What Did They Die For?

[j2k4]

That is a long task that will take generations, but to start with I would look deeply into our foreign policy. We need to start being minimalists when it comes to interfering in the affairs of other nations, and when we do deal with others we need to stop looking at things purely from "what benefits us".
We can work with other nations without interfering with their internal affairs.
The US works best when it is helping in situations such as natural disasters. This can be enhanced with international coalitions to step in to prevent things like genocide.
In conflicts where we have no direct military involvement, taking one side then demanding that the only way a solution is going to be found is if the other side surrenders will not help our standing. If we are going to get involved then we need to be neutral.
The US would resent any outside interference in our local affairs, what logical reasoning concludes that our interference won't have the same effect.
Again this is very simplified and not meant to cover every nuance.

As I said they may not like our lifestyles but that's not why they started to attack us, we have other things going for us.

Now how do you suggest we stop them hating us? we can't kill them all, and as a tactic it's not really endearing.

BTW-

In our "hugely Christian land" where do you go to find youngsters

imbued with the duty to shed Islamic blood?

Hell, they teach the anti-west message in mosques right here in America.

jesus camp jesus camp 2

Allahu Akbar! is on every student's lips.

So it's wrong to say "god is great" ? Even as an atheist I don't think it's wrong saying it. It's a different matter when this fictional character is used to justify doing bad things though.

Are you saying that "god is greater than everything" is not taught in churches and by almost everyone up for election? Do you disagree that "god is greater than everything"? or just if it's said by a muslim and it might be a different god from your own?
You seem unwilling to see the difference between that message and its use as rhetoric to stir up emotion. Do we not see it from those that wish to put the ten commandments in every public building?
Are you suggesting that there is no anti-muslim rhetoric? glenn beck came straight out and asked our first muslim lawmaker if he sided with the US or the jihadists, not because of anything the lawmaker said or did, but simply because he is a muslim. Heck, you are using the actions of extremists to stir up anti muslim emotions.
Will you concede that there is a huge difference between someone who is fanatically religious and someone who is fanatical and uses religion as a tool?

Islam is a peaceful religion, as is christianity. There are those that interpret the "holy books" to reflect their personal views instead of looking at them for "guidance"
As an example, Jesus was about forgiveness. He stepped in and prevented an execution "let he who is without sin cast the first stone". So why do so many christians here support the death penalty and go with "an eye for an eye"?



In the US there has always been a bogeyman and the rhetoric about that bogeyman is often based more on bias and the need to demonise than fact.

You've wasted a while lot of cyber-ink in order to avoid addressing the question of "what-to-do-about-it", given the absolute fact that Bin Laden's rhetoric and actions are part-and-parcel with the entire anti-U.S. sentiment/movement/jihad/indoctrination taking place in schools and mosques throughout the mideast as well as everywhere in the west.

Look at the riots in France, ffs...and, Ava? I'm pretty fucking sure that information can be had from sources other than Fox, so shove that simplistic view up your no-doubt expansive ass.

Vid, you drop the entire blame at the feet of American foreign policy, with extra emphasis on Bush's tenure.

What of it?

The situation remains, as must our resolve to fight, rather than appease it.

Leaving aside for a moment your claim as to the blame-worthiness of any number of causes, you have yet to serve up any sort of relevatory countermeasures, apart from vaguely imputing it is our lot to "take the medicine we've got coming" due to the "boorish behavior" we've exhibited to date.

[HeavyMetalParkingLot]

Islam is a peaceful religion

* "Fight and slay the pagans [Christians] wherever ye find them and seize them, confine them, and lie in wait for them in every place of ambush" (Surah 9:5)
* "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the last day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and his apostle nor acknowledge the religion of truth of the people of the Book (the Jews and the Christians) until they pay the Jizya [tax on non-Muslims] with willing submission and feel themselves subdued." (Surah 9:29)
* "Those who follow Muhammad are merciless for the unbelievers but kind to each other." (Qur'an 48:29)
* "Enmity and hatred will reign between us until ye believe in Allah alone." (Qur'an 60:4)
* Say to the Unbelievers, if (now) they desist (from Unbelief), their past would be forgiven them; but if they persist, the punishment of those before them is already (a matter of warning for them). And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily God doth see all that they do. (Qur'an 8:37-39)
* And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God; but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression. (Qur'an 2:193)
* "Fight the unbelievers in your surroundings, and let them find harshness in you." (Qur'an 9:123)
* "For he who believes in the Trinity, "the Fire will be his abode … a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemer." Qur'an (5:72-73)

Sorry, just wanted to point out that Islam is not so peaceful as it is made out to be.

