Should Israel just clear out of Lebanon...

[lynx]

Poppycock!

[j2k4]

Poppycock!

Funny, the same word popped into my head when reviewing your postage, but I translated it into American:

Bullshit!

[vidcc]

The words are the same .........just different sides.



and yes I chose that picture of Bush deliberately

[Rat Faced]

J2, you really are talking complete crap here.

Iran/Syria may have influence over the Shi'ite community which is a minority of the population.

However, as Syria spectacularly failed to use its much greater influence on that population to stay in occupation of Lebanon recently... I fail to see where you theory stands at any point.


As to your question.. Yes it should.

All of Lebanon, including the "disputed" shaba farms area. The only people "disputing" this is Israel and the UN as they were going off French Maps that even the French admit are wrong, and produced letters from the colonial days asking for changes to correct them that were never made...

Both Syria and Lebanon agree that the Shaba Farms area is Lebanese... and Lebanon has never attacked Israel, even when all the other "Arab" states joined together and did that.

[j2k4]

J2, you really are talking complete crap here.

Iran/Syria may have influence over the Shi'ite community which is a minority of the population.

However, as Syria spectacularly failed to use its much greater influence on that population to stay in occupation of Lebanon recently... I fail to see where you theory stands at any point.


As to your question.. Yes it should.

All of Lebanon, including the "disputed" shaba farms area. The only people "disputing" this is Israel and the UN as they were going off French Maps that even the French admit are wrong, and produced letters from the colonial days asking for changes to correct them that were never made...

Both Syria and Lebanon agree that the Shaba Farms area is Lebanese... and Lebanon has never attacked Israel, even when all the other "Arab" states joined together and did that.

Pish.

I'm not going to fight the same battle on different fronts.

Pick a thread, any thread, and stick with it?

I am going to also request that you post links to all these 'facts' you recount; I imagine I could refute them by "reputation" rather easily.

[Rat Faced]

Ok.. for your Biased look that it's an old issue, try..

Actions by the Lebanese extremist organization Hezbollah against Israeli interests, as well as Israeli occupation of the Sheba Farms, have only served to continue the state of hostility.

Which can be found Here

I'll stick to others though...

The UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan wrote in a report to the Security Council this week that the border was vague.

"There seems to be no official record of an international boundary agreement between Lebanon and Syria that could easily establish the line for purposes of confirming the withdrawal," he said


.......

Syria agrees with Lebanon that the Shebaa farms area is part of Lebanon.

How about from the year 2000? Source

"The dispute over the sovereignty of the Shebaa Farms originated with the failure of the French Mandate administrations to properly demarcate the border between Lebanon and Syria. Documents from the 1920s and 1930s show that the local inhabitants regarded themselves [as] part of Lebanon, for example paying taxes to the Lebanese government, but that French officials often expressed confusion on the question of where the border lay. A French official in 1939 expressed the belief that the uncertainty was sure to cause trouble in the future.

"When detailed maps of the border region were finally prepared by the French and British military administration during [the second world war], they showed the region in Syria, but the commission responsible for demarcating the border did not act decisively on the dispute before the French mandate ended in 1946. When the newly formed Lebanese and Syrian governments asked the French government for official information on their common border, it was revealed that almost nothing existed.

"Border disputes arose frequently, leading to the formation of a joint Lebanese-Syrian border demarcation commission. That commission decided in 1964 to include the Shebaa Farms in Lebanon, but apparently no official demarcation of the border actually occurred and the older maps showing the Shebaa Farms in Syria continued to be used.

"The local residents continued to regard themselves as Lebanese and the Lebanese government agreed but showed little interest. However, the Syrian government imposed itself on the region, at one point forcibly replacing the villagers' Lebanese identity cards with Syrian ones. On the eve of the 1967 war, the region was under effective Syrian control."

Source

ie: The Israeli's are occupying Lebanese Territory that was previously under the occupation of Syria.. it was not Syrian.

The total area involved is circa 25 km2, which is not a lot.

It's enough, however, to legitimise Hezbollah as a "Resistance" Organisation and not a Terrorist Organisation, in all but 6 countries in the world and the UN itself doesnt include them on theit list of "Terrorist Organisations"... (which is contradictory in that the UN also went off the incorrect Maps and indicated it was Syrian in 2000)

Lebanon has never attacked Israel, thats basic History..

They have shown support for others that have attacked Israel, and also allowed foreign troops to attack from Lebanon. Think about it.. their entire Army in 1947 was circa 3,500. It would not have made the slightest difference to have committed it, and left Lebanon totally defensless instead of virtually defensless.

No one expected them to commit troops, so no one asked them to.. although I do believe both Syrian and Jordanian Troops attacked from Lebanese Territory.

If that means that they have "attacked" Israel, then I guess that the UK has also "attacked" Libya by allowing US Jets to take off from here. If this definition was to be used in the future, the US would have far fewer staging posts around the world it could rely upon... indeed it would be evicted from most of them.

Showing support for an action and committing an action yourself are 2 very different things.

[j2k4]

Ok.. for your Biased look that it's an old issue, try..



Which can be found Here

I'll stick to others though...

The UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan wrote in a report to the Security Council this week that the border was vague.

"There seems to be no official record of an international boundary agreement between Lebanon and Syria that could easily establish the line for purposes of confirming the withdrawal," he said


.......

Syria agrees with Lebanon that the Shebaa farms area is part of Lebanon.

How about from the year 2000? Source

"The dispute over the sovereignty of the Shebaa Farms originated with the failure of the French Mandate administrations to properly demarcate the border between Lebanon and Syria. Documents from the 1920s and 1930s show that the local inhabitants regarded themselves [as] part of Lebanon, for example paying taxes to the Lebanese government, but that French officials often expressed confusion on the question of where the border lay. A French official in 1939 expressed the belief that the uncertainty was sure to cause trouble in the future.

