Palestine Or Israel?

[clocker]

Rat,

QUOTE 
Middle East experts say Arafat, who dislikes major rifts among Palestinians, was unwilling to risk a showdown with the increasingly popular suicide bombers, especially under pressure from Israel’s right-leaning prime minister, Ariel Sharon, who is reviled by Palestinians.


You want him replaced?

Are you mad?

No, are you?
I think Arafat's "interest" in the diplomatic process begins and ends with his own personal involvement.
Should Abbas be successful in forwarding the peace process, Arafat loses power.
Also, the proposed Palestinian constitution calls for the holding of free and democratic elections and the respecting of human rights, two conditions Arafat has shown zero interest in meeting.
If Arafat were sincerely interested in achieving a Palestinian state he would recognize that his continued presence is a factor in it's delay. He would publically and forcefully denounce Hamas, urge all Palestinians to support Abbas and step aside. I doubt that that will happen.

Its the attitude of the Right Wing Israeli government and now the USA that is making the Pallestinian people more and more intollerant.

Look at the REASONS that support for Hamas is growing...its a fact that it is, but there are REASONS. Take those reasons away, and support falls off.

It is also due to support and aid from Syria and Iran. It would be Syria's ( a hereditary dictatorship) and Iran's (a theocracy) worst nightmare to have a democratic Arab state suddenly appear on their doorstep. As we type, students are demonstrating in Tehran and the mullahs don't seem terribly agreeable to the demands for democracy in Iran. A democratic Palestine would make their position untenable.
Take those reasons away and support may fall off, too.

[evilbagpuss]

Originally posted by hobbes
If you are "pro-peace" why have you not attempted to find the middle ground with Clocker, who at no time has been "having a tantrum" or has needed to "calm down".

I have, by trying to get him to look at it from the opposite way round. i.e Palestinians being in the Jews position. I dont know if you've read all of this thread but he has lost the plot on more than one occassion.

I agree that the "laughing" bit was badly chosen but.. I've apologised for that already. It certainly wasnt intentional as it allowed him to ignore the question altogether. Hardly a 'victory' from my perspective.

Anyway getting back to it....

I think there are extremists on both sides who just want to kill civilians

I think that constant unquestioning US support regardless of Israeli atrocities increases the support for Hamas on the Palestinians side.

The Palestinian extremists would wipe out the Jews if the US dropped its support but NO ONE in this thread asides from clocker has even suggested that the USA should do that.

In a nutshell the Israelis get away with alot of stuff and it isnt even shown on most media channels. If it were any other country all hell would break loose. But because it rarely gets reported we have this consensus that its always those damn Palestinians who dont want peace, which therefore excuses any and all Israeli actions no matter how disgusting they are. This then increases Palestinian support for terror groups because democracy is doing nothing for them and so the cycle continues....

We've gotten to the position where people feel comfortable saying things like "Islam is evil" in public (on this forum) with little fear of criticism. I wonder what would happen if I stated "Judiasm is evil"? Unthinkable isnt it?

Anyway end of rant, end of my participation in this thread. I really cant see any consensus or agreement coming out of this no matter how patient/polite everyone is.

No malice intended here but... I genuinely think that some people participating in this thread are fuelled by hatred. Its as simple as that.

One final point for the US people reading this. Next time (if ever) you see a bunch of innocent Palestinian civilians (yes there is such a thing) killed in a totally unnecessary and indiscriminate attack... remember those are your hard earned tax dollars at work creating more terrorism for you guys to deal with in the future.

[ShockAndAwe^i^]

One final point for the US people reading this. Next time (if ever) you see a bunch of innocent Palestinian civilians (yes there is such a thing) killed in a totally unnecessary and indiscriminate attack... remember those are your hard earned tax dollars at work creating more terrorism for you guys to deal with in the future.

Your final point is laughable
Raise my taxes!
I think it's quite necessarry to attack terrorists that exclusively attack civilians, and use almost just as exclusively children to do it.
Why don't you give us your opinion on that point?
What do you think of these terrorists using high school students for 99% of there attacks on innocent civilians?
This is the height of cowardice, don't you agree?

[clocker]

Thank you, hobbes.
Like cool water on a fevered brow, your post.

I was nearly overcome with the urge to stamp my foot.

BTW,EBP, where are you from?
I seriously doubt that the people of your country are any more unified on the questions of the Middle East than you think we Americans are. Our support of Israel is hotly debated from Congress to the corner bar.

I also think that I've managed to hold onto the plot fairly well. Your inability to persuade me ( to whatever the hell your point has been) by dazzling rhetoric does not reflect on my intellect or powers of concentration.

[hobbes]

Wow, full blown overt bias, should have been there from post one. Keeps credibility if you post your stance. You claimed to be unbiased and have lied.

There is nothing wrong with being pro-palestinean, in fact, I welcome the input of both sides. The problem stems from the inflexibility of religion, and when there is mortal conflict, compromise/resolution may not be possible.

Contrary opinion to yours does not indicate hatred, I have none, neither does Clocker. I think both sides are insane.

I want the name of the person fueled by hatred and not a generality.

Americans don't give a crap about Israel, but we have as many Jews here as in Israel and these people are influential in our government and thus our governmental policies reflect this.

You claim that the Jews are just as guilty of terrorism as the Palestinians, I will fully grant you this, if you wish.

This goes back to my point that peace is not desired and never will be achieved, until one side kills the other.


As far as Islam is concerned, it tends to be in conflict with the "freedom of religion" philosophy in America, particularly when part of the Palestinean charter avers that a goal is to kill the Jews (rather than accepting their right to practice their own religion).