[vidcc]

Islam is a peaceful religion

* "Fight and slay the pagans [Christians] wherever ye find them and seize them, confine them, and lie in wait for them in every place of ambush" (Surah 9:5)
* "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the last day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and his apostle nor acknowledge the religion of truth of the people of the Book (the Jews and the Christians) until they pay the Jizya [tax on non-Muslims] with willing submission and feel themselves subdued." (Surah 9:29)
* "Those who follow Muhammad are merciless for the unbelievers but kind to each other." (Qur'an 48:29)
* "Enmity and hatred will reign between us until ye believe in Allah alone." (Qur'an 60:4)
* Say to the Unbelievers, if (now) they desist (from Unbelief), their past would be forgiven them; but if they persist, the punishment of those before them is already (a matter of warning for them). And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily God doth see all that they do. (Qur'an 8:37-39)
* And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God; but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression. (Qur'an 2:193)
* "Fight the unbelievers in your surroundings, and let them find harshness in you." (Qur'an 9:123)
* "For he who believes in the Trinity, "the Fire will be his abode … a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemer." Qur'an (5:72-73)

Sorry, just wanted to point out that Islam is not so peaceful as it is made out to be.

The bible can be used to find less than peaceful points...what of it?

[HeavyMetalParkingLot]

The bible can be used to find less than peaceful points...what of it?

As well you can. But if you read my original quote, you will see I mentioned Islam. I just found it funny saying Islam is a peaceful religion and reading part of the Islamic holy text saying fight and slay non-Muslims, seize and confine them and ambush them.

[vidcc]

You've wasted a while lot of cyber-ink in order to avoid addressing the question of "what-to-do-about-it", given the absolute fact that Bin Laden's rhetoric and actions are part-and-parcel with the entire anti-U.S. sentiment/movement/jihad/indoctrination taking place in schools and mosques throughout the mideast as well as everywhere in the west.

Look at the riots in France, ffs...and, Ava? I'm pretty fucking sure that information can be had from sources other than Fox, so shove that simplistic view up your no-doubt expansive ass.

Vid, you drop the entire blame at the feet of American foreign policy, with extra emphasis on Bush's tenure.

What of it?

The situation remains, as must our resolve to fight, rather than appease it.

Leaving aside for a moment your claim as to the blame-worthiness of any number of causes, you have yet to serve up any sort of relevatory countermeasures, apart from vaguely imputing it is our lot to "take the medicine we've got coming" due to the "boorish behavior" we've exhibited to date.

Ah that's right, bring out the old "why do you blame america first" line
You asked what could be done to counter the hatred against us in the general islamic world. My answer is we could make a start by addressing some of the reasons they hate us. We are not going to make them love us by killing them.

I did not say "we should take our medicine" I said we should try some preventative care. We should try to stop being such arrogant assholes. We can kill as many terrorist as we can.I'm all for killing bin laden and his gang, but that is not going to solve the problem.
Unless we address the reasons they hate us then the dead terrorist will just be replaced with a new one. If you keep kicking a dog eventually it will bite. If you cannot even consider that we are far from perfect then how could you solve the problem.
Obviously you think they should be on their knees in gratitude at our foreign policy.

The world is not black and white. You seem to think the only reason we were attacked is because we are not muslims and we do no wrong
Now I don't think they are perfect, but that doesn't absolve us of our own imperfections


Had it not occurred to you that they are being told that the reason we are fighting them is because we want to destroy islam?

religion is a tool used (by both sides) to stir fear and emotions....

[vidcc]

The bible can be used to find less than peaceful points...what of it?

As well you can. But if you read my original quote, you will see I mentioned Islam. I just found it funny saying Islam is a peaceful religion and reading part of the Islamic holy text saying fight and slay non-Muslims, seize and confine them and ambush them.

well I said

Islam is a peaceful religion, as is christianity.

didn't you find it funny that I said christianity is as well?

[HeavyMetalParkingLot]

didn't you find it funny that I said christianity is as well?

I didn't mention Christianity due to the fact I feel it is a subject we as Americans should be versed well enough on. Whereas Islam does not enjoy the same level of familiarity.

BTW: Buddism and it's subsects are the only ones who can claim the descriptive "peaceful". I mean I have enjoyed many a Happy Buddah plate special, but never a Happy Jihad plate special.