"When detailed maps of the border region were finally prepared by the French and British military administration during [the second world war], they showed the region in Syria, but the commission responsible for demarcating the border did not act decisively on the dispute before the French mandate ended in 1946. When the newly formed Lebanese and Syrian governments asked the French government for official information on their common border, it was revealed that almost nothing existed.

"Border disputes arose frequently, leading to the formation of a joint Lebanese-Syrian border demarcation commission. That commission decided in 1964 to include the Shebaa Farms in Lebanon, but apparently no official demarcation of the border actually occurred and the older maps showing the Shebaa Farms in Syria continued to be used.

"The local residents continued to regard themselves as Lebanese and the Lebanese government agreed but showed little interest. However, the Syrian government imposed itself on the region, at one point forcibly replacing the villagers' Lebanese identity cards with Syrian ones. On the eve of the 1967 war, the region was under effective Syrian control."

Source

ie: The Israeli's are occupying Lebanese Territory that was previously under the occupation of Syria.. it was not Syrian.

The total area involved is circa 25 km2, which is not a lot.

It's enough, however, to legitimise Hezbollah as a "Resistance" Organisation and not a Terrorist Organisation, in all but 6 countries in the world and the UN itself doesnt include them on theit list of "Terrorist Organisations"... (which is contradictory in that the UN also went off the incorrect Maps and indicated it was Syrian in 2000)

I am feeling lazy, and am still spread too thin, so I will take this paragraph as an example of the absolutely flaccid reasoning which permeates your entire argument.

It is very likely that the six countries who stand alone in their agreement that Hezbollah is a terrorist organization have at some juncture been targeted by Hezbollah, and have arrived at their negative conclusion with cause.

I ask you, therefore:

What reason would any other country have for applying the label of 'terrorist organization', absent any direct attack by Hezbollah, especially as it might reasonably conclude that to do so would result in it's being seen as another potential target?


Lebanon has never attacked Israel, thats basic History..

They have shown support for others that have attacked Israel, and also allowed foreign troops to attack from Lebanon. Think about it.. their entire Army in 1947 was circa 3,500. It would not have made the slightest difference to have committed it, and left Lebanon totally defensless instead of virtually defensless.

No one expected them to commit troops, so no one asked them to.. although I do believe both Syrian and Jordanian Troops attacked from Lebanese Territory.

If that means that they have "attacked" Israel, then I guess that the UK has also "attacked" Libya by allowing US Jets to take off from here. If this definition was to be used in the future, the US would have far fewer staging posts around the world it could rely upon... indeed it would be evicted from most of them.

Showing support for an action and committing an action yourself are 2 very different things.

I would make the case that Israel attacked Hezbollah (NOT Lebanon), which saw a benefit to themselves, and the opposite for Israel, by situating themselves in close proximity to Lebanese civilians and infrastructure, all of which renders Hezbollah a terrorist organization.

[Rat Faced]

Bollocks.

Israel attacked parts of Lebanon where Hezbollah, and Muslims in General, are not welcomed with open arms.

They destroyed an International Airport, Official Lebanese army Posts and Bombed Hospitals and known UN Observers (which were 5km away from the nearest Hezbollah emplacement). Not to mention the majot Cities that cannot be said to be in Southern Lebanon.


Yes, Hezbollah have attacked the US Military.

Where were the US soldiers at the time? Lebanon.

They have attacked Israel.. Occupying Lebanon.

They have attacked other Foreign Soldiers.. In Lebanon.


Thats the thing you see... Resistance Fighters resist.


Anyway, we all know that Israel can do no wrong in the eyes of the USA.. hell you even let them bomb your own ships (USS Liberty) and sell your Military Secrets and they remain squeaky clean.

And you wonder why the Mulim World gets pissed off? Jeez...


BTW, considering the annoyance you have shown to people not quoting your whole posts in the past... why did you remove the relevant part from the the quote of my post?

ie:

Actions by the Lebanese extremist organization Hezbollah against Israeli interests, as well as Israeli occupation of the Sheba Farms, have only served to continue the state of hostility

Taken from your beloved Fox...


Now, I'll agree that Hamas is a Terrorist Organisation... which puts me in a quandry on that, because its also a Democratically Elected government.

[j2k4]

Hmmm.

Hezbollah is fairly elected.

Why don't they wear uniforms and fight by the rules?

Yet another quandary, eh?

[Biggles]

Should Israel withdraw from Lebanon?

That is a matter for the Lebanese Government. If they wanted them to stay then it would questionable whether any of us should gainsay that position.

However, I have heard little to suggest that any of the Lebanese factions, Christians, Shias, Sunni or Druze, express a preference for Israel to stay. Consequently, I think it reasonable to suggest that the proposed plan, that Israel leave and that the Lebanese Army with UN support takeover security for the south of the country, go ahead. I do not think Israel staying is a better plan or more likely to result in a peaceful settlement.

Hezbollah argue that the prisoners and the Chaba farms are their key issues. It looks like these are both going to be resolved. After this and with a strengthened Lebanese Army in place then Hezbollah as a separate military force will have no logical purpose. Hezbollah as the political voice of the Shia looks set to stay for some time.

Iran and Syria will undoubtedly continue to support Hezbollah - if not with arms then with money for its political wing. I do not think we should be overly surprised by this. It is not as if we have not done similar in various parts of the world since WW2. I think it most likely that we will support the Lebanese Government in part to counter Iranian influence in the region.