What Did They Die For?

[vidcc]

Would it be fair to say this qualifies as a nuance?

Bin Laden and Al Qaeda are merely the tree which springs from the root being fertilized by Wahhibism, and the Moqtada al Sadrs and Nasrallahs of the Islamic world.

The mal-intent toward the west is interwoven with Islam at every level, inculcated in children from the earliest stages.

Allahu Akbar! is on every student's lips.

This creates a fervor for the "cause" which isn't altered or short-circuited by any gestures of appeasement such as removal of a troop-force.

We are not going to desert Israel, either.

In the US, a hugely christian land, isn't the same message preached, "god is greater than everything".?


Had we not been in saudi would we have been targetted? I mean they didn't attack belgium did they?
perhaps you missed the point of what I said.

They "hate us for our freedoms" makes a for a great soundbite to stir emotions but less of a reason that they attacked us.

it is used here to propagate fear, demonise the enemy and deflect from any other reason that may not be in our favor to deal with. The same tactic is used on the other side to rouse the masses to a cause.
You can see the same tactic with different words in every day American politics. Listen to limbaugh or hannity.

Simply put, not even "re-deployment" and a commensurate lessening of influence can undo their efforts to date.

Could the damage have already been done? It's not just about troops now.

Do you propose the U.N. undertake to de-program Islamic youth in it's entirety?

Do I propose ??????????

If you wish to propose something and ask if I think it's a good idea then feel free to do so, other than that please explain which ass you pulled that proposal and attached to me from.

[Busyman™]

Where have those pesky colored alerts gone off to?

[j2k4]

In the US, a hugely christian land, isn't the same message preached, "god is greater than everything".?


Had we not been in saudi would we have been targetted? I mean they didn't attack belgium did they?
perhaps you missed the point of what I said.

They "hate us for our freedoms" makes a for a great soundbite to stir emotions but less of a reason that they attacked us.

it is used here to propagate fear, demonise the enemy and deflect from any other reason that may not be in our favor to deal with. The same tactic is used on the other side to rouse the masses to a cause.
You can see the same tactic with different words in every day American politics. Listen to limbaugh or hannity.

Simply put, not even "re-deployment" and a commensurate lessening of influence can undo their efforts to date.

Could the damage have already been done? It's not just about troops now.

Do you propose the U.N. undertake to de-program Islamic youth in it's entirety?

Do I propose ??????????

If you wish to propose something and ask if I think it's a good idea then feel free to do so, other than that please explain which ass you pulled that proposal and attached to me from.

Okay, have it your way:

How do you propose we "undo" Wahhabism?

I made the mistake of assuming you'd prefer it done in the usual way.

BTW-

In our "hugely Christian land" where do you go to find youngsters

imbued with the duty to shed Islamic blood?

Hell, they teach the anti-west message in mosques right here in America.

[Ava Estelle]

Nope, Christianity teaches forgiveness, not fatwah.

Christianity has been responsible over the centuries for the biggest 'fatwahs' ever, remember the Inquisitions?

Christianity teaches that the ONLY way to god is through Jesus and the Vatican has often stated that all other religions are 'misguided'.

Muslin countries are then attacked by a Christian country claiming to have god on their side.

The Middle East is crawling with Christians actively working to bring on the 'rapture', which they claim will save only them, no jews, no muslims or anyone else.

.. the root being fertilized by Wahhibism, and the Moqtada al Sadrs and Nasrallahs of the Islamic world.

Moqtada al Sadr and Nasrallah are shiites.

If the words come directly from the mouths of the Jihadists for all to hear, and appear on videotape for all to see, who are you to call them liars?

So George Bush and his harem tell the truth do they? They don't make things up to motivate the American people?

You claim to know better...could you explain how you come by this highly-privileged knowledge?

Maybe you should answer your own question, or do we take it for granted that the answer is 'Fox News'?

Would it be fair to say that they don't like our beliefs or way of life, but that they attacked us for something else?

A voice of reason in a sea of spin.

[Chip Monk]

How very BD

You made a statement that was incorrect but you can't admit that, so you post a load of deflection saying that other people are as bad.

Tu quoque, same old same old.

[vidcc]

Okay, have it your way:

How do you propose we "undo" Wahhabism?

I made the mistake of assuming you'd prefer it done in the usual way.

That is a long task that will take generations, but to start with I would look deeply into our foreign policy. We need to start being minimalists when it comes to interfering in the affairs of other nations, and when we do deal with others we need to stop looking at things purely from "what benefits us".
We can work with other nations without interfering with their internal affairs.
The US works best when it is helping in situations such as natural disasters. This can be enhanced with international coalitions to step in to prevent things like genocide.
In conflicts where we have no direct military involvement, taking one side then demanding that the only way a solution is going to be found is if the other side surrenders will not help our standing. If we are going to get involved then we need to be neutral.
The US would resent any outside interference in our local affairs, what logical reasoning concludes that our interference won't have the same effect.
Again this is very simplified and not meant to cover every nuance.

