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Thread: Is GW a lame duck?

  1. #1

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    ... and does it make any difference?

    The US version of democracy has always seemed strange to me, you elect two chambers of government, Congress and Senate, you then elect a president who is able to appoint cronies who were elected by no-one, form them into an 'administration', and then do whatever the fuck he wants.

    So now you have the two elected chambers unable to rule for at least the next two years. Shouldn't they have the power to override Bush now that the American people have said they don't like the things he's done?



    "I don't want to say that George Bush is a lame duck, but this morning, Cheney shot him".
    Bill Maher

  2. The Drawing Room   -   #2
    Skiz's Avatar (_8(I)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ava Estelle View Post
    ... and does it make any difference?

    The US version of democracy has always seemed strange to me, you elect two chambers of government, Congress and Senate, you then elect a president who is able to appoint cronies who were elected by no-one, form them into an 'administration', and then do whatever the fuck he wants.

    So now you have the two elected chambers unable to rule for at least the next two years. Shouldn't they have the power to override Bush now that the American people have said they don't like the things he's done?



    "I don't want to say that George Bush is a lame duck, but this morning, Cheney shot him".
    Bill Maher


    No wonder it seems strange to you, you don't understand it.

    Bush isn't electing "cronies", nor is he able to do "whatever the fuck he wants". I'm also not at all sure why you say that our legislature isn't able to "rule" for the coming two years.

    You need to do some reading about the United States Legislative Branch. Study the Executive Branch if you'd like to learn about Bush's "cronies".
    Last edited by Skizo; 11-28-2006 at 01:34 PM.



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  3. The Drawing Room   -   #3
    Wouldn't it have been a tad more informative if you'd pointed out my 'mistakes' instead of recommending reading material?

  4. The Drawing Room   -   #4
    Skiz's Avatar (_8(I)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ava Estelle View Post
    Wouldn't it have been a tad more informative if you'd pointed out my 'mistakes' instead of recommending reading material?
    Well, I did point out your mistakes - the major ones at least, but you need to do some reading if you really want to be educated on the subject. There is a great deal to learn, but the essentials can picked up in some basic reading.

    Get to it then.



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  5. The Drawing Room   -   #5
    OK, so tell me why congress can't order Bush to quit Iraq?

    And which elections did rice, Rumsfeld etc get elected in?

  6. The Drawing Room   -   #6
    vidcc's Avatar there is no god
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    I think the last word in the title has a letter wrong

    Yes there are unelected appointees in high level administration positions.

    On the system.
    The idea was to have co-equal branches of government to keep checks and balances and prevent a "king" situation. Yes it can lead to deadlock, but sometimes deadlock is the least damaging. Usually it leads to compromise, not always sensible or beneficial compromise. I see you like maher, he summed up how silly some can be
    New Rule: Politics is about compromises. Really stupid compromises.

    That's how we got such laws as... Blacks are 3/5 of a person. Slaves are property, unless they make it to Ohio. Interning the Japanese, but not the Germans. Slaughtering the Indians, but letting the ones who survive run the Keno parlors. Porn, but not hardcore porn. Booze, and then no booze, and then booze again. But no pot. Except medical marijuana. Which is legal to possess, but illegal to obtain. And my favorite; you can't have stem cells, except the ones we already have.
    With one party holding all branches there has been little in the way of accountability. It will be interesting to see how things play the next two years....I expect to be reading and hearing "executive privilege" a fair bit.

    Sometimes even when one party holds all the branches they assume a self imposed lameness and do little
    The outgoing republican controlled 109th congress has only passed 2 out of 11 spending bills, it has decided to put off the remaining 9 until the new year, thus leaving almost a half-trillion dollars of spending bills for the incoming Democratic majority.
    Sen. Saxby Chambliss (R-GA) admitted that political considerations may be behind the inertia, stating, I know a lot of folks just as soon not to see them done this year and let the Democrats struggle here next year.
    They are leaving important spending bills behind so the can hinder the opposition party. It looks like they will work just 4 days when they get back next month.


    The system was designed this way for important reasons at the time, and for the most part I would say the system works as well as any other system of elected government. It has it's good and bad points.

    It's not the system that makes it work or stall. It's the people that are elected.

    its an election with no Democrats, in one of the whitest states in the union, where rich candidates pay $35 for your votes. Or, as Republicans call it, their vision for the future.

