*official Matrix Chat* Reloaded & Revolution Chat

**scruge** · 05-21-2003, 05:38 PM

Originally posted by chessjr@21 May 2003 - 18:13
"Ok, here's a spoiler from someone at another forum who claims to have a copy of the script from Matrix revolutions"

chessjr, thanks I needed that.... LOL

what forum did you pull that from?

**tyk** · 05-21-2003, 06:03 PM

Originally posted by thegroggman@20 May 2003 - 06:50
Man o man...tyk...your really bringing it to the table. Youve posted more in your first two than most do in there first 50. Keep up the good work man

Thanks for all the support, thegrggman. I'm a newbie and I beleive only to speak when I'd something constructive to say.

Scruge (pardon me if my spelling is wrong, I'm having difficulty differentiate 'q' and 'g' with the underline), to answer ur question, yes I took the stand that Zion is in reality.

As I'd mentioned in my previous posts, the movie produce too many questions instead of providing answer. 14 pages pertaining this thread is a good indication of the above sentence. Not considering matrix within matrix concept had already filled us with tons of questions, further debating these questions with the possibility of 'Zion is within matrix' will only further complicate the debate or argument.

Assumption made: Zion is in reality.

Question raised: Why Architect deem it is necessary to keep rebuilding Zion after destroying it?

There are many possibilities, since I'd mention machine's curiosity, I'll go from there. To study something, say a polar bear, its always important to simulate the true or natural living environment of the polar bear. Sometimes, its not possible or not cost-effective to do so, like setting an observation post and testing lab in the north pole. End up we may have to simulate the environment in the lab. By doing so, the test result may not be 100% true, as the environmental / situation simulation is under controlled condition (ie human intervention). Matrix provides a perfect simulation to study human. But as it is simulation, it is not 100% true. Zion may not be created on purpose by the machine, instead it may be created by the 1st generation The One. However, due to certain circumstances, it was destroyed by the machine and Architect may realise the value of keeping Zion as a studying subject, hence allowing the rebuild of Zion.

How the machine can study something outside matrix?

Oracle or French guy may play a part. Lets assume they are programs studying human behaviours and emotions in the matrix, and later giving another roles of 'good cop and bad cop' roles regarding subject Zion. They may be the source helping people in Zion to obtain the necessary technology to enter matrix. Oracle doing her study on 'choice' by creating prophecy of The One, hence giving them 'hope' and motivation to live on. Fench guy is on the subject of 'cause and effect' and he may be there to corrupt or cast doubt to the believer of the prophecy. I may going a bit too far, putting argument on too much assumptions. But it may explain the study value as we can view prophecy as a form of religion and its effect on people.

In short, the machine study people of Zion by the way they interact with special programs when they enter matrix.

There are other issues that cannot fully explain in this context.

1) Why keep destroying and rebuilding Zion?
Is it a change in variable in term of field study? By restarting the parameters and inject minor alternations, then compare results to achieve a more reliable conclusion?

2) Whats with the numbers?
In my first post I'd raised this questions, how Architect determine the numbers of man and woman in Zion rebuilding process? A certain mathematical formula which only Architect understand, or just another random variable?

Scruge, I like ur idea of Matrix is to safe guard human through the Earth healing process. Yes it do answer lots of questions but some of them may not fit inside this picture:

1) Agents Smith hate human (from the 1st matrix movie), he may be exception, but his thinking may be popular among machine (human are like virus, destroying the host which give them life and support). Architect chip in abit by saying 'the extinct of human race is a loss the machine is prepare to bear'. The relationship between human and machine is not all time good.

2) What is the capacity Zion can hold? If whole survivng population can be accomodate into Zion, why rely on machine?

Its late. Stop here. Sigh, had not touch on the twins protectors yet...

**Schmiggy_JK23** · 05-22-2003, 06:02 AM

1. I think you are right on there... hence the fact that each version of the matrix is seemingly better, according to the arch, as it takes code from each progressive anomally, neo... seems like a similiar scenario

2. The numbers. Well, I would guess there is some sort of mathematicall probablity, based on survival rates, etc, etc, into his numbers. and the fact that they have done it 5 times, maybe the numbers have been different, and this is their latest "ideal" set

I dont think the idea of the matrix as a way for us to coexist with them, and safeguard us... no symbiotic relationship here... imho.

btw... i find it hard to believe that smith would want to fight against the dominating machines... he has all he needs, the ability to roam free in the matrix, and only grudge being against neo, and the humans, which he despises, and is now on of, how ironic.