As I said they may not like our lifestyles but that's not why they started to attack us, we have other things going for us.

Now how do you suggest we stop them hating us? we can't kill them all, and as a tactic it's not really endearing.

BTW-

In our "hugely Christian land" where do you go to find youngsters

imbued with the duty to shed Islamic blood?

Hell, they teach the anti-west message in mosques right here in America.

jesus camp jesus camp 2

Allahu Akbar! is on every student's lips.

So it's wrong to say "god is great" ? Even as an atheist I don't think it's wrong saying it. It's a different matter when this fictional character is used to justify doing bad things though.

Are you saying that "god is greater than everything" is not taught in churches and by almost everyone up for election? Do you disagree that "god is greater than everything"? or just if it's said by a muslim and it might be a different god from your own?
You seem unwilling to see the difference between that message and its use as rhetoric to stir up emotion. Do we not see it from those that wish to put the ten commandments in every public building?
Are you suggesting that there is no anti-muslim rhetoric? glenn beck came straight out and asked our first muslim lawmaker if he sided with the US or the jihadists, not because of anything the lawmaker said or did, but simply because he is a muslim. Heck, you are using the actions of extremists to stir up anti muslim emotions.
Will you concede that there is a huge difference between someone who is fanatically religious and someone who is fanatical and uses religion as a tool?

Islam is a peaceful religion, as is christianity. There are those that interpret the "holy books" to reflect their personal views instead of looking at them for "guidance"
As an example, Jesus was about forgiveness. He stepped in and prevented an execution "let he who is without sin cast the first stone". So why do so many christians here support the death penalty and go with "an eye for an eye"?



In the US there has always been a bogeyman and the rhetoric about that bogeyman is often based more on bias and the need to demonise than fact.

[ilw]

They think a lot of what we accept as a normal part of life, in a free society, is sinful. They want everyone else to join their religion and follow their belief system.

A bit like catholicism then.

Nope, Christianity teaches forgiveness, not fatwah.

You're still as predictable btw.

JP that isn't much of a rebuttal. I think Ava's point was accurate; correct me if i'm wrong, but catholicism does teach that various things that regularly happen in the west are sinful (mostly relating to sex) and does teach that you should try to convert people.

[JPaul]

How does that change the original point. He said blah, I said blah was wrong.

He's deflecting the point, as always.

If I say Milwall supporters cause trouble and have a bad reputation as a travelling support. Then you say, well so do Valencia supporters, it does not in any way change the fact that Milwall supporters are trouble makers.

He was wrong in his original contention, so rather than trying to defend it he spoke about something else. It's old hat.

There's also a World of difference between saying that you think someones actions are wrong and killing them for it. There are no Christian fatwahs.

The Pope says, says mind you that a certain group have a violent way of dealing with things. They prove him wrong by burning churches and by shooting people. Hm, how does that work well.

I'm not even answering anything regarding the inquisitions, as it's another old hat argument about something that happened hundreds of years ago and was done in the name of some people. Or do we continue to despise modern Germans because of the holocaust.

Bearing in mind, that people saying they have God on their side is entirely different from religious leader talking, or giving edicts. I can assure you, George W Bush saying he has God on his side does not mean he is speaking for Christians. However Muslim leaders making proclamations are speaking as heads of their Church.

[ilw]

I think Ava's point was valid, it was a people in glass houses type comment. Ava didn't make any point about violence

They don't hate our way of life, or our customs and morals ...

Yes they do.

They think a lot of what we accept as a normal part of life, in a free society, is sinful. They want everyone else to join their religion and follow their belief system.

I felt that in your above comment the implication was that: regarding western life as sinful and wanting others to join your religion; was somehow an example of hating western morals and our way of life. Imo thats a strange comment because anyone from This to me is a strange comment because almost all religious people will probably find much of western life sinful and the conversion comment is strange coming from a christian, considering that christianity is a strongly proselytising religion.


sorry above post is incomplete i got bored. religion sucks end of story

[JPaul]

I think Ava's point was valid, it was a people in glass houses type comment. Ava didn't make any point about violence

Yes they do.

They think a lot of what we accept as a normal part of life, in a free society, is sinful. They want everyone else to join their religion and follow their belief system.

I felt that in your above comment the implication was that: regarding western life as sinful and wanting others to join your religion; was somehow an example of hating western morals and our way of life. Imo thats a strange comment because anyone from This to me is a strange comment because almost all religious people will probably find much of western life sinful and the conversion comment is strange coming from a christian, considering that christianity is a strongly proselytising religion.


sorry above post is incomplete i got bored. religion sucks end of story

He said ""They don't hate our way of life, or our customs and morals .."

That's simply not true.