Palestine Or Israel?

[evilbagpuss]

EBP,

For the record, would you please state on which side of this debate your sympathies lie.
One word will suffice.
Palestine?
Israel?

The fact you felt the need to ask that question is rather telling. I will answer in one word.

Justice.

Why dont you try and answer some of the issues I've raised about the double standards at play here? Attempting to pigeon hole my views into a neat little pro-Israeli/pro-Palestinian box is a desperate strategy and is not conducive to an informed debate.

[clocker]

Originally posted by evilbagpuss@18 June 2003 - 07:20

EBP,

For the record, would you please state on which side of this debate your sympathies lie.
One word will suffice.
Palestine?
Israel?

The fact you felt the need to ask that question is rather telling. I will answer in one word.

Justice.

Why dont you try and answer some of the issues I've raised about the double standards at play here? Attempting to pigeon hole my views into a neat little pro-Israeli/pro-Palestinian box is a desperate strategy and is not conducive to an informed debate.

Your answer is unsatisfactory, sorry.

Justice for whom?

You are awfully quick to accuse others of evading issues, whist simultaneously refusing to respond to direct ( and unequivacable) questions.

I apologise for the multisyllable words. They seemed appropriate.

[evilbagpuss]

@clocker

Justice for all.

Israelis from Palestinian terror, US + European citizens from Islamic terror, Palestinian civilians from Israeli terror.

The point I've been making for 3 days now is that none of this will happen until the USA stops being so one-sided and helping the Israelis commit atrocities. What is so evasive about that?

I suggest you go back to my post before your "For the record" post. You seem to be more concerned with getting people to take sides than dicussing solutions to problems. I suggest you rethink who is evading the real issues here.

No need to apologise for using "multisyllable words" as you put it. It's only when they are used to take the discussion OT and distract people from the real issues that they bother me. btw I would refer to them as 'esoteric'' (I'm referring to jk24's words here, not yours) but hey, don't let an opportunity to insult pass you by

edited: removed ambiguity of one sentence and the chance for opportunists to insult and be evasive

[j2k4]

Originally posted by evilbagpuss@18 June 2003 - 06:22

Your first fact is irrelevant, however regretful.

If you and the majority of Americans cant see the connection between the first fact, a 36 year occupation funded and supported by the USA, 2 billion dollars worth of military aid each year and 9/11 then I'm afraid you guys will not see the end of terrorism for many years. Your right though, this is certainly regretful for all concerned. Particularly for your allies in Europe who will act as a 'buffer' due to them being an easier target for Al-Queda to reach.

The second is disingenuous; what right do Palestinian terrorists have to free land so as to form a country?

The second fact is anything but disingenuous. We've covered this "A civilized democracy shouldn't use the same tactics as terrorists" point 3 times now and you still avoid it. Again, your making statements without justifying them. Although I have to ask you, if the people who commit terrorist atrocities don't deserve the land, then do you agree that no-one who has served in the Israeli army deserves the land either?

btw I'm still waiting for an explanation of why my views are contrarian.

I would rather any lands foregone by Israel be earmarked for non-terrorist Palestinians;

Again I simply don't believe you. When S+A was arguing that the Palestinians should be driven from the land and that all Muslims are evil, you did nothing to distance yourself from his views. In fact you tried to make them more acceptable by diluting his rhetoric and attempting to put a PC spin on it. Add to this your utter lack of concern for the Palestinian civilians who have been systematically murdered for over 30 years and you will see why I find it hard to believe you.

Put it this way, if someone were agreeing with me, yet justified ethnic cleansing and stated that "all Jews are evil" I would swiftly distance myself from that individual.

This is the last time I'm going to do this.

This forum is where I post MY opinions.

If I agree with the views of another, I may so state.

I may also choose not to state such views, for whatever reason, that is allowed also.

I am not compelled to post in order to demonstrate agreement, disagreement, or any variations of either, no matter what point is posted, or what member is posting.

Just for you, EBP:

The fact of U.S. support for Israel is what it is.

Debating the morality of the fact does nothing for the Palestinians.

Fomenting the notion that the U.S. is, by virtue of it's intransigence vis `a vis terrorism, guilty by proxy of any terrorism that may occur in Europe is an astoundingly creative application of your fervid anti-U.S. sentiment.

In light of such artistry I can only say, in my experience, logic is not capable of the "elasticity" your scenario demands.

Your attempted refutation of my second point is incoherent; all I could gather from it was an accusation that I am guilty of PC "spin".

Nobody in their right mind would call me PC, and as for spin, well, that's an awfully easily used invective.

You don't even recognize agreement when it occurs, and what's worse, you obviously don't even read the threads before you post.

EBP, if you are going to assay a landscape of oil and canvas here, don't blame me if your powers to conjure an image or convey a thought thereby seem nothing more than an unfortunate clash of color or waste of paint and space.

As you have displayed your contrarianism to all who post here, I don't owe you an explanation for having made note of it.

