My 2 Cents

[mildthrill]

Maybe this is the wrong time to interject my thoughts since it's already been decided that the Wii in NOT next gen, but I'd like to argue that that's just not true!

I would say the generation gap is when there's a change or refinement in the way games are played that makes previous games feel out-dated.

Case in point: when the N64 came out, it wasn't the increased power alone that pushed the games forward, it was that combined with analog joystick. N64 and later PS1 games were being played in a way that couldn't be done before, and a new generation was born.

The NGC, PS2, and birth of the Xbox didn't have any new concepts driving it, but what it did do was do everything the previous generation did, and 10X better. Any veteran of Halo or other generational FPS who went back to play the previous generations great FPS GoldenEye of Perfect Dark (which were the shit in their day!) found them at the least clunky and very out-of-date. Again Graphics did play its part, but it was that combined with all other refinements that set this generation apart.

So my question with this new generation is what will, or have the big three done to set this generation apart gameplay-wise other then juice up the hardware? Am I going to get into these new systems and years later go back to play xbox or ps2 to find it unbearable to play for more then just novelty sake because the 360, ps3, and wii are just that much more refined?

The wii (imo) is the only one, that I see, capable of making me feel that way. I can imagine, once developers fully master the mechanics of the wiimote, that it would make playing a FPS where it takes moving a little joystick to aim the reticle then fire feel annoying instead of just pointing and cappin' bitches!

Don't get me wrong, I'm not going to claim that the 360 and PS3 AREN'T next gen; I'm simply making an argument that the wii is. Do I think that more powerful hardware would have made the wii better? Yeah, I am definitely bummed about the lack of HD, but even with only slightly better then last gen graphics, I still see it as fully capable of making me feel differently about how games should feel and play.

As far as how that plays out in the console wars, or if the wii can deliver on its potential, that's a wait and see situation. However I was in line Sunday morning at the local toy' r us with about 30 other adults/parents, and when the store manager came out to hand out tickets for consoles, when he asked who was there for a PS3, no-one responded. Everyone was there to get a wii only (not that there were any PS3's anyway).

[Cheese]

Double post.

[Cheese]

Maybe this is the wrong time to interject my thoughts since it's already been decided that the Wii in NOT next gen, but I'd like to argue that that's just not true!

I would say the generation gap is when there's a change or refinement in the way games are played that makes previous games feel out-dated.

Case in point: when the N64 came out, it wasn't the increased power alone that pushed the games forward, it was that combined with analog joystick. N64 and later PS1 games were being played in a way that couldn't be done before, and a new generation was born.

The NGC, PS2, and birth of the Xbox didn't have any new concepts driving it, but what it did do was do everything the previous generation did, and 10X better. Any veteran of Halo or other generational FPS who went back to play the previous generations great FPS GoldenEye of Perfect Dark (which were the shit in their day!) found them at the least clunky and very out-of-date. Again Graphics did play its part, but it was that combined with all other refinements that set this generation apart.

So my question with this new generation is what will, or have the big three done to set this generation apart gameplay-wise other then juice up the hardware? Am I going to get into these new systems and years later go back to play xbox or ps2 to find it unbearable to play for more then just novelty sake because the 360, ps3, and wii are just that much more refined?

The wii (imo) is the only one, that I see, capable of making me feel that way. I can imagine, once developers fully master the mechanics of the wiimote, that it would make playing a FPS where it takes moving a little joystick to aim the reticle then fire feel annoying instead of just pointing and cappin' bitches!

Don't get me wrong, I'm not going to claim that the 360 and PS3 AREN'T next gen; I'm simply making an argument that the wii is. Do I think that more powerful hardware would have made the wii better? Yeah, I am definitely bummed about the lack of HD, but even with only slightly better then last gen graphics, I still see it as fully capable of making me feel differently about how games should feel and play.

As far as how that plays out in the console wars, or if the wii can deliver on its potential, that's a wait and see situation. However I was in line Sunday morning at the local toy' r us with about 30 other adults/parents, and when the store manager came out to hand out tickets for consoles, when he asked who was there for a PS3, no-one responded. Everyone was there to get a wii only (not that there were any PS3's anyway).

Good post. The Wii is the only next-gen console I'd consider lowering myself to purchase because it is offering me a different type of gaming experience that I can't have on the PC. The other two next-gen consoles are, to me, just improved versions of what has gone on before with extras I don't want or need.