**ZLOsiris** · 05-22-2003, 06:07 AM

i got a question. If zion is for those people who reject the matrix ..... how do they get there, i thought morpheus was the one who handed out the pills and brought them to zion by there choice and if the zion is in the matrix how do the poeple there have children or are the fetuses programs also?

**Schmiggy_JK23** · 05-22-2003, 06:16 AM

two scenarios:

1. Zion is real, as in, not run by the machines, really in the "real"world: Then, others outside of the matrix, find potentials, who may be rejecting the matrix, (while they are both inside it), or who are noticing or acknowledging that the matrix is fake, they find them, (not just morpheus, other crews, and people i presume, do the same thing), inside the matrix, and offer them the similiar choice that neo was given.

2. if zion is fake, ie, run by the machines, a sub routine/another program: then the machines weed out the anomalies, and allow them to think "they are leaving the matrix", ie neo, when in actuallity, they arent, just going to another part of the matrix, ie, zion, where they think they are free.

as far as having kids in the matrix, would just be another human in the incubator, plugged into the matrix as they are, and then the machines add the program to the matrix, making them think that is their real kid, etc...

**ZLOsiris** · 05-22-2003, 06:41 AM

you have pretty good insight Schmiggy any coments on my other post on this topic.

**ZLOsiris** · 05-22-2003, 06:43 AM

Originally posted by ZLOsiris@19 May 2003 - 05:24
The more that i thought about it the more it would seem that the smiths and Neo share something that unite the 2. If you noticed that the other smith was the only 1 to survive that attck would tell you that he had the same power that neo has outside the matrix, that he had to use it to save himelf and also went into a coma . I doubt that the matrix woulda spared him seeing that he is screwing up the matrix a bit by coping himself. Who knows maybe the smith was also one point in time" the one" or a version of it. The agents are what "the one" was. As in the first movie she says, wow how did you do that you move jus like they do.

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**Schmiggy_JK23** · 05-22-2003, 07:03 AM

i dont think smith was ever a "one".

I dont think it was necessarily a power they used to go into a coma... though im not set on the end of the movie, them being in a "2nd matrix, ie that version of zion", if that is the case, i think they both at some point, came to the conclusion of that reality, that they hadnt left the matrix, or at least, fully... ie the, "this feels different"...

i believe, that zion is probably real, but the one they went into at the end of reloaded, was not a real version, merely a matrix of it... thus it felt different, and thus, neo, and both smith, realized it, and both being part program, and exchaging data via their "convergence" in the first one, both just passed out from shock.

the reason i think smith lived the attack... i think i mentioned it... the matrix had already accounted for that body... think about... the instant smith infected that guy, taking over his mind, the matrix probably counted him as dead... and seemingly, after morpheus's 1 sentinel for each person in zion statement, they prolly know the exact #'s of people in zion, thus, at the attack on the outpost, they wouldnt even be looking for that guy, or register him as a threat maybe, as he was already logged as dead?

**ZLOsiris** · 05-22-2003, 07:09 AM

thanks i was wondering bout that and couldnt find a way around it. I jus rev doesnt have in holes in it. but that nuke winter theory from that other guys sounds very plausable.

**chalice** · 05-22-2003, 12:14 PM

Great thread Schmiggy.
I pretty much, tentatively go along with the technical consensus. I'm wondering at the minute at the attention to detail in the movie, particularly character names, which, (with most of the main protagonists anyway) seem to be grounded in Greek myth.
Just a few examples to be going on with;
Persephone was the daughter of Demeter and Zeus and wife to Hades, god of the underworld. She was abducted by Hades and held prisoner until she eventually came to love him. According to the ancient greeks this is how the seasons were divided. A bargain was struck between Demeter and Hades to permit Persephone to stay half the year in Olympus and half in the underworld; the sweetness of spring, the bitterness of winter, etc.
Neo has obvious conatations.
Morpheus, I find interesting, in that he was the Greek god of dreams, son of Hypnos, God of sleep. If I may quote from Ovid's Metamorphosis;

"King Sleep was father of a thousand sons - indeed a tribe -
And of them all, the one he chose was Morpheus who had such skill
At miming any human form at will.
No other dream can match his artistry
In counterfeiting men; their voice their gait,
Their moods,; and too, he imitates their dress precisely and the words they use
But he mimes only men..."

It takes no stretch of the imagination to draw parallels here with the Matrix character.
I'd be interested to explore the naming of the other characters. Some, I realise, are irrelevant but a lot of them add that extra texture to an already beautifully layered film.

Thoughts?