land, citizens, and political stance.
Israel's efforts are more damaging, because it has superior forces and weaponry, while Lebanon (not disavowing Hezbollah) cries it is being victimized, and the world makes noises about proportionate response.
Israel's aim is to end the conflict at the least cost to itself (naturally), while depleting the fortitude of the enemy.
Hezbollah, meanwhile, hides behind the Lebanese citizenry, which fails to appreciate the irony of that particular arrangement.
Israel's only option is to win.
Any mention of the fact of Hezbollah's having started all this is broadcast at the proximate volume of a whisper in the international arena or the U.N.
More U.N. resolutions are offered, to no avail.
Kofi Annan's public commentary is presumptively censorous and accusatory of Israel, sympatico toward Lebanon, and incognate of Hezbollah.
Lonely John Bolton sits astride the situation identifying every spade that presents.
It would be inappropriate, I think, to say now that 'it's a funny old world'.
"Researchers have already cast much darkness on the subject, and if they continue their investigations, we shall soon know nothing at all about it."
-Mark Twain
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