[Busyman™]

Maybe this is the wrong time to interject my thoughts since it's already been decided that the Wii in NOT next gen, but I'd like to argue that that's just not true!

I would say the generation gap is when there's a change or refinement in the way games are played that makes previous games feel out-dated.

Case in point: when the N64 came out, it wasn't the increased power alone that pushed the games forward, it was that combined with analog joystick. N64 and later PS1 games were being played in a way that couldn't be done before, and a new generation was born.

The NGC, PS2, and birth of the Xbox didn't have any new concepts driving it, but what it did do was do everything the previous generation did, and 10X better. Any veteran of Halo or other generational FPS who went back to play the previous generations great FPS GoldenEye of Perfect Dark (which were the shit in their day!) found them at the least clunky and very out-of-date. Again Graphics did play its part, but it was that combined with all other refinements that set this generation apart.

So my question with this new generation is what will, or have the big three done to set this generation apart gameplay-wise other then juice up the hardware? Am I going to get into these new systems and years later go back to play xbox or ps2 to find it unbearable to play for more then just novelty sake because the 360, ps3, and wii are just that much more refined?

The wii (imo) is the only one, that I see, capable of making me feel that way. I can imagine, once developers fully master the mechanics of the wiimote, that it would make playing a FPS where it takes moving a little joystick to aim the reticle then fire feel annoying instead of just pointing and cappin' bitches!

Don't get me wrong, I'm not going to claim that the 360 and PS3 AREN'T next gen; I'm simply making an argument that the wii is. Do I think that more powerful hardware would have made the wii better? Yeah, I am definitely bummed about the lack of HD, but even with only slightly better then last gen graphics, I still see it as fully capable of making me feel differently about how games should feel and play.

As far as how that plays out in the console wars, or if the wii can deliver on its potential, that's a wait and see situation. However I was in line Sunday morning at the local toy' r us with about 30 other adults/parents, and when the store manager came out to hand out tickets for consoles, when he asked who was there for a PS3, no-one responded. Everyone was there to get a wii only (not that there were any PS3's anyway).

The Wii has a new controller that's actually not new. (Xavix)

That does not make it next-gen in the least to me.

It is, however, fun.

Light gun, dance mat, trackball, paddles.....oh my.

[Busyman™]

No not really, it's not just graphics etc. I think you also have to take into account periferals, hardware the way it's built, plus the media it uses, for example the PS, Dreamcast both were Next gen with the jump to CD, the Xbox and PS2 moved to dvd.......now the Xbox 360 is STILL on dvd, it still has the removable HD etc, the PS3 uses Blue ray and multimedia card reader both have not been done before out of the box. Wireless controllers are nothing new. I've heard people say about the Red Steal controllers, realistically they are nothing more than Light guns which have been around for years.

So you are saying that the 360 isn't next-gen cuz it doesn't offer games on a larger storage medium? The games could be on cartridge and they came out the same, they are the same.

Agreed but what system has more games out of the box? The PS3.

lol now you're arguing with me that the PS3 is better?

Huh? No, I'm not a fanboy of either. I simply said that the PS3, and the PS2 before it automatically have a fanbase.

The thing that puts the PS3 over the top is the Blu-Ray player though. Many people look at the price of the players now ($800 and up), see the PS3 for $600, and consider it a bargain on that alone.

And look back to 2000 when the PS2 came out, how much was a DVD drive and media, especially dual layer.

DVD was already out for years.

I did say that.

Where?

plus to bring it anywhere near the quality of the ps3 with reguards to drives etc it will add 50% of the purchase price to the 360 at present.

Actually thought I'd been more specific than that but it's basically what I meant.

Yeah cuz that wasn't the same at all. I was simply saying that Sony would win regardless if the 360's game quality was on par with it. Again, Sony has the huge base.

I don't think it'll be utilized to the fullest. With PS2, games that utilized it's full potential didn't come out 'till in the end systems cycle. From what I read, the PS3 is even harder to program games for.

Not true, Final Fantasy x was massive with supurb graphics and sound and came out very early on, GTA vice city was also pushing the PS2's media and hardware and came out what 2 years ago? and both on 1 disc.
And besides, game developers have new technology to work with giving them more freedom to do what they have wanted to in years before.

GTA VC's graphics were not great at all. FFX had great cutscenes. They both were no powerhouses.