[j2k4]

You've wasted a while lot of cyber-ink in order to avoid addressing the question of "what-to-do-about-it", given the absolute fact that Bin Laden's rhetoric and actions are part-and-parcel with the entire anti-U.S. sentiment/movement/jihad/indoctrination taking place in schools and mosques throughout the mideast as well as everywhere in the west.

Look at the riots in France, ffs...and, Ava? I'm pretty fucking sure that information can be had from sources other than Fox, so shove that simplistic view up your no-doubt expansive ass.

Vid, you drop the entire blame at the feet of American foreign policy, with extra emphasis on Bush's tenure.

What of it?

The situation remains, as must our resolve to fight, rather than appease it.

Leaving aside for a moment your claim as to the blame-worthiness of any number of causes, you have yet to serve up any sort of relevatory countermeasures, apart from vaguely imputing it is our lot to "take the medicine we've got coming" due to the "boorish behavior" we've exhibited to date.

Ah that's right, bring out the old "why do you blame america first" line
You asked what could be done to counter the hatred against us in the general islamic world. My answer is we could make a start by addressing some of the reasons they hate us. We are not going to make them love us by killing them.

I did not say "we should take our medicine" I said we should try some preventative care. We should try to stop being such arrogant assholes. We can kill as many terrorist as we can.I'm all for killing bin laden and his gang, but that is not going to solve the problem.
Unless we address the reasons they hate us then the dead terrorist will just be replaced with a new one. If you keep kicking a dog eventually it will bite. If you cannot even consider that we are far from perfect then how could you solve the problem.
Obviously you think they should be on their knees in gratitude at our foreign policy.

The world is not black and white. You seem to think the only reason we were attacked is because we are not muslims and we do no wrong
Now I don't think they are perfect, but that doesn't absolve us of our own imperfections


Had it not occurred to you that they are being told that the reason we are fighting them is because we want to destroy islam?

religion is a tool used (by both sides) to stir fear and emotions....

I trot that out because that is precisely what you are doing - blaming America first.

In any case, your "start" is not a solution, nor indeed is it even a "start".

What it is, mostly, is insufficient.

BTW-get a new analogy...you can kick a dog (biting or not) until it dies, but you can't kick it until it multiplies.

[Ava Estelle]

He said ""They don't hate our way of life, or our customs and morals .."

That's simply not true.

Quoted out of context, of course, an old JP trait.

I used that as a rebuttal to j2k4's inference that that was the reason America was attacked, that it had nothing to do with their foreign policies. j2k4 seems to believe, and JP appears to agree, that bin Laden woke up one morning and decided to fight the west because he didn't like our freedoms. How naive does one have to be to believe that?

I trot that out because that is precisely what you are doing - blaming America first.

It seems to me that that is precisely where the blame should start, or do you still maintain that Iraq has WMDs, and Saddam harboured al Qaeda?

Tell me, do you believe any member(s) of the first Bush administration should be held to account, as Saddam has, for supplying the weapons and chemicals used by Saddam to murder his own people? Or for vetoing UN resolutions condemning him? Or George W for the illegal invasion of Iraq?

Maybe you still don't believe the CIA was waging a covert war in Afghanistan before the Russian invasion of 1979, even though that information is now de-classified? Or that people like bin Laden would be pissed off that you then allowed the country to descend into civil war when the Russians left, after promising to help rebuild the place and restore the government?

Oh no, let's not blame the lillywhite US government for anything, it's all THEIR fault.

[vidcc]

I trot that out because that is precisely what you are doing - blaming America first.
In any case, your "start" is not a solution, nor indeed is it even a "start".

you asked

How do you propose we "undo" Wahhabism?

Just how do you counter it without addressing the reasons the "wahhbist" attacked us in the first place? Again it seems you think the only reason we were attacked is because we are not muslims.
It's not about "undoing" their religious beliefs, it's about addressing the reasons they attacked us.
They didn't attack us because we are not muslims. Just as you are now saying they did, they are saying we are attacking them because they are muslims. Religion is being used as a tool by both sides.
mortal men made choices and then claimed god is on their side. Not the other way round.

Do you really think our foreign policy is beloved by the rest of the world? I mean right now we are not just intensifying the hatred in those that already hated us, we are making new enemies.

What it is, mostly, is insufficient.

BTW-get a new analogy...you can kick a dog (biting or not) until it dies, but you can't kick it until it multiplies.

The other dogs in the pack had puppies while you were kicking it

So mr. multicultural expert.

What's your big idea that will stop them hating us?

Try actually answering one