What Did They Die For?

[Seedler]

It's only 3000 soldiers.

Seriously, and I say that not out of ignorance and spamming urges but the death tolls everyday in the world wars were higher.

I've wanked more times in a day than that

[Snee]

Granted, some of them are foreigners out to make trouble (who wouldn't have been there in the first place, had they not come to "help"), and some of them are probably criminals, since that's something war can attract...but, a fair share of them (religious nutters or not), those "militants" who get recruited at mosques and that, would probably not be attacking anyone, if someone hadn't come and attacked their native soil, and so forth.

So yes, a fair lot of them would probably prefer some peace and quiet, if they knew their country wasn't occupied by people they percieved as hostile to them and their way of life.

As it is, more of them are probably recruited every day, all the people doing the recruiting need do is point out what's happening around them

And sticking in there and staying is probably not the best way of convincing them one's intentions are pure

Like I asked before...if the roles were reversed, if you were the one whose country was invaded and occupied by people with different views and a different notion about how your country ought to be run...would fighting that make you an insurgent, a terrorist, or a freedom fighter?

Comprehensively unresponsive, SnnY.

Most of the border-crossers and other rabble-rousers are Jihad-unto-death types, inculcated at the mosques to hate America, Israel, and the West in general, conditioned unconditionally, per "Allah's" dictate.

Do you suppose they'll go all docile and lovey-dovey if we leave.

O rly. How come they weren't all attacking Americans before you got there then?

According to papers such as the Washington Post (apparently its editorials range from liberal to moderate, tho', so you'll prolly have something to say about that )...the bulk of the insurgent army is believed to be something like:

The vast majority of insurgents, probably more than 90 percent, are believed to be Iraqis from the Sunni minority group that largely ruled the country before the fall of Saddam Hussein.

...

Now, the last 10% (like parts of the native 90%) may be more or less on the terrorist track, but would they be there if they didn't have american targets, and would they have the same support if you removed the common enemy the "insurgents" fight?

I daresay there'd be a whole lot more trouble if they all (the full 100%) wanted YOU dead, and I also have to wonder what they are all doing in Iraq, if they all really want to hurt the USA. It seems a roundabout way of getting to your nation, fighting where they can't get to the majority of your population, and hardly any civilians at all.

Furthermore, one has to wonder how many of them now view the USA as their great enemy, exactly because they were invaded by the US.

And no, you didn't answer my question.

[j2k4]

Like I asked before...if the roles were reversed, if you were the one whose country was invaded and occupied by people with different views and a different notion about how your country ought to be run...would fighting that make you an insurgent, a terrorist, or a freedom fighter?

Alright, let's start again.

To answer your question strictly on it's merits, I'd say that would make me a freedom fighter.

Now then:

Strictly on the merits, what percentage of the malcontents do you suppose fit that precise definition?

Not a religious sympathizer from across some border, but a native Iraqi, unaffiliated with Al Qaeda or any other regional terrorist groups, but a true native Iraqi, even ex-military.

As a side note, if we were even looser with our discretion, we could arm all the homesick ex-pat Iraqis in the metro Detroit area, send them home, and have them clean the whole country out.

[bigboab]

As a side note, if we were even looser with our discretion, we could arm all the homesick ex-pat Iraqis in the metro Detroit area, send them home, and have them clean the whole country out.

Good idea J2 but it would not work. Kennedy/Eisenhower tried that with The Bay Of Pigs in cuba.

Just in case. Kennedy used ex Cubans, not ex Iraqis.

[Biggles]

Part of the difficulty in Iraq is the fact that there is not one insurgency but about 2 dozen.

There are Kurds who want an independent Kurdish state and who are inherently suspicious of both the Turks and the Arabs.

There are several Shia militias (not all of which are on speaking terms) many who have operatives in the military and the police (forming death squads to take out rivals).

There are Sunni insurgents who are ex Iraqi Ba'athists and would like a return to the brutal certainty of Saddam.

There are Sunni's who are radical Muslims - some Iraqi but also many AQ imports.

There are criminal gangs and black marketeers who kidnap, heist and generally scam everything going.