Agreed. The only drawback to GOW is it's shortness. I beat it in 2 sittings and it was less than 10 hours.

Yes and I think possibly because they conentrated too much on looks, a mistake Sage learned only too well with the Mega-CD.

Onto insane mode then?


I don't know if concentrating on graphics shorted the game since it also plays well. However, they could have had the game perfect if:

1. They shoulda nixed Casual mode. The game is too easy that way and people will always start there for there first impression. They shoulda called it easy. I woulda skipped it then. Insane mode is excellent. In some cases, 3shots and you're dead. It is the perfect difficulty. Locusts are harder to take down. They are monsters they are supposed to be and not just soldiers with different skin.

I don't know how it took you even 10 hrs to complete. I finished the game in two long sittings....but that might just be my higher skill level.

2. They shoulda had at least 2 more levels. The game ending on the train was a bummer. (it was a nice level though)

AND WHY THE FUCK YOU DIDN'T GET TO FIGHT THE BROMAK!

I'm talking how good the system was and not how much it sold.

The PS2 came out before the Xbox and was backward compatible so should have sold more.

The Xbox came after so it should have had better graphics. The stir for the PS3 is about the same around as the 360. I remember people camping out for the 360 as well.

Not true in both points, the 360 is back compatable and I think PS3 sales will pass it quickly.
As for camping out etc, I don't remember anyone being killed, stabbed, beaten, robbed at gunpoint for a 360, many examples of that with the PS3, as stupid and rediculas as it maybe it shows the impact it has had.

But the Xbox had no precursor and so no immediate fanbase. The PS3 has had a fanbase since the PS1. The move up to the next system didn't short the consumer their games.

There were robberies and camping out for the 360. Sony learned from M$ about having shortages to stir up hoopla on a system. The people also learned.

For instance, I learned to get myself some PS3s since I didn't think of getting in on the 360 craze. 360 profit selling was going strong for 2 months after it launched. People remember that and jumped in (and also robbed) to get on the next bandwagon.

Again, I just don't think it'd be utilized. DVD-9 was around with PS2 and there were maybe 10 games that came out in that format. I just don't think it'll be games needing over 25 GB and if so, it'll be a handful.

Thats the point, thats what developers are always striving to do.
But I guess only time will tell.

True. That and simply being Microsoft lol

What does that mean?

Sony has much much better PR and commands a hell of a lot more respect from the public, I know many people who did and wont by an Xbox simply because it's microsoft. It was meant as a kind of joke in the same way you type M$.

Well because the games would cost a shitload. Unlike DVD, Blu-Ray is brand spanking new and costs a motherfucker. Cost in manufacturing won't go down for years.

You mean like DVD's when they first came out?

Okayyyyy....The PS2 didn't come out when DVDs came out. I think it was 3 years after. In the current case, they are bringing out a format with the system.

That's a big difference.

Now let's take one of the Xbox's biggest games, Ninja Gaiden. If you made that game in HD, it wouldn't need over 25 GB let alone 75 GB (1 50 GB & 1 25 GB disc). Ninja Gaiden was 6 GB.

And make the same game with Next-gen graphics, sound and gameplay and it'll be a hell of a lot bigger no? Tripple the graphics, tripple the size of game , you end up with 18gb.....you said yourself resistance is 17gb...how big is that game in terms of longevity?

I haven't beat Resistance yet. Now if that game is the same length than GOW then what? The graphics are on par with GOW if not slightly worse.

[GepperRankins]

i spent my wii money on the 360 instead. not worth getting for few months IMO. i'll probably get it the minute it is.


i gotta say even as a nintendo fanboy, xbox360 is way ahead of the wii and it's got nothing at all to do with the hardware.

the first game i played that i considered next gen was animal crossing on the DS and that's because it's (almost) seamlessly multiplayer. it's 2006 and nintendo still won't use online properly. the only online game that we can guarantee will make it to wii is farcry.


i've only played four games and about twenty demos and as far as the multiplayer goes i could never say "it could do with....". the way the games work online so seamlessly, even with split screen; it seems bizarre that nintendo can only just get limited features online multiplayer on the odd game.


forget what PR people say, for now and the foreseeable future, microsoft pwn nintendo and it's because of the intuitive gameplay and interface

[GepperRankins]

Now let's take one of the Xbox's biggest games, Ninja Gaiden. If you made that game in HD, it wouldn't need over 25 GB let alone 75 GB (1 50 GB & 1 25 GB disc). Ninja Gaiden was 6 GB.

which mong said this? high definition has nothing to do with texture sizes or compression or anything like that

[Jon L. Obscene]

So you are saying that the 360 isn't next-gen cuz it doesn't offer games on a larger storage medium? The games could be on cartridge and they came out the same, they are the same.