There-I am done with you.

[clocker]

Originally posted by evilbagpuss@18 June 2003 - 07:46



The point I've been making for 3 days now is that none of this will happen until the USA stops being so one-sided and helping the Israelis commit atrocities. What is so evasive about that?

Gee, you're right. That is not evasive.

It is mindbogglingly wrongheaded.

Do you really imagine that abandoning Israel will stop Islamic terrorism?

Your professed desire for "justice for all" seems exclusive to me.

It doesn't seem to include "justice" for the scores of Israeli civilian casualties, for instance.

[evilbagpuss]

If I agree with the views of another, I may so state.

I dont recall saying otherwise....

The fact of U.S. support for Israel is what it is.

What an utterly inane statement, completely devoid of any meaning whatsoever. My house 'is what it is' but that doesnt give you any insight or information about it does it?

Debating the morality of the fact does nothing for the Palestinian.

On the contrary if a consensus can be formed that the US support is immoral I think it would help the Palestinians alot.

Fomenting the notion that the U.S. is, by virtue of it's intransigence vis `a vis terrorism, guilty by proxy of any terrorism that may occur in Europe is an astoundingly creative application of your fervid anti-U.S. sentiment.

So you are denying that US actions in the Middle-East have any effect on the level of terrorism in Europe? Was there any need to pack such a simple concept into such a loooong sentence?

Your attempted refutation of my second point is incoherent; all I could gather from it was an accusation that I am guilty of PC "spin".

Your 2nd 'point' was that Palestinian terrorists dont deserve the land. I dont recall saying they did. I merely asked you if your lofty morals apply equally to all who commit terrorist acts. They clearly do not.

As you have displayed your contrarianism to all who post here, I don't owe you an explanation for having made note of it.

haha, I knew I would never get an explanation for that one. you promised me one as well!

Again, many insults, a competent grasp of the English language and an amazing ability to duck and dive every point I have made. Your agility is astounding, perhaps a career as a boxer would be appropriate?

Now you are 'done with me' perhaps this thread can get back to the issues at hand.

edit: typo

[evilbagpuss]

Do you really imagine that abandoning Israel will stop Islamic terrorism?

Not completely or immediately no. I also dont recall mentioning 'abandoning' Israel. I was talking about the cessation of US support for Israeli atrocities. If that happened the moderate Palestinians would be less likely to support terrorist organisations who they see as there only hope. After 30 years of systematic slaughter who can blame them?

If you think it wouldnt make any difference you are sorely mistaken. Do you think that if the British had bombed Irish civilians for 30 years we'd have anything resembling a peace process?

If the Russians were still a superpower and they provided the Palestinians with military hardware you'd be the 1st to complain and I would be right behind you all the way.

It seems to me that you are the one with the exclusive idea of who deserves justice and who doesnt.

[clocker]

Originally posted by evilbagpuss@18 June 2003 - 08:07


Now you are 'done with me' perhaps this thread can get back to the issues at hand.

Excellent.

I believe that the "issues at hand" as defined by the title of this topic are "Palestine or Israel".

I am pro-Israel.

You?

[evilbagpuss]

I am pro-people.

Read the 1st post in this thread.

You will see that the real issue here is that it doesnt have to be "Palestine or Israel". That is the view of the guy who started this thread.

You really are obsessed with tying me down to one side or the other arent you? At least you have now admitted that you are biased towards one side.

There are people in Israel who believe what they're armed forces are doing is wrong. There are people in Palestine who believe what the terrorists are doing is wrong. (I have seen interviews with both on the 'biased' BBC)

Unfortunately these people are in a tiny minority on both sides. THAT is the obstacle to peace. You would do well to ponder that for more than a fleeting moment.

[clocker]

Originally posted by evilbagpuss@18 June 2003 - 08:27


Unfortunately these people are in a tiny minority on both sides. THAT is the obstacle to peace. You would do well to ponder that for more than a fleeting moment.

Very well, I shall.
As I do so, you would do well to ponder this...

The Palestinians have been used for decades by their Arab supporters as the straw man with which to goad the US.
They recieve substantial aid, both monetary and hardware, from several Arab nations.
The fact that this aid is cloaked and not a line budget item doesn't distinguish it from the aid provided Israel by the US in anything but name.

If you think it wouldnt make any difference you are sorely mistaken. Do you think that if the British had bombed Irish civilians for 30 years we'd have anything resembling a peace process?

Your continued comparison of Israel's plight with that of the UK v. IRA is ridiculous.
The British do not have millions of IRA supporters camped on their doorstep and thus have the luxury of a more measured response.

You have spent several days now, in several different threads, taking cheap shots at the US while claiming to be impartial or acting as an "educator".
Please drop the charade.
If you would only admit to being anti- American I would have far more respect for your posts.
If you act like a duck, walk like a duck and quack like a duck then you are a duck.

Now I'm off to ponder.