As for the Jews, we have Seinfeld and Jon Stewart, funny likeable guys, so the American people have more "touchstones" with the Jews than the Palestineans. Many of my friends are Jewish, but I know them as people, not Jews and the fact that I am agnostic is not a problem for them.

My point is that Jews are real people to us, they don't act "crazy" or "cruel", they dress like us and speak English. As for Palestineans, they are those crazy people throwing rocks on TV.

I just wanted to point out how general American sympathy sides with Israel. Jews are real people, not images on the TV.

As for the intervention of the US, what should we do? Just tell me what you would like and I will give it some thought.

Respectfully and peacefully,

Hobbes


Added a link to illustrate my hatred http://forums.anarchy-online.com/showthrea...?threadid=17747

[clocker]

As far as Islam is concerned, it tends to be in conflict with the "freedom of religion" philosophy in America, particularly when part of the Palestinean charter avers that a goal is to kill the Jews (rather than accepting their right to practice their own religion).

Hobbes, have you read the new Palestinian Constitution?
It's easy to google ( sorry, see: new member title).
It looks like a wonderful thing and all references to eliminating Israel are gone. Human rights are included as are women's rights.
All wonderful.
And completely opposed to the way any Islamic state in the region is ruled.
Hence my concern re: Syria and Iran.

[MagicNakor]

I don't know why I keep looking at this thread.

I think it's the slow-trainwreck mentality.

[Rat Faced]

Originally posted by clocker@21 June 2003 - 03:59

As far as Islam is concerned, it tends to be in conflict with the "freedom of religion" philosophy in America, particularly when part of the Palestinean charter avers that a goal is to kill the Jews (rather than accepting their right to practice their own religion).

Hobbes, have you read the new Palestinian Constitution?
It's easy to google ( sorry, see: new member title).
It looks like a wonderful thing and all references to eliminating Israel are gone. Human rights are included as are women's rights.
All wonderful.
And completely opposed to the way any Islamic state in the region is ruled.
Hence my concern re: Syria and Iran.

Its defenitly a step forward.

However the old charter was NOT "anti-jew" it was "anti-Israel".

Article 6 specifically states that Jews that were there already are classed as Pallestinians, people that came as part of the "Zionist Invasion" are the enemy...ie Israel.

If Israel had been a Christian State, they would still have been the enemy.


@ Clocker,

I do see your point re: Iran and Syria; funding comes from all over the region, and should be curtailed.

However this isnt since the mid '90s, this has been happening all along...

The increase in terrorism is since "The light at the end of the tunnel" was taken away from them....ie Israel (Sharron) unilaterally tearing up the previous Peace Process and reversing it.

The world has a choice:

Deal with the PLO, of which Arrafat is the leader, and which hasnt had a terrorist campaign in years (despite being attacked itself (Pallestinian Authority)) or deal with Hamas, which has the most support at the moment because the Pallestinian Authority is seen as not getting anywhere.

The trouble with dealing with Hamas is that its a Fundamental Organisation, that wants EVERYONE that is not practicing the Old Islamic Law (THEIR version) dead.

Israel is only the short term goal. Their long term Goal is the world...

In my opinion there is nothing you CAN negotiate with, with these people. At least the PLO is only a Nationalist Organisation...it can be negotiated with.

Negotiaiting with someone that was appointed, and isnt followed by any of the Pallestinians and so doesnt speak for any of them........seems a little backward, I mean none of them will listen. So whats the point?


So the answer appears to be (for me); let the Pallestinians SEE that the Pallestinian Authority is moving somewhere...give them the light at the end of the tunnel BACK.

This is not going to end terrorism overnight..nothing will. There are too many people wanting Vengeance for loved ones killed already, and there are the Religious Zealots (Hamas Hardcore) that will ignore it.

I think it will certainly turn the tide though, and in 10 years we may be back at the point we were 10 years ago....with the Majority of Pallestinians listening to the Authority, and then they CAN crack down on Hamas....if they tried at the moment, they'd lose the ensuing Civil War...

[human_pet]

Originally posted by Rat Faced@21 June 2003 - 10:49

The trouble with dealing with Hamas is that its a Fundamental Organisation, that wants EVERYONE that is not practicing the Old Islamic Law (THEIR version) dead.

Israel is only the short term goal. Their long term Goal is the world...

May I know where you get the idea that Hamas wants to take over the world? As far As I know,they only want their country to be free from zionists.....and I don't see anything wrong with that,Since they don't have much weopons other than rocks.I think it's only fair that they use other means (like "blowing themselves up") .

Salam/Peace

[The Knife Thrower]

Originally posted by human_pet+21 June 2003 - 11:04--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (human_pet &#064; 21 June 2003 - 11:04)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Rat Faced@21 June 2003 - 10:49

The trouble with dealing with Hamas is that its a Fundamental Organisation, that wants EVERYONE that is not practicing the Old Islamic Law (THEIR version) dead.

Israel is only the short term goal. Their long term Goal is the world...

May I know where you get the idea that Hamas wants to take over the world? As far As I know,they only want their country to be free from zionists.....and I don&#39;t see anything wrong with that,Since they don&#39;t have much weopons other than rocks.I think it&#39;s only fair that they use other means (like "blowing themselves up") .

Salam/Peace [/b][/quote]
I agree that theres nothing wrong with blowing themselves up. But getting some teenager to blow up a bunch of civilians is wrong. The true martyrs are the ones who blow up military targets.