Questions for Kermit ...

[vidcc]

Given enough time will other animals evolve to be as "achieved" as humans? Is it just we are at a different stage?

No, that's not how it works.

I know how evolution works.

animals evolve to make best use of their environment and the resources available. It is also a very slow process, and so requires a long period of time where their environment is fairly stable.

Now for some reason in prehistory, it became advantageous for a proto-human species to develop a big brain. We can speculate why this was, presumably it allowed them to visualise tools, and work as teams to capture larger prey.

Well already animals use tools and work in groups to catch larger prey

This all took millions of years though. It's hard to comprehend the timescales involved.

The intelligence and self-awareness was basically a by-product of the big brain. As was the ability to adapt to swift changes in environment and climate. Without the big brain, humans would probably have all perished in the last ice age.

We are only here by sheer fluke.

So what is to say that other animals will not "need" to evolve larger brains?
Having the larger brain is only part of it also, look at dolphins. Their physical predicament prevents them from using screwdrivers.
So given enough time it's very possible that other species could catch up with man.

[Barbarossa]

No, that's not how it works.

I know how evolution works.

So you say, but you're making it sound like the goal of evolution is intelligence, whereas in actually fact it is simply about survival.

Humans are not the pinnacle of evolution, in fact in the long term we may even be classified as an evolutionary failure, once we've succeeded in destroying our own habitat, and ultimately ourselves.

[vidcc]

I know how evolution works.

So you say, but you're making it sound like the goal of evolution is intelligence, whereas in actually fact it is simply about survival.

So what would stop other animals needing a larger "intelligence capacity" to survive? Man could have survived without the advances in intelligence he has today.
However allow me to clarify my point then, because that is not what I was saying.

Originally Posted by vidcc
Given enough time will other animals evolve to be as "achieved" as humans? Is it just we are at a different stage?

I said other animals, not all animals
There was a picture of an ape using a tool to balance (could use other animals as examples). A rudimentary act of course, but every journey begins with a first step so to speak. The brain and "Intelligence" would be but one part. It may evolve it may not.

Humans are not the pinnacle of evolution, in fact in the long term we may even be classified as an evolutionary failure, once we've succeeded in destroying our own habitat, and ultimately ourselves.

I agree with you 100% there (at the risk of somehow denying humans are special)

[Barbarossa]

Theoretically, there is nothing to stop another species developing intelligence and self awareness, and the ability to invent their own religions...

In fact, I read somewhere that originally there were many species of ape-like creatures who evolved at the same time as homo sapiens, and in the same way. We just happened to be very good at killing off the competition, and eventually wiped all the others out. (or assimilated them, this is unclear)

In practice, the chances of another species doing it now are billions to one.

As JPaul said, life has been around on Earth for nearly 4 billion years, and as far as we know, it's only in the last 2 million years or so that we've been around, and probably only in the last 10000 years or so that we've learned to shape our environment to suit us better.

This is a mere eye-blink in the history of the Earth.

Also, now that we're on the scene, over 6 billion of us and increasing, other species have very little opportunity to make an impression.

Large brains are an incredible resource-hog. Alot of energy needs to be spent in maintaining them. Maybe it actually is the only way for some other species to survive the influence of humans on the planet. Whether they will be given the opportunity to do so is unlikely.

[vidcc]

So basically you agree it could happen but you think it unlikely.

I think the odds are more 50/50 myself. Ok they haven't developed yet, but all things grow at a different pace. Man himself has been able to alter genetics faster than nature. Any advance in that direction could be delayed by man because of his destructive nature, but I believe he will not prevent it. Nature will keep trying and time favors nature.
My stance takes in infinite time from this point on, the amount of time that's passed so far isn't really important IMO. It's a kind of "tortoise and the hare" approach.

Originally Posted by Barbarossa
Humans are not the pinnacle of evolution, in fact in the long term we may even be classified as an evolutionary failure, once we've succeeded in destroying our own habitat, and ultimately ourselves.

I still think this is the best point on the entire subject. Added to this any other species that develops "intelligence" may do so in a different way to than we perceive it to be.

[thewizeard]

What we call the big bang was only "God" having a little flatulence.

Time is a different matter and is the internal energy flow of the all encompassing Being. It's an internal process, similar to what we experience and call, thought.

[Mr JP Fugley]

So basically you agree it could happen but you think it unlikely.

I think the odds are more 50/50 myself. Ok they haven't developed yet, but all things grow at a different pace. Man himself has been able to alter genetics faster than nature. Any advance in that direction could be delayed by man because of his destructive nature, but I believe he will not prevent it. Nature will keep trying and time favors nature.
My stance takes in infinite time from this point on, the amount of time that's passed so far isn't really important IMO. It's a kind of "tortoise and the hare" approach.

It is of course possible that other animals will develop a similar intelligence to ourselves, given enough species and enough time. However the point is they haven't. Not even close.

They may also evolve away from their basic instincts and become more self determining. They may find an evolutionary reason to have some system of morality. Who knows.

Point is we have these things and we, as a species are special. I'm not making a value judgement here, saying that we are better, worse or whatever. Just that we are, without question, special.

[ilw]

So basically you agree it could happen but you think it unlikely.

I think the odds are more 50/50 myself. Ok they haven't developed yet, but all things grow at a different pace. Man himself has been able to alter genetics faster than nature. Any advance in that direction could be delayed by man because of his destructive nature, but I believe he will not prevent it. Nature will keep trying and time favors nature.
My stance takes in infinite time from this point on, the amount of time that's passed so far isn't really important IMO. It's a kind of "tortoise and the hare" approach.

i think you're a bit overconfident with that 'haven't developed yet' there could very well have been other creatures approximately as smart as us, in fact i'd put the odds on that at 50/50 personally

[Mr JP Fugley]

So basically you agree it could happen but you think it unlikely.

I think the odds are more 50/50 myself. Ok they haven't developed yet, but all things grow at a different pace. Man himself has been able to alter genetics faster than nature. Any advance in that direction could be delayed by man because of his destructive nature, but I believe he will not prevent it. Nature will keep trying and time favors nature.
My stance takes in infinite time from this point on, the amount of time that's passed so far isn't really important IMO. It's a kind of "tortoise and the hare" approach.

i think you're a bit overconfident with that 'haven't developed yet' there could very well have been other creatures approximately as smart as us, in fact i'd put the odds on that at 50/50 personally

:h4r5h:

[vidcc]

i think you're a bit overconfident with that 'haven't developed yet' there could very well have been other creatures approximately as smart as us, in fact i'd put the odds on that at 50/50 personally

A good point which I hadn't taken into account in this thread. And I should be ashamed as a fan of the hitchhikers guide It's entirely possible that other animals are as smart or smarter and we are not smart enough to realise it. I had a hard enough time suggesting that other animals have any intelligence at all.

Can we all agree then that humans are special, even if we disagree on certain aspects of what is so special about them.

Can we also try to agree that other animals are special in other ways and on other levels.