Why Is It Ok For Usa & Uk To Have Wmd?

[hobbes]

Originally posted by echidna@7 May 2003 - 11:13


the USA maintains that their arsenal is a deterrent [this deterrrent incidentally, seemed to do nothing against the S11 kamikazes], yet it is unreasonable for N Korea to have a [much smaller] similar deterrent

Right or wrong is irrelvant.

I'm certainly happier 9/11 involved two domestic airliners and not a hydrogen bomb (sold to the highest bidder) in downtown Manhattan.

It is not really North Korea we fear, but their motivated customers.

Terrorist attacks are only attempted by motivated political or religious groups (notice, I have avoided the word "terrorists" as this is a perspective issue) who do not work with the open support of their homeland or their current hosting nation. Had the Saudi government taken responsibilty for 9/11 and claimed that it correctly reflected the hatred of Saudis, in general, I think it would be called "the hole formerly known as Saudi Arabia".


So, this is why we act proactively, with 9/11 as the teaching point.

Right or wrong, fiddlesticks.

As a nation we are going to search out and destroy that which we perceive to be a threat. We do this because we can, and you would as well. A stitch in time.......

Since you don't know my history, I have 3 threads dealing with accountability and the need to demonstrate proof (WMD) that Iraq WAS a threat to the US. Otherwise we will come off as imperalist liars spouting rhetoric to achieve hidden political agendas. Point being, I try to be objective and not use my flag as a blindfold to hide myself from the truth. I try not to twist the truth to fit into some sort of preconceived conclusion.



EDit- moved aside to correct thread

[ShareDaddy]

Either way you look at it, anyone with nuclear capability can be a threat, however as the US and the UK are both governed by laws, belong to NATO and the UN there are several laws regarding storage, security and use of such weapons to dissuade improper use. As IRAQ, North Korea and various other nations are not governed by such laws there is and will always be extreme risk with letting them create and distribute WMD at will.

I would like to offer this metaphor:
First think of the Earth as a very large prison, from which there is no escape. Second think of the US and UK as prison guards lets say, as with all prisons the prisoners do not get to pick and choose the guards. So now we have a prison and we have guards, like it or not. Now the Guards have WMD, this is in effect a method of insuring the prisoners do not get out of hand (remember it is what the guards think is out of hand, not what the prisoners think). Now a prisoner begins making his own WMD, should the guards allow this to happen, let him create them, control them, sell them? No, the guards are there to insure the prisoners do no harm to the prisoners or the guards, or effect damage to the prison.

I was going to use a different metaphor; something relating it to children, however the Prison thing just happened and I think it works well.

[clocker]

No doubt that a large percentage of the Congolese would find your prison metaphor rather apt.

[hobbes]

What if the guards are corrupt?

We have to honestly admit that if WMD were to be used against an American enemy without provokation, we would use some fall guy intermediary and claim innocence. We would righteously condemn such act and would swear to get to the bottom of all of this.

The US, as clearly the most powerful country in the world, can do what it wants to secure it's own security. This will not come without consequence if we act without justification. Eventually an anti-American coalition will evolve and we will be crushed. Please look at the sine curve called history, which documents the cyclical rise and fall of nations.

That is again why I preach responsibility and credibility.

We are not "right" and the rest of the world "wrong", we are just selfishly securing the future of our country. How we do this, largely effects our success in the long run.

[kAb]

We can control our WMD. Rogue countries like Iraq and Iran, can't. Plus they promised not to have any. But then they break their promise.

Russia should never have had WMD either, they've let way to much info on WMD slip through their hands

[echidna]

@hobbes ::
i apreciate your position but,
i think the USAs perception of how its 'proactive' actions/stance is viewed in the majority world is inaccurate
to say that they seem prvocative would be a diplomatic understatement

@Sharedaddy ::
to think that the USA abides by international law is to demonstrate a severe historical data deficeit
eg. the two last engagements in afganistan[not so much] and iraq[fully], the prisoners in guantanamo bay, laos and cambidias carpet bombing and dioxine poisoning experience and staging a coup de tat on behalf of the chiquita bannana company for starters
no one with any understanding of the stautus quo and how we got here should honestly beleive that this cop isn't breaking the law
it is mafia policing leaving chaos in its wake to drum up better business
bush part 1 built the WMD capability for saddam through the cia while he had his other hand up reagans ass

'wake up and smell the coffee Mrs Bueller he's just leading you down the primrose path'

and f%ck living in a prison if your content with that fine the a lot of us don't call that living, especially with these guards


it seems so frustrating that the 'most powerful nation on earth' won't be so for ever as hobbes points out, but while it is it has the unique oportunity to disarm and defuse the world it sent mad at los alamos
we won't lose the know how but i like the medical imaging technologies which have spun off.
but when the USA goes it's another ball game and the chance will be gone
the world sees the USA spending all of our environments and resources as fast as you can while running the first ever solo arms race marathon and playing dictators off against each other to leverage trade deals
you leader talk high and act low
there is no trust just acceptance and everyones myriad conections and exposures to the US market
there's talking the talk but . . .

fight the power or spurn the words of the star spangled banner kiddies :: remember the revolution it might be time again

[MagicNakor]

Originally posted by echidna@9 May 2003 - 06:21
remember the revolution it might be time again

You mean you're over-taxed and have no actual representation in your government?



Edit: typo

[echidna]

Originally posted by MagicNakor+9 May 2003 - 15:51--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (MagicNakor @ 9 May 2003 - 15:51)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--echidna@9 May 2003 - 06:21
remember the revolution it might be time again

You mean you&#39;re over-taxed and have no actual representation in your government?



Edit: typo [/b][/quote]
i wouldn&#39;t disagree with that
should we start a poll

[harrycary]

I&#39;m from America and I don&#39;t want ego-maniacal dictators like Saddam Hussein or Kim Jong-il gaining/having access to weapons of mass destruction.

History, if anything, has shown that such leaders are more prone to use them.

This is not to mention the [despicable]crimes against humanity that are inflicted by such men.

Frankly, someone has to go in there and get rid of these jagoffs. And I don&#39;t care who does it. It just seems we[Americans] are the only ones willing to.

Yeah, the US has its problems, but Democracy is still the best form of government on the planet(IMO).

that&#39;s my &#036;.02

[echidna]

Originally posted by harrycary@9 May 2003 - 17:04

History, if anything, has shown that such leaders are more prone to use them.

you lie,or are misled
History, if anything, has shown that only one nation has ever been aggresive enough to use nukes
and you&#39;re trying to tell me that it indicates that nations other than the USA are the ones more likely to use these weapons
thats a high pile of horse eggs partner and i aint digging that sh*t
i will grant that the USA is unlikely to use nukes agaisnt the USA and that as such the US posession of WMD is less of a risk to the USA than other nations holding, but don&#39;t you kids worry about having all those bombs and factories for making bombs about the country side? you know that NBC is owned by General Electric Corperation who have been right hand pentagon partners in atomic bomb and balistic missile RnD and production since day one, don&#39; t you? know who tells you what and why
Oh and don&#39;t beleive M&#036; encarta misinformation bill gates reckons that the US won the vietnam war huh
he should realy get some better reseachers he can afford to know better