  7. The Drawing Room   -   #7
    vidcc's Avatar there is no god
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ava Estelle View Post
    OK, so tell me why congress can't order Bush to quit Iraq?
    I don't claim to be an expert on this part, but, the president needs the approval of congress to go to war, but it's the president that makes the choice to act on the approval.(simplified) I look at it as congress giving him the tools he needs to go to war if he decides he has to.
    Congress holds the purse strings, so they can stop funding the war, thus effectively forcing him to "quit"
    The president can veto bills, but congress can override the veto if it has enough votes to do so.
    To get over "veto proof" bills Bush has taken to using signing statements basically saying he reserves the right to ignore it. This is a questionable practice and I suspect one of the things that will be looked into when the democrats get the locksmith to open the "oversight rooms".



    Quote Originally Posted by Ava Estelle View Post
    And which elections did rice, Rumsfeld etc get elected in?
    With most appointees that will hold positions of power, he has to get approval from the senate. If the senate says no he can "recess appoint" his choice in between senate sessions, but this is time limited.
    Last edited by vidcc; 11-28-2006 at 03:39 PM.

    its an election with no Democrats, in one of the whitest states in the union, where rich candidates pay $35 for your votes. Or, as Republicans call it, their vision for the future.

  8. The Drawing Room   -   #8
    JPaul's Avatar Fat Secret Agent
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ava Estelle View Post
    OK, so tell me why congress can't order Bush to quit Iraq?

    And which elections did rice, Rumsfeld etc get elected in?
    This is actually a good place to start, seriously it is very interesting and explains a lot in a short space of time.

    Don't get chaps here to explain your mistakes tho', I'm not entirely convinced they understand it too well themselves.

    EDIT. I just read on in the thread and see that vidcc was explaining things. Please note I posted the above prior to reading his post. If mine reads as if it was referring to his please believe me that was not the case. It was a general comment.
    Last edited by JPaul; 11-28-2006 at 08:12 PM.

  9. The Drawing Room   -   #9
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    POTUS is the Commander-in-Chief.

    For lack of a better way of putting it, that means he is the leader of the government; C-IN-C (CINC) is not a meaningless term.

    He appoints a cabinet of people he deems qualified (Condi, Rummy, etc.) who are subject to the formality of a confirmation process by congress.

    They can accept or reject his candidates, but cannot appoint their own.

    POTUS can order acts of war by executive fiat absent congress' formal approval.

    Such actions are undertaken in the field by standing personnel; any prolonged effort would presumably require additional funding/staffing, at which point congress can opt in or out, thus registering it's approval or disapproval of POTUS' actions.

    A declaration of war by congress constitutes formal approval.

    BTW-

    A President halfway through his second term is by definition a lame duck, especially if his popularity is at a low ebb, but even more so if congress is oppositional by political party.

    The condition arises (these days, anyway) primarily from the jockeying of prospective candidates for the next go-'round, and the political party's desire to plump them for the voting public.
    Last edited by j2k4; 11-28-2006 at 09:05 PM.
    Think about how stupid the average person is, and then realize that half of 'em are stupider than that. -George Carlin

  10. The Drawing Room   -   #10
    Quote Originally Posted by vidcc View Post
    I don't claim to be an expert on this part, but, the president needs the approval of congress to go to war,
    I was going to question this, as I'm sure that isn't the case, but j2k4 has cleared it up.

    In Australia, a few years ago, there was a referendum on the head of state. The country was split into three camps, those who wanted rid of the British monarchy at all costs, those who wanted an elected president, and those who wanted to retain the status quo.

    The government allowed the referendum, but on their terms, what they didn't want was an elected president, because they felt he\she would have de-facto political power, and could undermine the authority of the government.

    So they set the referendum up with two choices ... keep things the way they are, or have a president elected by the government and opposition, sack-able by the prime minister.

    The people wouldn't have this, and voted for the status quo rather than a president they didn't want.

    To those of us outside the US, some of us anyway, we view the US president and his powers with a certain amount of fear, especially after you put the nuclear button on the table in front of Ronnie Raygun. The world as a whole doesn't like GW, we think he's dangerous, and we feel he'd rather jeopardise the world than admit he was wrong.

    The next two years will be interesting, the Reps impeached Clinton over a blow-job, do you think the Dems will impeach Bush, and if they did, would they leave it until his last year in office?

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