Pretty much, IMO a next-gen system is one which upgrades everything which Sony have done, graphics, cpu, sound, memory, drives, periferals, media, design, extra's, online etc etc etc the list goes on, the only thing 360 did was graphics, cpu and sound and made stick on skins for the front.

DVD was already out for years.

Yes but look at the price of it when the PS2 came out, up until maybe 2 years ago dvd media and hardware was expensive.

[QUOTE]I did say that.

Yeah cuz that wasn't the same at all. I was simply saying that Sony would win regardless if the 360's game quality was on par with it. Again, Sony has the huge base.

This is true but there's is a reason for that..because the PS systems are better!

GTA VC's graphics were not great at all. FFX had great cutscenes. They both were no powerhouses.

I never said GTA had wonderful graphics.
And I'm sorry but they were both huge powerhouses, FFX was the biggest game to date with the best visual arts and GTA VC was GTA 3 but twice as big in every way.

I don't know if concentrating on graphics shorted the game since it also plays well. However, they could have had the game perfect if:

1. They shoulda nixed Casual mode. The game is too easy that way and people will always start there for there first impression. They shoulda called it easy. I woulda skipped it then. Insane mode is excellent. In some cases, 3shots and you're dead. It is the perfect difficulty. Locusts are harder to take down. They are monsters they are supposed to be and not just soldiers with different skin.

Agreed 100%

I don't know how it took you even 10 hrs to complete. I finished the game in two long sittings....but that might just be my higher skill level.

What do you call a long sitting?
I don't actually know how long it took, I included while it was on so that includes piss breaks, drink breaks, homework help breaks etc.

2. They shoulda had at least 2 more levels. The game ending on the train was a bummer. (it was a nice level though)

Yeah agreed, interesting and fun level but not a "Final" level by any means.
We see that all too often in games of late.

AND WHY THE FUCK YOU DIDN'T GET TO FIGHT THE BROMAK!

Yeah would have made a good pre-final boss.

There were robberies and camping out for the 360. Sony learned from M$ about having shortages to stir up hoopla on a system. The people also learned.

For instance, I learned to get myself some PS3s since I didn't think of getting in on the 360 craze. 360 profit selling was going strong for 2 months after it launched. People remember that and jumped in (and also robbed) to get on the next bandwagon.

Thats actually a good point well made.

Okayyyyy....The PS2 didn't come out when DVDs came out. I think it was 3 years after. In the current case, they are bringing out a format with the system.

That's a big difference.

This is true but I still don't think it will take as long to come down in price because the interest will be higher. And like I said above, dvds were still at a very high price when the PS2 came out, I guess it's another thing only time will tell.

I haven't beat Resistance yet. Now if that game is the same length than GOW then what? The graphics are on par with GOW if not slightly worse.

Well like I've said lots of times, Resistance is a Launch title, GOW is the flagship 1 year on. And from what I've heard resistance is a fair bit longer.

@The..... Of course the 360 pwns the Nintendo Urine.
I reckon Nintendo will be the next giant to be knocked off the gaming platform and the only thing that might save it is it's apeal to children because there are more kids games on the system.

@Mildthrill.... No, the wii is not a next gen system and no the hand thingies are nothing new as BM said, hell I had a light gun 20 years ago for my spectrum, it's the same thing.

Jonno

[GepperRankins]

you can't put a definition on "next-gen". consoles have a 5-6 year life cycle then the next increment is released. nintendo wii is as "next gen" as the PS3.

fact.

[Jon L. Obscene]

That is true yes, but I think when it comes to gaming systems the definition is there and not just a normal next in line generation thing.
For instance, no one would class the Sega saturn as next gen, but by your logic it is.
Difficult argument really, one which I couldn't find an answer to on google

Although I did come accross this, kind of ironic given the arguments.

Urban dictionary, 7th example of the definition of "Next Generation"

The Nintendo Wii

http://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...ext+generation



Jonno