They all dislike each other and are killing each other at a rate of one every few minutes 24/7 365. The majority of the above are in fact Iraqi.

Then there are the Coalition troops. They are supposed to help keep this lot from killing each other whilst at the same time try to prevent the scams. The AQ Sunnis and some Iranian backed Shias sit in wait to take pot shots at the Coalition forces whenever they come out of barracks to attempt to enforce law on behalf of the iraqi Government (half of which is in cahoots with one of the above).

The more law and order fails the worse it gets and the easier it becomes for AQ types to wander in and out and plot. The Iraqis meanwhile are in a cycle of revenge and bloodlust.

I described the operation a few years ago as a folly - I have not been minded to change my position on what I have seen so far. However, we are well and truly painted into our corner. It is going to cost a lot more lives and money before we get out.

Sorry to be so cheerful.

[j2k4]

Part of the difficulty in Iraq is the fact that there is not one insurgency but about 2 dozen.

There are Kurds who want an independent Kurdish state and who are inherently suspicious of both the Turks and the Arabs.

There are several Shia militias (not all of which are on speaking terms) many who have operatives in the military and the police (forming death squads to take out rivals).

There are Sunni insurgents who are ex Iraqi Ba'athists and would like a return to the brutal certainty of Saddam.

There are Sunni's who are radical Muslims - some Iraqi but also many AQ imports.

There are criminal gangs and black marketeers who kidnap, heist and generally scam everything going.

They all dislike each other and are killing each other at a rate of one every few minutes 24/7 365. The majority of the above are in fact Iraqi.

Then there are the Coalition troops. They are supposed to help keep this lot from killing each other whilst at the same time try to prevent the scams. The AQ Sunnis and some Iranian backed Shias sit in wait to take pot shots at the Coalition forces whenever they come out of barracks to attempt to enforce law on behalf of the iraqi Government (half of which is in cahoots with one of the above).

The more law and order fails the worse it gets and the easier it becomes for AQ types to wander in and out and plot. The Iraqis meanwhile are in a cycle of revenge and bloodlust.

I described the operation a few years ago as a folly - I have not been minded to change my position on what I have seen so far. However, we are well and truly painted into our corner. It is going to cost a lot more lives and money before we get out.

Sorry to be so cheerful.

Well enough put, and I think that is exactly why things are at a low ebb in Iraq.

The coalition is but one of about two dozen distinct fighting factions involved, not to mention the terrorists-in fact, I don't know if this even has the potential to become a proper civil war precisely for that reason: No one faction is strong enough to carry the day.

It's like their national elections were, ffs...several hundred candidates, all with dissimilar loyalties/pedigrees.

[100%]

ps. They are still dieing for "it".

[ram82082]

our youngmen/women died for OIL, because they were told to

[ram82082]

It's only 3000 soldiers.

Seriously, and I say that not out of ignorance and spamming urges but the death tolls everyday in the world wars were higher.

I've wanked more times in a day than that

Thats whats reported, 5 soilders could have been killed in the time it takes to post this. Remember in the Army, if theres no body, theres no kill.

[Ava Estelle]

Most of the border-crossers and other rabble-rousers are Jihad-unto-death types, inculcated at the mosques to hate America, Israel, and the West in general, conditioned unconditionally, per "Allah's"

You can tell yourself this until you're blue in the face, it still won't be true.

They don't hate our way of life, or our customs and morals ... they hate the way we charge around the world as though we own it. They hate the way we sustain Israel, even when they are quite clearly in the wrong. They hate the way we indiscriminately kill their men, women and kids. In Afghanistan they hate the way we pay the warlords for keeping them oppressed, even allowing them to sit in the puppet government. In Iraq they hate the way we invaded on a pack of lies, and they hate the way we've treated them like shit since we got there. They also hate the way Saddam is sentenced to death, but those who sustained him, armed him, protected him at the UN, and urged him to carry out an unprovoked attack on Iran, are getting off scott free.

But of course, in your little Fox coloured world that counts for nothing, they should just sit back and take it, because the mighty US of A has god on it's side.